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Vexen Crabtree: Why I am a Satanist...
"Vexen: Why I am a Satanist" by Vexen Crabtree (2001)

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Listening To: "Slave to evil" by Wumpscut

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From: (Anonymous) Date: December 27th, 2002 07:16 pm (UTC) (Link)

HEY I'M NOT JUDGING U OR ANYTHING BUT DON'T BE A SATANIST IT'S THE WRONG CHOICE U WILL END UP SOMEWHERE U WON'T WANT TO BE. FOLLOW GOD. EMAIL ME AT SPARKLYGURL12@YAHOO.COM
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 10th, 2005 10:02 am (UTC) (Link)

Satanism

I'm right with you there girl, but one thing. There are two sorts of Satanist:

1) There are those who would murder and kill and rape in satanic rituals just for the sake of being evil-(Some might even stoop as low as into vamprism).

2) There are those that have been influenced by satanism in different ways such as: their parent/s may be satanic in going to the Church of Satan and have taken their child to their Church and he/she has been influenced by the (quite foul, might I add) teachings of the Church.

And don't worry, I am not a Satanist myself but I am 100% Christian. I thank you for spreading the word to follow the LORD God. :)



From: (Anonymous) Date: January 21st, 2003 01:38 am (UTC) (Link)

How can you be sure that there's no higher power?

Hiya, I'm very impressed with your site.. excellent work!

I'm agnostic, and not knowing anything about Satanism stumbled across your site whereupon i found some answers. I must say I agree with the viewpoint of Satanism in that I denounce all religions that would put absolute credence in any higher power. I don't believe in the human soul, I think that our thoughts are merely the product of electro-chemical activity in the brain. And therefore I very much doubt the human transition to any form of afterlife. And so, like Satanism advocates, I believe that each individual's lifetime should be cherished and lived to the fullest..

But... I'm agnostic because how can I ever be -sure- there isn't a higher power, even though it's wrong to have absolute faith that there is? I don't think that we can know, therefore it's wrong to say that there is no such thing.. how can you know?

Am very interested in your thoughts on this..
vexen From: vexen Date: January 21st, 2003 04:16 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: How can you be sure that there's no higher power?

Hi there, thanks for the response. First of all, I think you're sensible :-)

Secondly... I think, and no doubt you will empathize with this, that even if there is a higher power it seems that the world has no consistent or actual way of knowing what it "wants" from us. We are incapable of deriving any particular morals or rules from it, and we do not know *how* we should act, or if it wants us to do anything at all.

Even if it *does* exist, it is *as if* it doesn't. This argument, on it's own, merely results in agnosticism. But when I combine it with some further thoughts -- about consciousness and biology - it appears to me that there cannot be an actual conscious, living higher power. This is because... life as we know it is based on biology. Consciousness is based, and derived, from biology. Altering and messing with our biology and chemistry can have a real affect on our consciousness -- the two are inseperable. Therefore there is no higher power, because there is no way for such a thing to be conscious.

There are 2 main objections: 1. The entire Universe or Earth might be a conscious being in it's own right (Gaia hypothesis). 2. A higher power may be conscious in a way we do not yet understand.

The first objection was powerful enough (in my mind) for me to actually join the Scientific Pantheism movement for a few years, however I talked myself out of it for the following reason: Even if the Universe was alive, it would not be a "higher power" to us. As we are a result of physics, part of it's body, we are not under any moral or ethical compunction to act as it wants, and it has no method or body with which to interact with anything at all. Such a thing would only be a "power" or important in the most abstract way, and, therefore, not an actual "higher power" to us. "Logic" itself, or "Physics" is a more pertinent "higher power".

The second objection is useless. It is an appeal to the unknown. The unknown could be used to prove any fact and any argument. If we come to any conclusion, we could then say "Ah, but there might be something we don't know yet, that would change our minds". Although seemingly a sound argument, it is certainly not one that can be used to form evidence or a logical reason either for or against any fact. Because it is equally likely that "things we don't know" about consciousness are equally likely to disprove that a higher power exists than it is to prove it, the fact that there are always things we don't know doesn't impact the argument for a higher power one way or another.

OK, there are some of my thoughts! Thanks for the intelligent questions :-)
From: (Anonymous) Date: March 6th, 2003 01:10 am (UTC) (Link)

YOUR ESSAY

I'm praying for you that Jesus Christ will show you how utterly stupid and lost you really are.
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 20th, 2005 07:52 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: YOUR ESSAY

Dear random person, it is you that is lost. Your god has wiped out the population of earth on more than one occasion, once just because he got pissed off. Also it is harassment to press your own beliefs on someone by saying that you will pray for them.
Re: YOUR ESSAY - (Anonymous) - Expand
From: (Anonymous) Date: March 29th, 2003 12:23 am (UTC) (Link)

question...

I just have some inquiries...I have to make it known, first of all, that I am a Christian. Secondly, I read your testimony and some facts about being a satanist, and I was just wondering why you think every Christian is closed-minded and unjustly controlled. Just as I do, you follow a ritual, and read from "the book" just like any Christian. You probably attend meetings, much of like the Christian church, filled with certain rituals. So, why does that make us so different from you? I'm not trying to be mean or...lol.."evil", but I don't understand. Why would anyone want to become a part of something that is based on "evil?" Also, it almost seems as though being a satanist contrdicts oneself. You say that it represents rebellion and evil, but then you say that it represents good as well. Now, I know that everyone has an opinion, and I respect that. Truly, I do, but I just wish people in this world would focus on being good to other people and living by the teachings Christ left for us. These teachings aren't bad. They are a good way for us to see that being good to people is what it is all about. So, my question is, Why not read more on the Christian Bible and see what it is all about before deciding to let Satan rule your life. In the end, you may regret it. I hope you'll take my advice. God bless and thanks for reading.
vexen From: vexen Date: March 29th, 2003 05:19 am (UTC) (Link)

anwers...

(All pages I link to in this reply are written by me)

1. I don't think all Christians are closed-minded, I know from experience (and through plain old logic...) that many Christians are not closed-minded, and of course, some Satanists are.

