Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
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Sin and Satanism

Sin and Satanism by Vexen Crabtree


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The Original Trap




One should consider the possibility if there was an Original Sin at all, and according to the Bible, I realized that was happened at Genesis was an Original Trap, not an Original Sin!

Let's see the Biblical statements:

[1] Gen 1:27-28, God creates male and female humans, and blesses them to be fruitful, multiply and replenish the earth. Thus ends the sixth day. It is rather likely that the "day" means "human years" or "human eons". The fact that Adam has lived 930 years, but God said that he'll die surely (Gen. 2:17 vs. Gen. 5:5), so it is clear that [a] God lied, or [b] the days of God are much longer than the days of humans. Since there was a 7th day after the 6th, we can assume that the created humans (Humans v1.0) replenished the earth in the meantime. I think the Bible uses the same word for the days of God vs. the days of humans, because of Mark 4:10-12... (Jesus loves you, huh?)

[2] According to Gen 2:5, we changed our minds, there's no (hu)man on earth. Where are Humans 1.0?

[3] In Gen. 2:7, God formes man out of dust of the ground. Praise the Lord! So there is the Humans v2.0, Homo Sapiens Sapiens?

[4] God plants a garden with the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and puts there the man.

[5] Gen. I. 2:16-17 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

[6] God forms the woman out of Adam's rib. I think he didn't find appropriate dust in Eden. Poor God. The two humans are living happily and naked and without knowledge in the Garden.

[7] According to Gen 3:5, the serpent points out that if the tree of knowledge of good and evil according to its name, must have some connection to the knowledge... of good and evil. It doesn't seem too silly that while one couldn't separate good from evil, it's not wise to expect them to do so. (see Gen. 3:22, where God states that man had become one of "them", he/she knows good and evil...). Adam and Eve doesn't even knew before that they were naked, and being naked is... wrong, so they should hide.

continued...

The Original Trap (continued)

My problems are:

[*1] God forgot to command the humans that they must obey only to his commands, and also forgot to mention them that the serpent wishes to lure them to trap. He surely knew about the serpent's intention, because he's omniscient...

[*2] How should have Eve knew that the serpent is NOT God in disguise, or that the serpent isn't God's agent? If we accept the statements of the Bible, we can see that God is really creative when he tells us his commands, he takes the form of a blazing bush, speaks through angels, desert pilgrims or... nowadays... as priests.

[*3] Let's create an infinite loop (the sinless, immortal man without knowledge), and put a random event (don't eat from the tree of knowledge) in the middle of this loop! Because of the free will and un-knowing, and because of the infiniteness of this infinite loop, sooner or later this event shall surely occur! When this is done, let's start to get mad, pronounce that our creation is sinful, and deny the fact that we are the one who failed during the Creation.

[*4] Quickly pass all the responsibility to others (the serpent, humans, the free will -- which are all our creations... but it's a secret...), then let's banish them to suffer, but also curse them! Let the woman suffer during giving birth! The whore! (Gen. 3:16-19)

[*5] Later, when we realize that the Humans v1.0 may still live on earth, and they're sinless, let's flood the earth, kill them, so this way we can assure that only our "chosen" people survives this, and later we can torture them anyway and anytime we choose.

[*6] Try really hard to make everyone forget, that our original command was NOT that "don't eat from the tree, because... just because", but "thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". The man ate, the man become mortal. The man so had to accept a tie-in sale, and because of eating from the tree, he also had to accept mortality. The man still keeps to this contract, since the man IS mortal. Where's the sin? With the fact of death, we are in deuce. Sorry, Jesus, your sacrifice wasn't needed...

[*7] The immortal (while they were in the Garden, they could eat from the tree of life, see Gen. 2:16 vs Gen. 3:22-23), free willed, un-knowing humans couldn't escape the trap, and sooner or later would eat from the tree of knowledge. This was a set-up. And, if we can believe the Bible, God is the one who set this trap.

continued...

The Original Trap (continued)

My questions are:

Q1: Why are we call the original trap as original sin?

