2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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vexen

Problems with Heaven

Problems with Heaven: Free Will and Evil


Searching for answers

(Anonymous)

2003-04-08 09:58 am (UTC)

Ever since I started going to church and seeing how people believe in the baptist religion, I have had this feeling something was not qite kosher. I am a big fan of science versus religion. I just have one question. If god created the earth in 7 days and adam and eve were the first human beings, then where does the dinosaurs, cavemen, and evolution come in to play. We have bones, paintings on cave walls, tools used by cavemen and dinosaur eggs as well as iron clad proof of these creatures and cavemen existing come from? I asked a preacher this once and he said after hesitating for a few momments, "God put them on earth to lead us astray." If he wants us all to be believers, then why lead us astray.
I have my own theory of religion. Human beings have to have something to believe in and we cannot go without knowledge. Be it truth or fiction. How many religions has there been in the history of the world? just to be safe, lets say over 100. So out of those 100 religions, christianity is the only right one? Being ignorant, and egotistical is a trademark of americans and christians. Many christians follow blindly their preachers and spiritual leaders without giving a second thought as to what they're being told. Is it truth or not? They dont think about that. What does religion mean? It is a belief. Now if a certain belief was true, for certain. Wouldnt they call it "The Way"?

Re: Searching for answers

(Anonymous)

2004-06-28 10:47 am (UTC)

"So out of those 100 religions, christianity is the only right one? "

There is a logical problem with your comment here. If Christians didnt beleive their faith was the only right one, then they wouldnt be Christians!!

If any religion is true then only that religion can be true. It is impossible for 100 different religions to all be true. So of course Christians will say that their faith is the only right one, because it would be illogical for them to say "actually we beleive that Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are all entirely true"

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!!!!great site!!!!

(Anonymous)

2003-09-17 12:43 pm (UTC)

Your site makes so much sense to me thank you, i thought god didnt exist and now i know he doesnt. religion causes wars and that sucks.

I think the idea of god was created to make people lead good lives. humans have taken it too far though. Religion uses fear to keep people at it. for example 'satan'. people dont want to go to 'hell' so they follow religion - simply because they are scared.

you probably know all this but im just telling you anyway.

James R Hunt (hunty_11@hotmail.com)

Re: !!!!great site!!!!

vexen

2003-09-17 03:10 pm (UTC)

A quote that I open the section on the Christian version of hell completely validates what you say about God, Satan and Hell... they were invented as means to make people behave better.

The quote starts... "The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers" from The Jesus Mysteries by Freke & Gandy, p90, as quoted on my page about Hell.

Plutarch (2000 year old philosopher) knew the same as you have realized.

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Problems With Heaven

(Anonymous)

2003-12-07 05:42 pm (UTC)

Well...who says that God, even if it is "immoral" or "wrong" doesn't have the power, or the right to well, smite us any darn way he pleases. HE IS GOD, Okay? GOD. He can do whatever he wants, of his own accord. If you were God of the world, you think that you would use power, well, to strike down lets say... that guy who you don't like at work? Yes. Somewhere along the line... we all know that we would probably make a few people "disappear". Which is why we aren't God. God is a compassionate God, even thought we, humans have sinned. WE messed things up in the beginning. and who are we to question his motives? FINALLY Have you ever thought about the fact that God might've previously known that these people would reject God? It's possible ~ Missy

Losing new Christians to Other Religions

(Anonymous)

2004-02-23 03:44 am (UTC)

I have been a christian for not more than a year. I was baptized last summer. I think that there is a problem with the way that we announce the Christian message. We should be more radical and make them think about christianity the way we want them to think about it. We have to show people that they aren't tied down by the rules and regulations that most people associate with Christianity. They need ot know that they don't have to go to church and sit through a boring preach every Sunday and that it isn't about becoming holy.

Please e-mail me at james@tilgate.freeuk.com

Re: Losing new Christians to Other Religions

zatamzar

2005-04-20 05:15 pm (UTC)

I am not by no means bashing you in any way. Just some food for thought.