2. We don't read from "the book".
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/legalism.html

3. Satanism is based on reality, not "based on evil". If, in reality, all life eventually dies, then this is what Satan represents.
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/evil.html
(especially "Good relies on evil" and "The dark force in nature")

4. It is not a contradiciton, there is no real "good" and "evil", they're whatever we happen to call them, they're arbitrary, cultural and homocentric ideas. Satan *does* represent both good and evil, as Satan represents reality.
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/bookofsatan1.1-4.html covers this a bit.

On Jesus & Christianity:
Jesus did not teach a single moral that was not taught before, no-one needs to follow Jesus in order to know how to be nice, or to want to be nice, to other people. I am a nice person, kind, compassionate and empathic. But I still don't believe in Jesus, and even doubt that he even existed.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_nojesus.html

I don't believe the Bible is anything other than a Human book written by humans.

I also doubt many of the morals found in the Bible:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/cm.html

I don't believe God can logically exist, and present many reasons why not:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rm.html
Re: question... - (Anonymous) - Expand
From: (Anonymous) Date: March 29th, 2003 03:38 pm (UTC) (Link)

your answers

I see what you are trying to say, but I have to add to it. The Bible IS, in fact, a man-written book. It is supposed to be that way, written by Jesus' apostles and through those whom God spoke to. So, when you say it is made up by humans, you must also realize that the satanic bible was also written by man. Also, when you say that there is a possibility that God or Jesus do not exist, why do you even believe that satan exists? Without God, there cannot be satan. If you wish to discuss further, my e-mail is Laurenblair20@hotmail.com :-)Thank you for reading.
From: (Anonymous) Date: March 31st, 2003 02:57 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: your answers

Hi,

No I don't think you do see what Vexen's trying to say, if you'd read the material he'd suggested you'd realise that the Satanism notion of Satan is that it doesn't exist in any form other than notional. There is no such entity. It's an iconic symbol for the anti-religion, NOT the 'evil' counterpart to God.

I'm not a Satanist myself but I think if you open your eyes and look past the negative connotations of the name (and you will once you read more), you'll see that there's a lot of merit in its philosophies.

I find it ludicrous that people who worship a God can accuse Satanists of being misguided but then I guess that's the nature of any opposing spiritual belief: "I know I'm right, I can't be wrong because I've devoted so much of my existence to believing this.". Sad, really.

To reiterate Vexen's point, what does believing in God or even Jesus have anything to do with being a good person? No, really.. think long and hard on this one before you answer please..
Re: your answers - (Anonymous) - Expand
From: (Anonymous) Date: April 25th, 2003 09:01 pm (UTC) (Link)

too much

you have a good point about the hokeness of some religions, but Satan is the antithesis of god. Now some people ahave a hard time coming to terms with I don't know what, but when you are with satan, you are not with anybody's definition of god. You are working for the wrong team. Maybe you need the direction of someone else in life, but maybe when you are doing good, you will feel it. Good luck sorting things out for yourself.
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 28th, 2003 01:32 am (UTC) (Link)

Vernace is here once more.

I can truthly understand how you feel when you are in a church. I did had the same experience with you, that phrase is indeed powerful. " Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit" I love this phrase. Hit directly on those hypocritical Xtain. By the way, i have a Xtain good friend, he did told me that when he spread Christ to others. He dont really love that person and wants him to go heaven with him. Instead, he just feels that if he doesn't do that , he will go to hell. Even a Xtian say that himself... what a shame.....
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 28th, 2004 12:27 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Vernace is here once more.

you sound like a guy i know. do you live in north carolina
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 28th, 2003 01:36 am (UTC) (Link)

Can a satanist be a surrealist too?

just wanna ask whether a Satanist can be a surrealist too? hey man... i am a Satanist too, wondering can i be a surrealist as well.
vexen From: vexen Date: May 29th, 2003 04:29 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Can a satanist be a surrealist too?

Certainly!
From: (Anonymous) Date: July 11th, 2003 04:46 am (UTC) (Link)

just wondering

Nice to hear from someone who seems largely down to Earth. Always refreshing to find another religious view-point.

Recently I've been looking around at various religious beliefs and philosophies, and at this point I was just wondering if you distance yourself from the satanists that have sharp canines and sacrifice their humourus friend(I believe they stabbed him many a time) as they felt he would make a fine jester for the court of Satan. Can't remember if they were doped up, or insane, mabye neither.

This is not an urban myth incidently, I think it happened some time last year. I could chase it up if you don't know what I'm reffering to. Very disturbing images from the court appearance.

Also, in making the most out of life, is that to the neglection of empathy, or is that the sort of carpe diem philosophy of being pro-active and enegetic, and generally being unafraid of life.

btw, if any of those happy Christian, religious folks would like to help in Jesus rescuing me, please bombard me with sites and email addresses. Always a good read. Still waiting for an apologetic to get back to me, its been afew months...

Nice site Vexen
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 26th, 2003 08:30 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: just wondering

