From: katminnaar	Date: December 24th, 2002 11:27 am (UTC)		(Link)

Wow, Vexen. These are VERY BIG questions. (Maybe you should cross-post this to Philosophy?)

I personally haven't noticed that 'truth' per se makes me happy, necessarily. It can sometimes feel good to know the truth, if indeed whatever it is you've discovered actually IS the truth. Sometimes it's difficult to know, except in the most proveable instances.

I agree that even Buddhism, which purports a system for happiness, is really just a way of side-stepping the difficulties in life by somehow rising above it (psychologically), or just flat out AVOIDING them. I think people will find all kinds of ways to lie to themselves sometimes when they really want to *feel* happy.

Many books on 'how to obtain happiness' recommend "keeping your faith" because, I suppose, religion can make people feel comfortable/secure, etc., and maybe indirectly more happy, but probably in the way of just feeling less unhappy. Ignorance is a type of false happiness; finding real happiness through knowledge and truth can be so much more difficult.

Who is better, they who promote truth over happiness, or happiness over truth?
Good question! And yet you'd think truth would always be preferable. If that were the case, religion would probably disappear (eventually). TRUTH is not necessarily compatible with FAITH, obviously.

What are your points of life that generate your happy moments? And how do you reconcile the search for truth when it results in unhappiness, or when the truth looks dangerous to reveal?
I suppose peak experiences do count for a lot. :) But there are definitely moments of being a 'lover of life' as well! As far as having to decide whether to accept or reveal a 'truth' if it's dependent upon happiness vs. unhappiness? Well, I guess that depends upon whether a person is willing to accept the truth or hide/deny/ignore it and live with the consequences either way. Sure, sometimes the truth hurts, and sometimes it's better to know it so maybe things can be better later, even if they're temporarily painful.

I hope this is enough; I have to run off now! Great deep thoughts, btw. :)

	From: vexen	Date: December 24th, 2002 02:10 pm (UTC)		(Link)

From: katminnaar	Date: December 24th, 2002 05:28 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Oh, I didn't realize this is one of the essays from your website! (thought maybe it was just off the top of your head ;))

Anyway, I forgot to add one these: definition of happiness? You mean happiness as in everyday content without a lot of negativity? Or actual "joy"? And I think many people confuse temporary satisfaction with real happiness, but I suppose it's easy to do. Peace of mind often provides a quiet happiness for me. There are many things that might *feel* good, but whether or not they lead to long-term happiness depends on other factors. (I'm sure I don't have to spell it out either!)

Peak experiences are hard to put into words. Just watching a beautiful sunset from a gently rocking sailboat, or petting my cat's luxurious coat and hearing her purr next to me, or taking a long walk through the forest/desert/mountains, etc. And of course music can be very transforming and hypnotic; poetry can be very moving. I can't think of much else to say right now. :)

	From: vexen	Date: December 25th, 2002 03:56 am (UTC)		(Link)

It was off the top of my head... I wrote it, posted it, then decided to mark it up into HTML!

You said some great sounding peak experiences :-) I have a few... some memories of my favorite cat, as a kid, that used to curl up and sleep on my chest... very cuddly :-)

Happiness... I think the text was more speaking of the more long term, deep happiness than temporary joy, but it sounds like you pretty much knew that :-)

Merry Christmas!

From: katminnaar	Date: December 26th, 2002 12:08 am (UTC)		(Link)

Happiness... I think the text was more speaking of the more long term, deep happiness than temporary joy, but it sounds like you pretty much knew that :-)
Yes, I think I understood that. ;)

Merry Christmas!
Thank you! Same to you, although I suppose it's over with by now? :) Except........
I actually have another family get-together on Saturday. Yay, another Christmas! :D

	From: orinotta	Date: December 24th, 2002 08:06 pm (UTC)		(Link)

On that note, beauty has also been called truth...

My take on this: imagine your entire life being ripped out from under you with a single word. Everything you hold dear, everything you believe in, everything you hold onto, suddenly disappearing from beneath you; the firm ground of meaning that defines your life just vanishing into meaningless darkness and bewilderment.

I think that's the danger of lacking an instinct for honesty, with yourself, with others, and with your experience of the world. Sure, if you delude yourself you can iron out a few kinks in life's rocky road, for a while. But when you hit a chasm don't be surprised when your carefully wrought bridge turns to vapour beneath you. Which is, I suppose, almost worse than not having a bridge in the first place.

Just a thought. Oh, and HAPPY CHRISTMAS by the way! I hope yours is genuinely beautiful - you DO deserve a nice one this year. Keep in touch and maybe even give me a call or something?