"We should be more radical and make them think about christianity the way we want them to think about it."

We as Christians don't have to make them think about Christianity at all. We are Commissioned or compelled by the Holy Ghost (Christ within us) to tell others of the Crucified Christ on the cross and the Gift of grace he is giving you and me and whom ever wants to believe. Not everyone will belive as you can see by the views on this board but that is there prerogative and they will soon see what is in store for them.

"We have to show people that they aren't tied down by the rules and regulations that most people associate with Christianity."

We that are in christ don't have Rules like you said we choose to live our lives as best we can to resemble Christ. Though be-it we are never going to get that good at it but we all strive to do so that makes us the better the person. Christians that Live by the way of Christ are not bad people they do good in all things they do, when they mess up goof (SIN) that is the sin nature of Human coming out in us and we that are in Christ try our best to avoid those things and be a better Christian in the LORD Jesus Christ.

"They need ot know that they don't have to go to Church and sit through a boring preach every Sunday and that it isn't about becoming holy."

Truth be know you are correct! Christians are not forced or dragged, made or what have you to go to Chruch, tithe, help others, give to the needy, Ect... i could go on. BUT we as Christians WANT TO. We should want to be with the Lord everyday longing for his touch each and everyday. What better place to learn than to be around those that know of the Bible and that can teach you such thing you wish to know. Also to be around fellow Christians for the enjoyment and companionship cause believe me when you are With Christ and he With You, there is no better place to be, well for the time being.

Any Questions? drop me a line ZATAMZAR@HOTMAIL.COM

you are dumb!!!

(Anonymous)

2004-04-15 07:03 am (UTC)

nice try on trying to be smart!!! but the truth is people choose NOT to be evil...heaven is a place of serenity and love. they have no reason to be evil in heaven....would you do some of the sins we do to god if he was standing right in front of you?!?1 no. thats why there is no evil...there is nothing there that makes us evil...no war no jealousy or hate....duh!

Re: you are dumb!!!

vexen

2004-04-15 11:04 am (UTC)

In that case, why does God not appear in full glory in front of everyone, so that no-one ever does sin? If God has that affect on people, a good god would automatically appear in front of everyone in such a way. As God does NOT do this or does not have this affect, your defence of white light theory does not hold.

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GOD DOES EXIST

(Anonymous)

2004-10-25 10:11 am (UTC)

GOD created this world for everyone human and Jinn. Jinn are invisible beings made out of fire, they are different just like we are they are muslim, christian, atheist, hindi Jinn just like the human race, whom live aside us everyday. Some can travel at the speed of light others take their time. Some live inside the human and destroy their life until it is exorcised out of the individual. The power of GOD can never and should never be underestimated. You are wrong about alot of things. But it is good to ask questions? Search for your answers quickly because you only have the time on this earth to make your decision.
I have seen lots of people being exorcised believe me it is real.
GOD has given the power to the Devil (Shaytan - term for devil in Islam) to do as he wishes until the Day of Judgement. GOD has allowed his people free will to choose which path they deem right. Devil is no opposition to GOD, he challenged GOD, so GOD gave him a little power to whisper into the ears of humans to divert them off the right path. GOD / ALLAH first sent down the HOLY TORAH BY PROPHET MOSES which the JEWSISH PEOPLE seemingly follow, then the HOLY BIBLE WAS SENT DOWN by Prophet JESUS and the last book to be revealed was the Holy QURAN BY Prophet Mohammed Peace be upon and him and all the other Prophets which MUSLIMS follow. You cannot be a muslim if you do not beleive all the three prophets.
Anyone, who follows the devil is naive, and falling into the devils trap easily. The devil is happy and content to rid the humans of their faith because he has challenged GOD to divert his people of the right path. Every creature on this planet which is living i.e. animals, trees etc all offer their prayers to ALLAH. Except some humans whom choose not to because Allah / GOD has given us humans the right of free will.

On the topic of War, it is all the Devils plan, and to use this as an excuse to reject faith in GOD which is pure naiviety. WAR is created by the DEVIL to use humans as guinea p**'s to attack one another.