Well, I may not be the stereotypical "happy Christian religious" type person you were referring to in your email, but I am a follower of Christ. I find major differences between those who merely call themselves Christians and those are devoted followers of Christ. I am only 20 years old and in no way assume or pretend to have the answers to all the questions, or the ability to save the world or "Jesus rescue" you, as you so interestingly put it. I do attempt to have an open mind when it comes to hearing others out concerning their spiritual beliefs. This does not mean, however, I am willing to compromise my beliefs, but rather am not in it to judge you. That is not my place. I feel this way about it, in short: You, as well as every other human being on this earth, whether Christian, Satanist, Muslim, Mormon, Atheist, or what not, was created by the One True God and my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died to cover our sins with his own blood. (And yes, I did say OUR sins...I sin just as much as everyone and would never pretend otherwise.) So, seeing that we were all created by Him, His desire is for us to come to know and love him from our own free will. It is, therefore, my belief that as a follower of Christ, it is my responsibility to share His love and free gift of forgiveness with anyone I come into contact with. Granted, I don't always share my beliefs through an "evangelistic" type conversation, but sometimes merely through my actions. I say all this only in an effort to plant a seed in your heart, wanting only for you to have the chance to hear the truth about my God, not the twisted views and ideas spread about Him by those simply going through meaningless acts of worship in an attempt to show off or gain favor. I know I have no idea who you are, but in my heart, you represent all those who my Savior died for long ago. You are a beloved child of God, whether you realize it or not. He loves you, desires a relationship with you and wants nothing more than for you to live for Him and with Him forever. True happiness can be found; no, that does not mean there will be no pain or tears in this life. But, it does mean you can find a peace for this life and eternity. God loves you so much and I will be praying for you. You are important to Him!
With His Love,
Christina
From: (Anonymous) Date: August 24th, 2003 02:46 pm (UTC) (Link)
I read your essay and enjoyed it. I hope you're not offended that I don't share your views or don't share them the way you do. See, and I hesitate to use the term, I am a Christian. I say I hesitate to use the term because, I am not like most Christians. The thing is, I have almost no fear whatsoever. As a being, I find that all the emotions that we feel as humans are relevant, including fear. Therefore, to deny fear in order to "liberate myself" is to deny part of the essence that makes me who I am. So what do I fear? More like who. I fear God.
I hope you don't mind if I talk for a while. I'd like to talk about myself a little and explain my fear. I am a very aggressive person. I don't go around picking fights, but I am very aggressive in my thoughts, in life, in the things that I do, etc. I am a very strong person. I love to take responsiblity for me and who I am. I believe strongly in crime and punishment and the death penalty etc. I lift weights and do a hundred and fifty push ups every morning. I usually don't apologize for my actions because they are calculated and exacted with precision. For me, my belief in God helped me to get this way. I want to be like him. I seek to cultivate his divinity in me. Most people think he's a goody two shoes pussy cat. The One who split heaven and earth and coughed out the sun, flooded the earth, plagued the Egyptians and then opened the sea and buried them alive in it, and then lead the Israelites into the wilderness, sustained them there and when they pissed him off, killed off an entire generation etc. and the list goes on. I think he's kick ass! Another thing about him is that he demands complete and utter obedience. Pure and simple. He laid down the commandments and if you read them carefully, they have little or nothing to do with his benefit. The first four demand acknowledgement, that I acknowledge him exclusively. No big deal. I don't have a problem with that, really. But the fifth demands that I observe a day of rest for every seven days. My benefit. Then honor my parents. Well, if I were a parent and my child dishonored me, cursed me out or something, there would be hell to pay. So that one is what goes around comes around. And the rest of the commandments, I really don't need God to tell me. They're common sense.
Oh well. I feel guilty for taking too much of your time. Just that I think people on both sides of the fence got the whole God thing wrong. Hey, thanks for listening and it was great talking.
vexen From: vexen Date: August 24th, 2003 02:50 pm (UTC) (Link)
My site on monotheistic religion: There is no God:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/

Includes pages on your beloved 10 Commandments. I think they require more critical thought than that which you've shown.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Expand
From: (Anonymous) Date: August 31st, 2003 08:20 pm (UTC) (Link)

NO GODS

GODS ARE JUST INVENTED BY SOME BULLSHITS, MAYBE FOR THEIR PASTIME PURPOSES. THE BIBLE ITSELF TELLS ABOUT IDOLATRY, WHERE PEOPLE MADE A STATUE OF A MAN OR AN ANIMAL TO BE WORSHIPPED. IT IS THE SAME AS IN THE CASE OF YAHWEH, JEHOVAH, ALLAH, JESUS CHRIST AND ALL GODS! THEY ARE JUST AN INVENTION!! SATANISTS DO NOT BELIEVE IN GODS AND SATAN! SATANISM IS AGAINST GODS! SATANISM IS AGAINST THE IMAGINATION OF SOME BULLSHITS MOCKING AROUND!!!
From: (Anonymous) Date: April 30th, 2004 04:01 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: NO GODS

what do you mean "SATANISM IS AGAINST THE IMAGINATION OF SOME BULLSHITS MOCKING AROUND"? satan IS a bullshit mocking around!!!!!!!!!! of course there are no GODS! there is only one god, face the fact and get on with your life you saddo! in islam, idolatry is forbidden, muslims dont worship any sort of stautues! and thats a fact, something you havent ironed out properly! if satanists dont believe in no gods then why do people like you worship satan as a god?
Re: NO GODS - (Anonymous) - Expand
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 09:04 pm (UTC) (Link)

The problem with religious / philiosophical foundations 1

First of all, I'll start by saying I'm a very successful 20 year old male from the UK.

For the past five or six years, I've spent the majority of my days, aside from devoting my personal time and effort into creating a truly happy representation of life (by my conscious definition) for both myself and others, to untangling what I perceive to be (in my life at least), the Universe's largest intricate mesh of self-entangled, defeast contradictions.

Or in other words, the notion of philosophical/religious basis.

During the largest part of my teens years, I spent a lot of time bouncing from one logical point of assessment to another. As a child, I was taught to be a Christian, to accept its beliefs as a conscious extension to my own existence, and to perceive it as an intricate part of my livelihood.

As my mentality progress to a stage of evolutionary growth, and I started to process thoughts and ideas outside the framework of supervised logic, I quickly started noticing "holes" in my beliefs and illogical instances.

Being very business and technologically orientated, even from a very early age, I have a tendency to map my reality against the grain of traditional mathematics/logic and assume an input/process/output mode of thought. After spending a lot of time programming linear applications on a computer, it occured to me that as humans, our biggest advantage is the ability to recover from "crash" situation that would otherwise destroy any set-path logical level of consciouss such as a computer.

In other words, if we're giving information that doesn't "fit" into our mode of thought, we process it any way. And, we come to our own conclusions by literally creating our own, based on the foundation of "rules" we've created for ourself from external stimulus given as we're growing up.
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 09:05 pm (UTC) (Link)

The problem with religious / philiosophical foundations 2

The smaller that "rule" base (which is both the resulting process of creativity, and pre-selfawareness "automatic fact acknowledgment", such as being told by our parents that certain things exist as fact), the smaller the categories available to logically assess that particular information.