Q2: How can the xians be so sure about the divinity of the Bible, the ten commandments and the xtian religion? What if the whole thing is the mischief of the xtian Satan, and even Jesus was his infernal agent? Let's think this over:

The Fallen Angel was the second most powerful being after God, so she/he could easily fool anyone but God if she/he chooses to do so. According to the Bible, God gave the Eart to Satan as a playground. If *I* were the xtian Satan, I would disguise myself as God, then see a powerful chieftain and would give him a sphere saying that this is a cube. And eons later I could laugh still, seeing that the humans on Earth insist each other that the sphere is a cube...

--

So... this is my theory... I hope you found it interesting.

Hail Satan!
Sandor Szigeti (req999_at_scythe.hu)

Wow! Lots of treasures... :] I never really thought that I could show you anything new... :]

What about your new job? Are you employed yet?

(If my English is bad as hell, it's no surprise, since it's not my mother language.)

HS!

Sandor
(yea, it's my real name -- in Hungarian one never writes this name as "Szandor", I don't have a clue what was in LaVey's mind when he choose his name)

It's interesting to read all the different "takes" on the Adam and Eve story and it's theology. As a Christian, I personally believe it is a mythical story meant to convey a generic truth that people did -something- wrong that brought a lot of the suffering into the world that we now experience; the details are unimportant. I also believe it is originally a pagan myth that the Jews adopted. Many, many ancient cultures had similar "Fall" type myths...the details change but the heart of the story remains the same.

However, in retrospect, if I were to pin-point the truly problematic "sin" in the story it would not be that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree. The real or worse "sin" was that when God questioned them, they passed the blame. Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent...if either of them had taken responsibility for what they had done and admitted their guilt, they would have been forgiven. I believe a very strong case can be made for this interpretation theologically given that the rest of the Bible is full of stories in which people sin, but upon admitting their sin and taking responsibility for their actions, God forgives them completely. (Abraham, David, Peter, etc.)

Q2: How can the xians be so sure about the divinity of the Bible, the ten commandments and the xtian religion? What if the whole thing is the mischief of the xtian Satan, and even Jesus was his infernal agent?

Exactly! Christians can't be sure and anyone who is "so sure" is not being intellectually honest. As Christians we must always reserve the idea that we may be wrong. Faith is certainly a major aspect to Christianity: hoping for that which is not seen. For me it comes down to my experience and the experience of the millions of Christians before me: we -experience- the God spoken of by Jesus as being good, trustworthy, etc. It also makes "sense" intellectually to me (us). But since we cannot trust our intellect and experiences 100%, then surely we can never have certainty. Such is life! However, I think the same question can be asked of any religion or philosophy in the same vein: How can you be so sure? As to the Satanist: How can you be so sure the Christians are wrong and Satan isn't in fact your enemy who seeks to control and destroy you? How can you be so sure of yourself? The doubts must cut both ways.

Thanks,
~E

I'm not sure if I may reply or not, after all it's Vexen's place, and maybe he doesn't want his journal filled with the awkward babbling of some barbaric guy from nowhere, but I give it a try.

First, I have to confess that your thoughts are appealing to me.

I do not see the mortal life as "suffering" (it's easy for me, I'm not ill and I'm not in pain), so I do not need any explanation about why there are suffering on Earth. (I believe there are because we, humans are making it so.) Mortality is just strange, alien, but it's not evil.

The main reason why I wrote about the "original trap" is because the Xtian Church (and the renegade xtian cults) are getting to regain their power in my country, Hungary, and those people are of the worst of mankind. They don't think, they just follow and they don't WANT to think. I'm not saying at all that they are bad because they're xtians -- it's unrelated, but it's really a danger when this kind of drones are baffled into a herd, and this herd will trample anything...

Maybe if I show them that how easy it is to play with the words of the Bible, how easy it is to interpret it anyway I like, they begin to think. Perhaps they'll think about whether if it is good and righteous to hate someone whose only sin is being gay and the Bible says that one must hate them (I'm not gay, but I think that the sexual preference is one's unalienable choice) or that is it right to sue someone who wrote a book about his ideology which contradicts the Bible, contradicts the Church. These are real issues in Hungary nowadays.

The responsibility... This is another subject where the common people in Hungary are "suffering". As you probably know, it's a really little country, whose national anthem is like this:

God bless the Hungarian,
With good cheer, and abundance,
Extend to him a shielding arm,
If he battles with the enemy;
Torn by ill fate for too long,
Bring onto him joyful year,
These people have expiated,
The past and the future!