GOD's time will come, but until that time this is a test to see how strong we are in character to avoid getting trapped by the DEVIL.

So please, when you reject the idea of HEAVEN existing or GOD existing remember the DEVIL that sits on your left shoulder is partying whilst the good angel on your shoulder remains to be saddened. As you chances of going to Heaven are growing slim. But please, bear in mind, even though you have been as bad as the Devil, GOD will forgive you if you revert back to being a Muslim for his doors are opened until you cease to remain on this earth.

Re: GOD DOES EXIST

(Anonymous)

2005-09-16 09:46 pm (UTC)

that was a load of bullshit if he did exist then there would be no evil in anyone

Answer to all your Questions

(Anonymous)

2004-11-07 06:07 pm (UTC)

God, created this world, it is a test and a test which may i say each of you are failing, it is wrong to judge christians in general by the actions of a few individuals, the reason that God just doesn't put everyone in heaven is because that evil does exist, maybe you are smart enough to realise that, if heaven is to be perfect then evil cannot dwell there. Realise also that your are mocking and trying to find contradictions of Christianity, i have realised that all your verses stating anything bad about christianity come from the old testament, which was written before jesus came,.... Any more questions email me, PassionofChrist_@hotmail.com....... God bless

Re: Answer to all your Questions

vexen

2004-11-10 12:51 pm (UTC)

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_intro.html

The "testing" and "free will" explanations of evil were given up way back in the first and second centuries, I suggest you research the history of that type of argument.

this site

(Anonymous)

2005-02-20 09:46 pm (UTC)

This site is completely full of assumptions and incomplete reasoning. The author(s) of this site have taken their own presuppositions and ideas of morality and ethics and accused many millions of people of being idiots because they follow a different set of presuppositions.
this site is below me and I intend not to have anything to do with it anymore.

This site only has one author, me.

Where you see assumptions and presuppositions, feel free to point them out and question them.

determinism

(Anonymous)

2005-03-08 08:06 pm (UTC)

hi Vexen

From reading some of your comments i figured you had a deterministic view. Then i saw one of your pages was about determinism, i didnt have time to read it. is it sociobiological determinism, similar to Freud's? Have you read any Jung or any Carl Rodgers?

They give a slightly more hopeful view of personality and life in general, basically saying that people have a natural tendency to become something better than what they are. Its a lighter point of view.

Well I'm a sociologist, and have studied sociobiological determinism. It is generally held as only half the truth about human nature; the other half are internal factors that many put down to free will, personality, etc, and not purely externally caused affects.

However I personally believe that even the "other half" of humanity, aside from social causes & biological causes, are inherently determined.

Therefore I am a traditional, complete determinist. But within that framework, I view life as positive, amazing, wonderful, etc, as I am still a subjective human being living life the same as everyone else.

you are stupid f**k**g b*****ds

(Anonymous)

2005-05-04 10:16 pm (UTC)

You are the dumbest fattest most idiotic people under heaven. WHEN YOU GO TO HEAVEN YOU BECOME LIKE GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU DESPISE EVIL AND WOULD NEVER CHOSE TO DO EVIL; EVEN THOUGH THERE IS THE OPTION TO DO EVIL YOU NEVER WOULD no matter what.

Re: you are stupid f**k**g b*****ds

vexen

2005-05-08 06:12 pm (UTC)

If you believe that people in Heaven have free will, yet always choose good... why do you think God created evil? That God created evil means that God is not all-good. Some people say that free will requries evil; but if you believe there is no evil in heaven yet people there still have free will, it means you believe that evil isn't required for free will. This makes God itself evil and immoral for creating evil without a reason.

This argument is contained on http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_heaven.html

Be careful people...