That, to me, explains why many students of religions both a) choose to follow a particular faith in the first place and b) choose to categorize anything they don't understand in their life into that generic overview of what they believe to be "the answer to life".

It's convenient to say "God works in mysterious ways" when in fact, what you really me, is that you have no clue as to the answer. And the reason religious beliefs are so indoctrined into your personal psychology is because a world with 6 billion inhabitants, ever-changing technology, rapidly advancing scientific groundwork and over 1 trillion new "facts" being added to the world every day is too much for the average person to answer.

So instead, we have created this convenient outlet to "dump" illogical output. It's simply a survival mechanism to stop our brains from overloading and causing neurological meltdown. Also, saying "I don't know" is a specific insult to your own existence and your own ego, which again is something that's VERY survival-mechanism-dependant - so instead of admitting your lack of processing power, you dump unknown conclusions toward religion.

Now, here's my problem (and the point of this entire post).

I've spent a good chunk of my life assimilating ideas/thought structures from various religions and philiosphies. I've spent another good portion of it studying set-logical structures (like C programming, computer science, maths, etc) AND illogical/emotionally-dependant structures too (socialism, psychology, Universal infinity theorum, etc).

Somehow, somewhere, I've met in the middle with a series of principles, and have been given, what I believe to be, somewhat of an extended clarity in understanding the scope of such a deep topic as religion and purpose of existence. I'm not sure if my ability to understand easily points me to correct answers (or even if "correct" answers even really exist in one, solid, physical form), but it certainly gives me an extended set of mental tools to see things from the perspective of others.

The problem I see - with all ideas/religions/thought processes/beliefs - no matter how logical they may seem at the time to your current mindset, is that THEY EXIST WITHIN A SELF-ENCAPSULATION OF THEMSELVES.

Everyone is right. Everyone is wrong. To a Christian, God is right and life is governed by God, simply because their existence is based on that factor. Take THAT away, and you take away their purpose for living. To a Satanist, the idea seems ludicrous, because your logical patterns assimilate a different set of facts, and come to a different conclusion.

But the problem is, every arguement we make to support our particular belief is based on one thing - What we PERCEIVE to be reality.

The truth is, there is no truth. Truth is an oxymoron. The very word defies its own logic. We may think we're all floating in an infinite Universe with two arms, two legs, a brain, and a bagel shop around the corner. But, the "truth" could be anything other than that - who's to know if what we're currently living IS reality, or merely an intepreted projection of such? Who's to know reality even exists? Am I a chemical fluctuation, or the result of a large scale experient? Are these "Earth physics" created as a result of an Unlimited scope of physics I have the power over, and that I've simply attempted to utilize as apart of a pet project that I'm not consciously aware of in this reality?

Who the heck knows? Who can know? Even if you do know - you don't know for sure. I doubt that even if there is a God, he knows for sure. I create computer applications using PHP - therefore, I'm the "God" of that environment. But am I omnipotent? Do I require worship? How is my PHP code, which is just acting in the environment of physics I've created for it, ever going to know anything other than ITS OWN EXECUTABLE CODE?
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 09:07 pm (UTC) (Link)

The problem with religious / philiosophical foundations 3

We know nothing of our environment, just what we choose to do inside of it.

Therefore, my long-winded conclusion is this...

You all have excellent points. I can see why a shitscared Christian-type would label God as their "leader" - it's because they're afraid to take personal responsibility. That's admirable. You're ensuring your ability to survive.

Likewise, I can see how the intelligence of Vexen shines through in his articles and posts. To my mind, he has excellent, very grounded theories that seem to intertwine with what I've accepted as my "living reality".

But, we're all operating on weak foundations here. The truth is, we're all acting out on what we've been giving. Religious war is futile. Arguments are futile. Because whilst they may be "true", by some definition, within OUR reality, we don't control the foundation we're standing on.

So at best, it's guesswork.

Imagine it like a bubble. You live in a bubble. To think of a NEW bubble, is just to create a new bubble inside that existing bubble. Everything thought is based INSIDE that bubble. It's impossible to conceive anything outside of it, because you AND your thoughts are inside of it. Anything you create is thus created INSIDE OF IT.

Yet religion contradicts that basic rule of Earth physics as we know it, because it attempts to explain what's outside the bubble. How can you conceive a color you've never seen? How can you envisage a 4th dimensional shape? You can't. Our "foundation for existence" doesn't allow it.

So my advice - for what it's worth - is do whatever the hell makes you happy, because at the end of the day, that's the only solidarity I know to be higher on my list of reasons to exist than truth itself.

But for your own sake and for those who may share the same astral space as you (whatever that is), don't anyone DARE to provide any "truth" as to why I should believe your God. You are not capable of understanding the intrices of existence, as not am I. Your experiences of living in, say, for example, Alabama don't relate in any way to my life here in England. What you say is irrelevant to me. What your parents taught you has no reflection on my life, or the way I live it.

To open your heart, mind and life to Jesus or whoever else is fine by me. That has nothing to do with me. But to say I'm going to a so-called "Hell" (which you've never seen, nor have the neurological ability to assimilate) just because I don't believe a book you once read, simply because I'm too Earthly-wise and intelligent (by its classic definition) to mindlessly believe what some shitscarred, likely suffering individual believes blindly has to say, is just plain stupid - by any logical definition I can think of.

Personally, I believe there is a conscious driving force behind creation. I believe that a) because I want to (I'd rather live my life comforted than not. If this is all I've got, I want to make the most of it) and b) because I think Universal structure is way too precise not to be specifically guided.

In researching historical data, self-help courses, religions, philosophies, logical processes, principles of personal wealth and success, medicine and many other integrated systems that all rely in someway on religion, it's my belief that human beings are still very much in their infancy, and our beliefs are a direct result of our ability to store and handle information.