And it's true, this country isn't too lucky to say the least, and the people are lost their fate in almost everything and their souls has faded to gray. The suicide rate is way too high, maybe it's one of the "top 10" of the world. (Hungary is famous for giving the world one of the saddest songs ever, the Gloomy Sunday, the "suicide anthem". http://www.phespirit.info/gloomysunday/) So it's not surprising that they are easily fooled by greedy dictators. And since they're always fooled, because they're too naive, the common people's (almost) only wish is to survive -- anyway they can. Responsibility? "I didn't do it, someone else did, just leave me alone." It's sad but true. On the other hand, Hungarian inventors gave the world some really useful things like: horse stirrups, buttons, underwear, soap, steel spring, electric motor (18 years before Siemens), carburator for gasoline engines, AC transformer, three phase electric powered electric trains, ultramicroscope, non-Euclidian geometry, match, helicopter, jet engine, first subway system on the European continent, vitamin C, ball-tip pen, modern computer (John Neumann), Rubik's cube, etc. :]

As for God's responsibility... this is a different thing. If I would take the Bible seriously, I couldn't forgive him for not giving the knowledge of good&evil to humans, and forgetting to warn them about the serpent. I'm not a parent yet, but if my child would do something harmful because of me, I wouldn't blame him/her, only myself. ("Hey God, I think you owe me a great big apology" Nine Inch Nails: Terrible Lie)

Of course I can't be sure that my religion or philosophy or view of world is the correct, and there's always a possibility that the Bible is right. But: even if Jesus himself would appear before me and would talk to me, I wouldn't change my life at all. I am so sure of myself, because if I can't prove that anything exists at all, I must guess. (I use to say: Credo in Meum Ego) To define myself, I have to find an origo, a center for my world to which I can compare everything. For xtians, this origo is God. For me, it's me. If I don't exist, then who cares about the world? So I'm not sure -- but I just feel myself all right.

Sorry for being so verbose. I wish you all the best,
Sandor * http://www.scythe.hu/

I do not see the mortal life as "suffering" (it's easy for me, I'm not ill and I'm not in pain), so I do not need any explanation about why there are suffering on Earth. (I believe there are because we, humans are making it so.)

I agree with you that we make most of our own suffering as humans.

Mortality is just strange, alien, but it's not evil.

I guess it depends on one's perspective. When I look at the ills in the world...the starvation, violence, and pain, I feel the world is mainly evil.

They don't think, they just follow and they don't WANT to think. I'm not saying at all that they are bad because they're xtians -- it's unrelated, but it's really a danger when this kind of drones are baffled into a herd, and this herd will trample anything...

I agree with you; I find people that don't think to be among the scariest, dangerous people in the world.

Maybe if I show them that how easy it is to play with the words of the Bible, how easy it is to interpret it anyway I like, they begin to think.

Your goal to make people think is noble one. Vexen shares that goal and it works!

Perhaps they'll think about whether if it is good and righteous to hate someone whose only sin is being gay and the Bible says that one must hate them (I'm not gay, but I think that the sexual preference is one's unalienable choice)

Jesus said that hate is as sinful as murder and taught against it vehemently; so no Xian can justify hatred of another person for any reason. I agree that sexual orientation is morally neutral and not an issue for religion.

or that is it right to sue someone who wrote a book about his ideology which contradicts the Bible, contradicts the Church. These are real issues in Hungary nowadays.

It's hard to imagine this...it is so foriegn to me in America where we have freedom of speech and religion. I'm sorry you live in such a oppressive culture.

As for God's responsibility... this is a different thing. If I would take the Bible seriously, I couldn't forgive him for not giving the knowledge of good&evil to humans, and forgetting to warn them about the serpent. I'm not a parent yet, but if my child would do something harmful because of me, I wouldn't blame him/her, only myself. ("Hey God, I think you owe me a great big apology" Nine Inch Nails: Terrible Lie)

I believe the concept of the "knowledge of good and evil" is not what people think it is...I believe it is the ugly desire to judge others as either good or evil (Bonhoeffer). When we refrain from exercising this knowledge, that is, when we refrain from judging others and their actions, we are free to accept and love all people. (Remember that this story is so ancient that it dates to pre-history and was written down in Hebrew likely over 3,500 years ago. We have lost the original meaning of these Hebraic terms and concepts that only the ancients would have understood. Modern-day interpretations and translations of this story are almost irrelevant and sure to be wrong. Again, it is most likely a pagan myth adopted by the Hebrews which tries to get explain our imperfect world. I certainly don't use it to form specific ideas about the Divine from it.)