*huggle*

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 25th, 2002 12:50 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Happiness, Truth, and the Painfully Obvious

Hello, and Merry Christmas. Stumbled onto this site can't remember how. Interesting essay on the concepts of happiness and truth. And peak experiences, etc. Wondering how it all applies, when we are at some level, painfully aware, though we might not acknowledge it as such, that our lives, whether happy or sad, are very temporary. Nothing we do will last. It all turns to dust, as Kansas said so eloquently once in an old song. So on one hand, the pursuit of happiness is doomed from the start, unless one thinks that lying on the deathbed with the thought "I sure was happy" will carry us over into whatever comes next, without too much trauma. About the pursuit of truth, well, it seems what's true today was false 50 years ago. And what is false today might well be true tomorrow. Flash Gordon became John Glenn, etc. etc. So 'truth' changes, just like everything else??!! What's the comfort in that? I don't know about the Buddishts too much, but thought that 'freedom from suffering' was what it was all about. Didnt' know they argued for 'pursuit of happiness'. Mayber they're the same thing? What about all those Mystics that talk about Samahdi and Enlightment? And do you think there's a capital "T" Truth, that actually WOULD

From: suspiriorum	Date: December 25th, 2002 04:25 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Colin Wilson is an excellent author; my friend David is really into his works, and I've read The Outsider. The only thing I have against Nietzche? His oftimes misogynistic streak (some of his quotes include "The Germans are like women, you can scarcely ever fathom their depths -- they haven't any.")

Anyhow, about happiness, I don't think it exists. Anyone halfway intelligent will never be TRULY happy.

The reason being because the intelligent mind is always changing, and in order for change to occur, the intelligent person must always be ready to face new challenges and conflicts. Without such challenges and conflicts, there is no room to grow, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually.

As a psych major, that is why I'm very much against medicating people with antidepressants.

From: suspiriorum	Date: December 25th, 2002 04:27 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Typo

Nietzsche that is. ;)

	From: vexen	Date: December 25th, 2002 04:33 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Typo

Nietzsche is a man of many spellings!

	From: vexen	Date: December 25th, 2002 04:39 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Nietzsche has a terrible misogynist streak, it's true. The barb I remember most well is something like:

"Women commit a feat of literature like a child commits a sin: to then look around to see if anyone noticed, but not really for the feat itself"

I'm happy! OK... admittedly, like confidence, I decided that the difference between faking it and really having it is quite small... I think I might, in reality, be only "medium happy" as opposed to the "endlessly happy" that I come across as! But then again, compared to educated people, I'm not exactly intelligent!

From: suspiriorum	Date: December 25th, 2002 04:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I think I might, in reality, be only "medium happy" as opposed to the "endlessly happy" that I come across as!

--"Medium happy" is sort of the way I'd express my state as well, because it comes and it goes so often.

From what I've read of your essays you seem like a very serious person who still has a "fun" side to him. I think that is a healthy balance of sorts.

But then again, compared to educated people, I'm not exactly intelligent!

--Pshaw. Many geniuses were self-educated, so I have been told.

As for misogyny, well, it's too bad that some men feel the need to attack women instead of putting all their energies into worthwhile social causes, etc. There are still some good examples of this today, for instance, look at the quasi-intellectual site www.misogynyunlimited.com.

Then again, there are other sites which are made by women who hate men, like www.ihatemen.com.

Hatred like this is a waste of time, in my opinion, and these websites should be considered on par with hate crimes.

From: katminnaar	Date: December 26th, 2002 12:03 am (UTC)		(Link)

Everything you said here makes great sense to me. :) I don't think I want to bother checking out those websites, though!

But then again, compared to educated people, I'm not exactly intelligent!
--Pshaw. Many geniuses were self-educated, so I have been told.

I feel the same way sometimes (less intelligent because 'less educated'), but I have to agree on the self-educated point. There are different kinds of *smarts* -- no matter what the basic IQ tests say! Some people do better learning on their own; others fare better in a structured setting like college.

Thanks for posting! :)

	From: vexen	Date: December 27th, 2002 12:26 am (UTC)		(Link)

I think Nietzsche done himself good by rarely talking about women... but what little he does let out is quite revealing!

In real life I am generally silly-fun or quiet, always happy sounding, and people just wouldn't guess that when I sit down near a computer my fingers write some of the most pretentious text ever written by any amatuer anywhere!... :-), Empiress says that I write "authoritively", as in the manner of someone who is stating the unquestionable facts of how it is... my old text used to be much much worse, Vexen even used to write in third person!...

Erm... related essays (Pretentious Mode):

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/doubt.html (Doubt is the most important intellectual value)
http://www.vexen.co.uk/disclaimer.html (a disclaimer...)
http://www.vexen.co.uk/human/humour.html (Nietzsche on the necessity of self-humour)

From: xmen_rogue	Date: December 26th, 2002 03:33 pm (UTC)		(Link)

ooh~ I like the icon pic of that monstery figure sista vexen...it's so cute! :D~

	From: vexen	Date: December 26th, 2002 04:27 pm (UTC)		(Link)

It's yummy :-)

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