You associate emotions with names/Gods because it's easier to handle and pass off responsibility, simple as that. No right-minded, independant person of the world who had the fortitude to question the logic behind every mental operation they conceived would even BELIEVE that a being capable of creating something so precise and so specific as the Universe we have come to know, would be at the whim of basic human emotions such as jealously and anger (leading to the requirement of prayer and worship).
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 09:07 pm (UTC) (Link)

The problem with religious / philiosophical foundations 4

It's primative and illogical, at best.

At worst, it's an open gateway for psychological exploitation - and it's my believe that the worldly authorities that be recognised this in the early years of our neurological evolution, and created religion as a manmind principle to control the masses. Why else would it be so indoctrined into the political economy of the world, and exist as the underlying power behind every major Government in the world?

Also, many of the so-called "facts" that exist in certain White Light religions are based on historical calendars, names, symbolism and more. How can any system of truth post-date a pre-existing manmade religion that's based on COMPLETELY DIFFERENT principles? Surely truth predates everything, as it's pre-determined from the very beginning?

Personally, I think Christiannity/Islam/Juddasm/whatever is great for a lot of people. It sure beats living your life confused, and provides a convenient mental storage facility for anything your own mind can't handle, so you can get on with enjoying your life.

But at the end of the day, make sure you're living a life that DOES make you happy (by YOUR definition). Because lets face it - Bible or not bible, Church or no Church, God or no God - no matter what your friends or family tell you, no matter what they teach in Sunday school, no mortal on this planet has a friggin' clue as to what's coming next, or even as to why we're even here in the first place.

Any guess is just a guess, based on the same foundation as the environment that concluded it.

What's beyond... we can all only imagine. So enjoy life. Embrace it. And for God's sake, stop pissing others off with your "truth". After all, at best, they're only half-churned ideas.
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 10:24 pm (UTC) (Link)

Questions 1

It'd be interesting to find out statistical data behind it.

The reason I say this is, in all honesty, most religions I've research seem to promote "all-good", but are entirely based on fear, racialism, fascism, and a one-size-fits-all path through life. Sounds great for a production line of robots - but for conscious, livng, breathing human beings???

I'm kinda at a loss, and I'm hoping someone with deep religious ties can help me out with REAL, true to their heart answers.

My questions may seem biased towards Christiannity simply because that's what I know best... but please, someone, help me out here..

I want to know..

1. First of all, what instills your heart and mind with so much trust that your religious friends/family even know what they're talking about? Have any of them experienced your God, first hand?

2. What co-relation does the Bible have to God? I read Harry Potter last week, which I believe has a base of followers close to the size of the Christian population of the Earth. But I doubt that in 2000 years, people will believe we had wizards flying around our Earthly realms in daylight.

3. How do you know the Bible wasn't written by Satan himself, to get you to do things that he specificially wanted you to - like, perhaps, open yourself up to complete and utter control at the say of the bible?
vexen From: vexen Date: October 18th, 2003 03:55 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Questions 1

1. I have some friends who profess deep and wide experience of God. However, I believe such experiences are psychological. My family have no such experiences, it's not in our blood.

Experiences of God are psychological: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_experience.html

2. There is no relation between the Bible and God.

3. That is a very good question and I think without a Christian framework such a thing is very possibly and potentially likely. I mention on a webpage about Satanism that it is possible that actually the Bibles of the world were written by an evil god who is out to confuse us and lead us astray:
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html
Re: Questions 1 - (Anonymous) - Expand
Re: Questions 1 - (Anonymous) - Expand
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 10:24 pm (UTC) (Link)

Questions 2

4. Why does your God require to be worshipped? Does he have an ego problem? Is he not powerful enough to rid himself of it? Or is he just messing you around, taking advantage of your mortality, and bullying you into it? I have respect for my friends - but, not for people who *tell* me to have respect for them. Why is your God given special privileges?

5. Tying in with point 4, if your answer is "Because he created me and I owe him my life", why does he require you to live it (on the mainpart) poor, mundanely, and to a MUCH lesser extent than the physical possibility he so evidently created elsewhere in the Universe? What do those "other" things exist for, if they're not to be used in your life?

6. If you live to worship your God, wouldn't you consider that a sadistic requirement? Isn't that a bit harsh? I know if I "created" a child (which I have full power to do, btw) and told it that it must bow down to me for the rest of my life, I'd feel bad. Does your "all-living" God have no ethical remorse?

7. If you are living your life to be "judged" and God is omnipotent, wouldn't he already know the outcome? Why not skip straight to the good part? Why would an all-loving God torment you in this way?

8. If you say it's Satan who torments you (how convenient), why doesn't God stop it? What's that you say, because you have "free will"? Riiight. Just like you have free will to disobey the 10 commandments and spend an eternity in Hell, eh.

9. In fact, why the heck does the Devil exist in the first place? I've read the bible. That part made no sense to me. It told me "what" happened, but never why. Seems to me, if this is part of God's plan, then him and Satan are buddies. After all, his omnipresence commands all. So, he must have planned this life for you, right?

10. If he didn't plan it, that means he doesn't know exactly what's going to happen, right? Then... why do you rely on God's power? Why do you continue to worship and devote your life to him, if he can't control the outcome?

11. Why doesn't prayer work all the time? Why do thousands of people die needlessly every day, in horrific, painful ways? Where is God? Don't give me that "God likes us to fend for ourselves" crap. It's hypocritical, and contradictory to everything your religion stands for. Tell me what criteria your Gods wants that would make him, say, choose to to give long life to a serial killer and allow a 4 year old boy of a single-mothered parent on welfare to get splattered across the street by a truck?

I'm curious. I'd like to know how to defend myself against death - because unlike a lot of Christians, I VALUE LIFE. I don't care what comes after it (yet) because I'm not at that point, and even if I was, I'd have no way of controlling it.
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 10:24 pm (UTC) (Link)

Questions 3

12. If 2,000 years ago, when people were dumb and open to suggestion and people were still being persecuted by kings who had the authority to hack someone's brains out if they felt like it, I was alive and I wrote a book that claimed to be about God - but was completely phony in every respect - yet was passed off for many generations as the real thing - do you think it's maybe a tiny bit possible that you'd believe the same thing today?