I am so sure of myself, because if I can't prove that anything exists at all, I must guess.

All we have are our best guesses, yes, we cannot prove anything. I tend to assume that I am only one limited and finite person and imagine there must be wisdom I can gain from the billions that have gone before me, so history plays an important role in my own world view. When I read the Christian mystics like Julian of Norwich that speak of experiences of being drawn into the Divine as infinite love...I relate to that.

(I use to say: Credo in Meum Ego) To define myself, I have to find an origo, a center for my world to which I can compare everything. For xtians, this origo is God. For me, it's me. If I don't exist, then who cares about the world?

Yes! We all must have a center from which to compare everything. And I disagree that a Christian's center/origo is God...it can only be ourselves. I think God made it that way because we must to choose whether to unite to God/Love or not.

Thanks. I find your writings very interesting.
~E

"When I look at the ills in the world...the starvation, violence, and pain, I feel the world is mainly evil."

Then, perhaps, you should "look on the bright side of life"... ;] I often "think to myself, what a wonderful world"... There's beauty in everything, just we have to feel the desire to see them.

"Your goal to make people think is noble one. Vexen shares that goal and it works!"

Don't tell him, but I admire him very much for this ;], and beside LaVey, Vexen is the one who showed me the way where I can express myself, and his clear and bright essays encouraged me to start my own page about Satanism. I don't steal their writings, but they have made a deep impact on my thinking for which I am very grateful. :]

"Jesus said that hate is as sinful as murder and taught against it vehemently;"

Jesus also said "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." So... If one doesn't think, doesn't seek the meaning behind the words and just sees the surface... we shall see the birth of new Hitlers, Stalins, Bin-Ladens and their empires of hate and fear...

"I'm sorry you live in such a oppressive culture."

I'm sorry for misleading you. I wasn't careful enough, and forgot to mention that now officially Hungary is as free as the USA, but it's an old country (was founded more than 1000 years ago), and old traditions die hard. In addition, we just "recently" freed ourselves from the grasp of the former Soviet Union which forced materialistic ideas on everyone, and it was, in fact, a crime to believe in any supernatural. From the members of the former Warsaw Pact (the anti-NATO), Hungary was the first which rebelled in 1956. This freedom fight was cruelly drowned in blood by the Red Army and we had to call this freedom fight as "anti-revolution". Until 1990, there were no real elections in Hungary and there was no real freedom of thinking or freedom of religion. So it's just the feeling of real freedom that confuse the minds of the common people and they do silly, childish things. When a blind man can see again, he must learn to use his eyes. This is the same case: they must learn to use their rusted brains.

"when we refrain from judging others and their actions, we are free to accept and love all people."

I judge. But my judgement is never final. I always judge everything and everyone by their current doings, so it's utterly possible that I begin to love someone whom I hated before and vice versa. And, I try to love everyone for the being as s/he is, and not for the ideal what I think/want them to be. I don't expect that a cat would fetch a rod for me, I love cats because they are... cats.

"history plays an important role in my own world view"

I don't trust history at all. I can't. The politicans and the priest are the biggest liars ever, and the historians are their pawns. (Maybe I'm just too paranoid... But... who killed Kennedy?)

"I disagree that a Christian's center/origo is God...it can only be ourselves. I think God made it that way because we must to choose whether to unite to God/Love or not."

So you think the Christians are humans too. ;] Yes, we are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, brothers and sisters, but we are all blind and afraid of the dark. The "horror vacui" applies to the human mind, and when we don't understand something we try to create God to fill the hole. In my opinion, the Big Secret is that no-one KNOWS, everyone just assumes, maybe hopes, and no-one's guesses are better or more true than anyone else's, so we mustn't and shouldn't FORCE our views on anyone. The world is big enough.

with respect I remain,
Sandor

Hey Sandor, if you have an e-mail address, please send it to me at: empire_ess@yahoo.com so we can keep talking. I think Vexen might like his journal "back." ;)

Hey Vexen, thanks for hosting our conversation so far! I hope you at least find it interesting. :)

Then, perhaps, you should "look on the bright side of life"... ;] I often "think to myself, what a wonderful world"... There's beauty in everything, just we have to feel the desire to see them.

