From: empiress	Date: January 5th, 2003 01:08 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Unlike many anti-Human moral systems, Satanism actively encourages healthier methods of self control than self denial: Our instincts cannot be suppressed, their expression can only be changed. The former is the pious way, the latter is the Human and healthy way.

Ascetism is quite misunderstood. Religious ascetics understand that our instincts cannot simply be "supressed,' no, they must be -transformed- into something else, into a great good. In the case of religious ascetics, self-denial is always towards the attainment of something else, something higher and more greatly desired, not simply repression. Ascetism derives from the word "athletic" and is an integral part of every culture. An athlete trains his/her body for physical excellence...or mental or spiritual excellence.

Ascetism emcompasses everything from hunting to martial arts to dance/drumming to ritualism to study/scholarship to prayer/fasting. Anything that requires discipline and a struggle to attain a higher "good" is "ascetic." Ascetism is healthy as long as it is not extreme or injurious to the practicer in some way. A student who overcomes their instinctive laziness through study in order to gain knowledge and earn a degree is an ascetic in the same way that a monk who practices fasting in order to attain self-discipline and overcome the slavery of their appetite is an ascetic. Anyone who has ever achieved anything of greatness understands the necessity of ascetism...of overcoming certain instincts, drives, or states in favor of a higher ambition or goal...the transformation of one into another. Of course, not all ascetic practices are for everyone and this must be acknowledged. But true ascetism is not anti-human, it is pro-human in its recognition of human potential and excellence.

Many other religious traditions reject part of Humanity... they reject our senses and become austerics and monacists, or they reject sexuality and become perverse, or they reject the ego and become uncaring about their own self

Yet religious would agree that simple rejection of one's self is entirely problematic. When a true ascetic removes an indulgence of the senses it is not out of rejection of their senses, it is in order to achieve more mental or spiritual awareness, etc. Meditation, in which one closes off one's senses and scattered thoughts, achieves -greater- awareness ultimately, not less. Religious do not simply teach the "rejection of ego" either, they teach putting the ego in its proper place...this is worlds apart from self-hate, self-abegnation or a lack of care for one's self. Ultimately ascetism leads to a higher "care" for oneself in that it seeks its own higher goals and ambitions.

	From: vexen	Date: January 5th, 2003 02:19 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Empiress if I become a millionaiire (sp? - I can't even spell it!) I'm going to have to employ you on some kind of part time basis (full time would be too torturous for you!).

I'm going to have to agree with everything you said... I tried, at that point in the text, to use "harsher" words than the more vague words I used, I didn't mean to imply that such a broad range of activity as is implies by ascetic... I was thinking more of self-mortification, self-flagellation, sexual abstinence, fasts that are more than a week long (excepting water...)... but I don't know a word to cover all of these more extreme things that distinguishes between them and the 'normal' ascetic 'self development' routines.

Your comparison between the ascetic and the scholar is true... and I'm definately not one to diss normal meditative techniques or awareness-enhancing disciplines. But... the criticism I gave (innacurately) in the paragraphs you pointed out is the same criticism (in my mind) that I give to Aleister Crowley and those of my own tradition who use mind altering drugs.

and hey... glad you're back by the way :-) I missed everyone over the darkest days, but New Year is going really well for everyone it seems! I have committed myself to producing a music album this year by the way! New Vexen behavior...! If you have a good connection, you can get my best track so far (Flesh.mp3) on: http://www.vexen.co.uk/ee.html

	From: empiress	Date: January 5th, 2003 03:23 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Hey...thank you for clarification. I agree with you that the extreme forms of ascetism are downright unhelpful...just as Shakyamuni Buddha discovered when he found the "middle way."

I tried to download your music but was unable to because it said the server was down? Not sure, but I'd really love to hear your music, so let me know! It's great that you'e moving forward with your musical interests. :)

	From: vexen	Date: January 5th, 2003 03:42 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Fixed... I needed to update my IP address, it changes occasionally. My album is going to be along the lines of "Flesh" opposed to the other two tracks I've put up... although I'm tempted to put Long Walk on as a kind of refrain track.

Note... although I'm going to try... everything is very very very very much in it's early stages.

I'm playing with a Vocoder... my voice almost sounds commercial quality with some of the tricks I can do with software modulation and noise, now! It's exciting :-) If production and learning continues, I may have to *not* put any more on my website and start taking it more seriously!