13. I'm a great guy. I give $1,000s to charity. I help people across the street. I'm kind to my clients and friends. I don't harm anyone. I pay all my bills on time. I'm welcoming to strangers. But, I have a brain that God gave me that says "Christiannity doesn't feel right". I presume that my body and soul is the property of God, right? Okay, so what if I think that? Am I going to hell to be tortured by fire for the rest of eternity, even I'm one of the nicest guys you've ever have the good fortune of meeting?

14. Lets say some little dude in China - a kid of 4, has been taught by his Chinese father to follow the Buddist way. Unfortunately, that kid develops a debilitating disease that causes him constant pain and torment for a couple of years, and he dies suddenly. Unfortunately, he was in China is whole life. Christiannity wasn't known there. Will they little, innocent boy go to Hell to suffer even more pain and torment?

15. Is he does, would you still consider your God to be all-loving, fair and just? Isn't it maybe just a tiny bit unfair?

16. You say Jesus died to save your sins. What sins? Existing? Heck, I've never sinned in my life. Not once. Oh what's that? You call the desire to be successful and wealthy a sin? And what's that, sex before marriage is another sin? Oh my. I'm a sinner. NO WONDER the dude NEEDED to be ORDERED BY GOD to die on a cross. Oh that's right, he did it out of his own kindness and free will. What a nice man. Shame God was out of sight...

17. Do you believe sex before marriage is a sin? Is there some kind of Universal database that automatically flags you as a "sinner", perhaps, for sticking your penis inside a woman? What makes that worse than, say, touching her hand? Biologically, it looks like the same kinda tissue to me. And pornography. I like looking at nude lesbians making out. I enjoy it. Naturally (using the body God gave me), it turns me on. Am I supposed to shut that out? If so, why did he give me these feelings? And if the lesbians consented to it and it's enriching their lives, what's the big deal? Seems to me you're God is overly strict, for all the wrong reasons.
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 17th, 2003 10:24 pm (UTC) (Link)

Questions 4

18. Why are most Christians I know dying of a terrible disease, pisspoor broke, or clinically depressed? There seems to be a correlation between weak, irresponsible, unsuccessful and dependant living and religion. Explain that link to me. Not all the time, of course. Some of them are intelligent AND brainwashed (the same thing happens to me when I see a hot bodied vixen leaning against the bar. I understand). But, on the whole, why do God's people seem to suffer more?

Oh again, how could I forgot! It's that eternal reward thing, right. Suffer now, gain later. How clever. Still, you'd think an all-loving God who could achieve anything at the wave of a cosmic wand to make life great ALL the time. Makes you question his power, doesn't it?

19. I want to exercise my free will every living second of my life. I want to earn a million dollars, blow half of it on ice cream, and the other half on naked Tahiti girls. I want to stay up all night, and work like a madman on a Sunday. I want to say "Jesus!" whenever the hell I want, in whatever context, because it's MY language I'm speaking. I want to masturbate over pornography, drive fast cars, have sex with whoever feels up for it (and take her up the ass, if I so wish), read whatever literature I can get my hands on, think for myself and make my own decisions. And in doing all that, I wish to harm absolutely no-one. In fact, the only thing I want to do is very HAPPY.

Does your God have any problems with the above? If so, why did he create the ability to engage in that? Furthermore, why the heck would he be bully enough to make me WANT them? Surely not EVERYTHING is Satan's fault?

And last but not least...

20. Are you HONEST TO GOD, HAND TO YOUR HEART 100% confident that your pigheadedness, intentional suffering (when you could be having an AWESOME time without hurting ANYONE, inherent fear, depression, constant need for prayer/forgiveness and worship are absolutely, totally and 100% truthfully going to ever pay off... or, do you have that nagging doubt in your mind (and be honest), that perhaps your pisspoor, dying mother who brought you up in a trailor shack may not have had all the answers, and furthermore, may have simply circulated the same rehashed BS that's been misinterpreted and passed down for centuries, to other mindless morons?

I'd be interested to know, is all. And yes, I realize not everything I've mentioned above is applicable to your case. But I make no apologies for my thoughts. Yes, I'm angry at organized religion. I think it's a direct manipulation of conscious will, and it plays on fear and doubt and hope to feed.

But, I wouldn't mind at all if you'd keep it to yourself. It's not so much proving the existence of him that's my goal. It's the fact that even if he did exist, he doesn't sound like the kinda God I'd wanna worship. Why would I worship someone who punishes against free thought?? Stupid.

Instead, though, you choose to say "I hope you are saved by Jesus... yadda ya". Well, I hope you grow a brain, and move out of that rut you're currently in. I hope your friends can forgive you for being a morin. I hope you get some kind of fashion sense. I hope you don't get hit by a bus. But then, it's not about me, is it? You have nothing to do with me.

Nuff said.
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 18th, 2003 06:38 am (UTC) (Link)

Pre-questions 1

For some reason, my introductory that should been prefixed onto "Questions 1" got cut off - FYI, I'm the same guy who wrote the "Philosophical/Religious problems" prior to the Questions thread.

When I said it'd be good to find statistical data on it, what I meant to say prior to that was "Why do so many Christians I know seem to be unhappy, clinically depressed, terminally ill, or bored with their lives"?.

It's a very generalized comment, I know - there are plenty of Christians in the world that lead wonderful lives, and good luck to them. But, my point throughout has been one of consistency.

If I pour hydrochloric acid in a beaker and do a PH test, it's always going to come out acidic. It's consistent. It's science. So why is it that, even when a Christian does all the right things in their life, they very rarely seem to experience any additional benefits in this lifetime?

I can understand the argument for afterlife, and that this is simply a "test" to get you there (albeit a very "human" argument, and one that probably wouldn't feature on a realistic God scale). But, what amuses me (and pains me too, in a sense) is that you're throwing away the ONE THING you know to be true - the right here, right now. Today.