I think you misunderstood me. I believe the world has much evil, but I also see amazing good, beauty, and wonder in the world. I am a very happy, joyful, and grateful person. I feel that because I am aware of the suffering of others in the world, I am even more aware of the goodness...it stands out more and has even more meaning to me. I have dedicated my life to the pursuit of helping others; I would not do that if I thought we were in a hopelessly evil world. Evil yes, but not hopelessly so; I'm a realist.

Don't tell him, but I admire him very much for this

Okay, I won't, it will be our little secret. ;)

Jesus also said "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." So... If one doesn't think, doesn't seek the meaning behind the words and just sees the surface... we shall see the birth of new Hitlers, Stalins, Bin-Ladens and their empires of hate and fear...

That's right. Jesus used a lot of Zen-like sayings that mean something other than they appear on the surface; this verse is an example of a vivid hyperbole. If you take him literally at those times and do not think, it will lead to stupidity and wrong conclusions. Another example of hyperbole is when Jesus tells people to "be born again" or when he says "I am the vine." etc. You also have to think and take his sayings in context because chapters earlier he says, "You have heard it was said 'love your friends and hate your enemies' but I tell you to love your enemies" and "Do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you" etc. How anyone who claims to take Jesus seriously can turn around and hate others, from homosexuals to Satanists to people of other races, is beyond me; it's simple hypocrisy.

And, I try to love everyone for the being as s/he is, and not for the ideal what I think/want them to be.

Exactly! That's great.

I don't trust history at all. I can't. The politicans and the priest are the biggest liars ever, and the historians are their pawns. (Maybe I'm just too paranoid... But... who killed Kennedy?)

It is wise to distrust history and the writings of historians. But I was speaking of the figures in history that I most respect from St. Francis to Hildegaard of Bingen; I am speaking of those who lived and died for what they believed; most of them were hated and despised by the institutions and the power structures of their day because those in power will always lie and destroy others to remain in power. When I say "history" I am speaking, not of the writings of historians, but of the witnesses throughout history who testify to something greater than themselves; I listen to those who came before me who seem to reveal a greater wisdom.

The "horror vacui" applies to the human mind, and when we don't understand something we try to create God to fill the hole.

And of course, all people are guilty of trying to "fill the hole" of their lack of understanding, not just those who believe in a God. People use philosophy, religion, science, money, etc. to fill that hole because it is human nature to seek meaning and understanding. Of course, the way atheists accuse theists of doing this as though atheists were immune to the same behavior (expressed differently) gets rather tiresome.

so we mustn't and shouldn't FORCE our views on anyone.

I agree most ardently.

~E

Satanism

(Anonymous)
While I disagree with your religion in general, as I am a Christian, I do feel that you make some compelling points. I agree that stupidity and blindy following something are sins. We need to be awake and aware and not merely do something because we're told to.

I appriciate your out takes

(Anonymous)
My husband is satanic and my own beliefs are not no diffrent. Its hard to find people who know what you know to be right. Right in many aspects. If there was any way to thank you with out this explanation i would simply submitt that but find it nessesary you have an inkling of who is thanking you. You have a very officiant site.

I appriciate your out takes

(Anonymous)
My husband is satanic and my own beliefs are not no diffrent. Its hard to find people who know what you know to be right. Right in many aspects. If there was any way to thank you with out this explanation i would simply submitt that but find it nessesary you have an inkling of who is thanking you. You have a very officiant site. Domino and Freeman Ross

sinner

(Anonymous)
as a sinner, one of a million living human live in this world.,
sometimes we must regret and disregard our conscience, of
being nor having emotional temtation., or but to live without emotional
tempation.

not just because you are a christianism or satanism.. or what
ever religion you have in..

but the main menu of human life not just for love,
not just for prison of love are they saying and thinking about..

but to live with freedom, and peace,.
instead of emotional cult vandalism..

for me to the best of my faith
and deluded con conclusion, from my
immortal mind and spirit..

live with freedom. and peace of mind..
instead of god faith,,
which have the similarity of god faith
in the name of graft and corruption..

to the readers
sorry for my message
of disrecpectful

only a flesh from dust
a sinner..

Amen..

peace be with you..

"zero_degree_burn"




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