My "Questions" thread may have shed a little unnecessary anger in places, and I didn't mean to offend a Christian's perspective, merely question it. I have Christian friends who are awesome people. But, on the whole, their faith is often a burden - a limitation, or a cap - on what truly makes them happy.

Suffice to say, all of my atheist or "spiritual" friends seem to have an understanding with nature - more of a healthy balance that acknowledges that things DO go wrong, and shit happens. And when it does, they accept full responsibility and move on with their lives.

In general, these people are happier, healthier (they radiate a certain quality in their skin, their posture, their presence, everything), better liked by society and their social circles, more financially success, able to deal with stress on a biologically healthier level, and generally live their lives to the full.

And what's more, none of them are deserving of any eternal hell conclusion to their lives, because there's all damn fine people. I fail to see, why their intelligence in haggling over the reasons behind why or why not a God does exist (and believe me, we've shared many hours of conversation over the topic) that resulted in landing on the conclusion that the Christian God, by definition, doesn't exist, should lead them to eternal suffering and pain.

I think that's the same sick psychology that led to racial discrimination (watch Rosewood, to see what I mean), witchhunts, persecution and torture of visionaries, without any justifiable reason, except that their difference scared you, and contradicted a religious idea you may have.

That, my friend, is the epitome of TRUE evil. You really ought to ask yourself, before you tout the "truth", why your supposedly all-loving God would requires such violent religious rebellions to those with opposing views under what is, supposed to be, an environment of his own creation (and thus, HE provided the ability to THINK differently).
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 18th, 2003 06:49 am (UTC) (Link)

The true root of religious creation

(Same author as the post above)

To add another point, Vexen, to your response to question #3 on the possibility of an "evil" God creating the bible and controlling the masses, I personally accept that as a very possible likelihood.

I'm not talking some all-mighty, unearthly being either - just a group of ordinary, powerhungry guys that reside on this planet.

There's a lot of "evidence" to suggest the manmade creation of God - and, if you read controversial topics such as David Icke's "The Biggest Secret", the Masonic Order, Neo-Tech, White Knights, post-Druidism culture and draw a common demomination line between them all, you realize how easy it would be to manipulate people in a very simple, logical way.

I mean, that much is a fact. If I stood in the street of Warsaw in Poland with a sign saying "I hate the Pope" for longer than 10 minutes, chances are I'm going to get shot - or, at best, a good beating. And worst still, the person that does it to me will likely never have even met the Pope.

THAT is psychological power, and that's a fact. No denying it. I think whoever invented religion was a smart group of people recognising the biggest human flaw in psychological evolution, and exploiting it.

Maybe in 1,000 years or so, we'll look back on this time as we now do the Medieval period, and realize how STUPID most people were. Evolution will prevail, I'm sure. In the end, the weak get replaced with strength, and that's already happening now - with a 1% per year drop in Christian study in the US alone. I just wish I'd be around long enough to see it.
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 23rd, 2003 09:02 am (UTC) (Link)

About Catholicism, Part 1...

Sir, I'm Christian and I wouldn't ever shoot you for saying you hate the Pope. I don't particularly care much for him myself. He calls himself Christ on Earth, which is utter blasphemy. Our current Pope is a lot more morally sound than the Popes of the past, so I tend not to pick on him like I do the others. Have you ever read much on the history of the Catholic church? It's the most rotten thing I've ever heard of. NO ONE MARTYRED MORE CHRISTIANS THAN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! Um, here's a quote from a Catholic historian named Peter DeRosa: "Pope Innocent III murdered far more Christians in one afternoon (12,000), than any Roman Emporer did in his entire reign." Slaughter in the name of Christ is not Christian. God tells us in the bible that peoples in power are gonna claim to be doing God a favor when they murder us! It's funny how that works out.

Look, I know religion can control the masses. GOD TELLS US ALL OVER THE BIBLE WE ARE NOT TO DO THAT. We are given the freedom of choice for a reason. The bible just tells us to go out and preach the gospel to the world, not control it. But, some people (Catholic Church) have used the idea of Heaven and Hell against people to gain power. Catholics believe that THE CHURCH holds the keys to Hades, not God, for some reason. Some non-scriptural reason, that is. Anyway, religion WILL end up controlling the world as the bible has predicted. The most awful thing is that it will be considered CHRISTIAN by it's followers. It will not have Christian ideals, but it'll call itself Christian to please people. This is the apostate church mentioned throughout scripture. It will be a one-world religion, where there's a one-world government. Anyway, enough of that.

Listen, this may sound like a cliche'd point, but this country was FOUNDED ON (but not always run by) heavily Christian beliefs. Those beliefs were that people could worship as they wanted. The forefathers were Christian themselves, and from their strict upbringing understood that it's NOT CORRECT to try to force people to believe in God, because he wants people to come to Him out of love. For centuries MOST people carried on some kind of general absolutes in morals based on Biblical ethics. There was slaves and stuff and maybe people who fancied to call themselves Christian and even went to church on Sunday owned some of those slaves. But it's not a Christian belief to own slaves. In fact, a true Christian would please God to be a slave, rather than own them. You're right though. Religion CAN control the masses and IT DID ALL THROUGH THE DARK AGES. The Roman Catholic church ruled the majority of the world for CENTURIES. We were to do what the Pope said whether or not it contradicted scripture, which it always did. Slaughter in the name of Christ is not Christian. Jesus, though he may be coming back to reign, gave us an example at his first appearance on earth which we're supposed to follow if we are to call ourselves followers. Jesus never killed anyone, but was himself cruelly persecuted to the point of death. A Christian should not be rich either, but the Catholic church happens to be only second to the queen of England in priceless jewels and riches. Even the Oppenheimer family, who has ENTIRE SILOS FULL TO THE TOP WITH DIAMONDS, cannot be compared with the wealth contained in Vatican City. The spoil they took from all the kingdoms they brutally destroyed over the ages adds up to a lot. Yet, Christ said "I have nowhere to lay my head" and Peter testified, "Silver and Gold, have I none." God teaches people in the bible how to legally make lots of money and plenty of people use this the wrong way. God knows they're doing it and will punish them for it. I make a ton of money and I'm forced to give it away to this person and that place because I'm a Christian. I have to. It's why God blessed me with a good job.
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 23rd, 2003 09:03 am (UTC) (Link)

Roman Catholicism, part 2....

Back to power......Ignaz VonDollinger, another Catholic historian had this to say: "Since 1183 the view of the church was that every departure from it's teachings was to be punished by death and the most cruel of deaths by fire. From 1200 to 1500 A.D. the long series of Papal works on the inquisition ever increasing in severity and cruelty runs on without a break. Every Pope confirmed and improved upon the devices of his predecessors to the one end of completely uprooting ever difference of belief. It was only the absolute dictation of the Popes and the notion of their infallability that made the Christian world accept the inquisition which contradicted the simplest principles of Christian justice and would have been rejected with universal horror by the ancient church."

At one time in history, in the 1500's I think, the Catholic church actually outlawed the public reading/owning the bible. It had always been their belief that ONLY the Vatican Magisterium could interpret scripture (which, in itself is a glaring contradiction to scripture), but for about 100 years they actually managed to make it against the law for anyone outside of the Heirarchy of the Roman church (Popes, Bishops, Fryars, etc...) to own or read scripture. Today, they've of course lightened up on that belief some. Now the rule is that only the Vatican Council can interpret scripture and people have to accept those interpretations or be considered heretical to the faith. The bible wasn't meant to be treated like that. It was written in the common languages of it's time, to be distributed and read by anyone who wanted it. It wasn't written in poetic Greek and Hebrew. It was written in the common language because it was for the common man to understand. The bible teaches us that if we read it and ponder it, we'll get it. Some things will mean different things to people forever and some things they can argue amongst other Christians to find out the real meaning. The idea is that the conviction of the Holy Spirit would show us, through conversation or just watching people and learning......you know.....experience.

The Pope claims to be the infallable Vicar of Christ. In other words, Christ on earth. A funny thing that word, "Vicar". It's derived from the Latin word "Vicarious" and is a synonym to the Greek word "Anti". "Anti" and "Vicarious" both have the same two meanings which are either, "Against" or "In place of". It's kind of a creepy thing to think about that the term "Vicar of Christ" actually means "Antichrist". The EDUCATED (not average) Roman Catholic will tell you that the word "Vicar" means "In place of". They're right. But NO ONE is to take the place of Christ. In fact, when the antichrist does come, he'll claim to be the Messiah! He won't claim to hate Jesus, he'll say that he is him! Still, I don't believe that any pope will be THEE Antichrist, though they are antichrists in the same sense that Adolf Hitler and Nero are, claiming to be the saviour of the world, but really just looking to control it by any means possible. I do not believe that most popes are intelligent enough to fool the masses into believing that they actually are Christ. Whatever. Another quote from Peter DeRosa:
"Of 80 popes in a line from the 13th century on, not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the inquisitions (crusades). On the contrary, each added his own cruel touches to this deadly machine. Such practices have never been abbrogated or confessed as wrong, much less denounced and renounced by the Catholic church and how could they be with 80 allegedly infallable popes affirming them."
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 23rd, 2003 09:04 am (UTC) (Link)

Roman Catholicism, part 3....

The Roman Catholics have plenty of books which they read in place of scripture, so that followers can't find the contradictions within it's beliefs when reading the bible. I have two of them. One is called "The Code Of Canon Law" and the other is "Vatican II". Just off-hand, I wanna show you this quote from The Code Of Canon Law 3:33, "There is neither repeal now recourse against a decision or decree of the Roman Pontiff".

Whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that you are not justified when you compare Christianity with Roman Catholicism. I could go on for DAYS talking about just the evil acts committed by the popes themselves! The rape, the torture and murder of innocents, the lying, just the over-all insanity of having that much power in your hands. I could tell you about Mary-worship and worship of Saints and how that kinda thing is forbidden by the bible. I could tell you about other unbiblical ideas like purgatory, mass and other means of "buying" yourself a seat into heaven. I could tell you about how the eucharist is unbiblical. I'm telling you, I could go on and on. I'll leave you with this though, which is from the bible and is believed by many modern Christians to be addressed to the Catholic Church:
Revelation 17:6 "And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I wondered, seeing her, with great wonder. And the angel said to me, Why hast thou wondered? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman and of the beast which carries her, who has seven heads and ten horns".......Then the angel says some more stuff to John and continues in verse 9 "Here is the mind that has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains whereon the woman sits." Vatican City is one of 3 cities in the world which rests on 7 mountains. Later, in verse 18 it says "And the woman which thou sawest in the great city, which has kingship over the kings of the Earth." The Catholic church doesn't have as much power as it once did, but it just may play a major role in things in the coming years. It's indisputable that for about 1000 years the kings of the earth answered to the church for their every move. That's a historical fact. Even now, lots of handshaking/kissing going on between the pope and the kings/presidents/prime ministers of the earth. Communism will not take over the world. Christianity will. Antichristianity, that is. The apostate church. Things are building up. My name is Jonathan VanRyn and if you care to argue further, I have no fear because I have all of history backing me up. EVEN THE DINOSAURS! Praise the Lord for truth! Bye.
From: (Anonymous) Date: September 1st, 2005 10:31 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Roman Catholicism, part 3....

hey so what exactly r u saying??? r u infavour of satanism or against?? i dont understand ur writings....
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 7th, 2003 07:42 am (UTC) (Link)
i would like to thank u for creating ur site it help me alot while making a term paper on why satanist should not be feared by people in white light religion.thanks alot
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 21st, 2004 09:50 am (UTC) (Link)

Re:

You are absolutely right, white light people shouldn't fear Satanists. Why?
Because according to the Satanists, Satanists don't try and preach their religion and cram it, along with their opinions down other peoples throats.

But some do fear them. Why? Because a lot of Satanists are hyporcrites and liars, and they do try and spread it.
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