(Anonymous)

2005-06-21 01:14 am (UTC)

especially what you write or say. many people do not think before they write something. now coming to the topic das "God actually exist!?" ...well surely something is existing out there. i got one big proof that there is a God... If again carefully...we are really different hey!? ...hehe. our bodys are so complex...and built so perfectly together!!! why that!? its quite strange hey...we look so different compared to animals. and every single human being is different from one another. even all the million animals, trees and plants are all so "unique" hey i repeat thats "UNIQUE"...don't tell me thats evolution...thats too much for evolution!!! if u really think about it...you will be amazed...and wonder where do we really come from!? many people say we evolved from monkeys...why all the monkeys today still the same as ever? there is something out there people! i got so much more proof...just don't have the time. But i can tell u this... God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Bible is all this true...all other religions are fake!!!

Re: Be careful people...

vexen

2005-06-21 07:46 pm (UTC)

1) Even if God exists, evolution is still the mechanism that created our species, and all other species. The facts are the facts. If you choose to beileve that God created evolution, then that's fine with me.

2) We're not built perfectly, our bodies have many redundant parts, bits that are disasterously prone to errors, genetics is far from perfect, mutations, cancers, etc, all result from genetics-gone-wrong, sometimes from chemical mistakes from before we're born.

3) Everything is unique because we all exist in time with different histories, even with identical twins. It doesn't mean that God exists.

4) We didn't evolve from monkeys, and even if we did, it wouldn't mean that monkeys would no longer exist. Evolution occurs fastest when a population (not necessarily the WHOLE population) moves into a seperate area in a different environment where different genes are advantageous and selected for... so, for example, within a species one half of them might migrate to a desert and so start evolving towards being desert-survivalists, whilst the others might stay in the trees and remain treefarers.

Finally... you clearly have very little understanding of chaos theory, complexity, evolution of science in general, I would advise studying science in general and evolution in particular before wasting my time any more; I don't have infinite patience with you kids.

really silly (Anonymous) Expand

Yeeah

(Anonymous)

2005-09-16 08:12 pm (UTC)

God just wants you to come as a little child would and except his gift... he doesn't want you to think about it because you are only human and you do not know as much as you think.. you are blind as to what you think you know and God died for you and u shouldn't disrepect him with the false site

1) Is everyone who doesn't believe in your religion "blind", then? How do you explain why the God you believe in creates blind people? If God wanted me to believe in it, then it wouldn't have created me with the type of intellect it has. Are you telling me that after God has created me "blind", YOU know better than your God, and think I shouldn't be "blind"? Aren't you going against your God's will?

2) God died? What are you talking about, you lunatic? Nothing infinite can die and nothing all-powerful can die. It *can* co-ordinate a mass of carbon atoms into an animated simile of a human, and have that biological body "die", but what, exactly, are you saying is the point of that puppeteering?

3) What is a "false site"? I regret to inform you that my site is very real, and the facts on it won't go away just because you don't like them. Nor are they "false" because you don't like them. If you disagree with the facts; then contradict them and find their faults. Assuming there are any.

My Thoughts

(Anonymous)

2006-03-25 05:08 am (UTC)

I am only 14 years old. Yet here I sit writing a message on the most famous philosophical debate of all time. Funny isn't it. I do not attend church yet I do go to God for help. The question we are here for is Does He exist? I can not say we shall never know cause some day we might. Humans have done some pretty extraordinary things so you never know. Now I do not believe in God as Christianity, Islam, or Judaism sees it. I all I know is that some one or something is looking out for man Kind. And like all beings, cosmic or insect, he makes a mistake. Or she. Now, many people ask us Where was He at 9/11? And further more more of the claims to seeing the Devils face in the smoke. They claim this as a denial of God. WHy? He may be God but is not satan derived from the same origin? Heaven. He has the same powers as does God. How does this stop Him from losing once in a while. Steve Prefontaine lost. Muhammad Ali lost. Think about but I am satisfied know that atleast something up there is watching out for us.

Ah ... Very Scienctifically intriguing

great site, with some incredible arguments

But I don't think we're supposed to think that God is benevolent. It never says this in the Bible (to my knowledge). Everybody tries to make God look all good and wonderfull, and say how much he loves us and everything, but let's face it, the Bible says that God is for HIMSELF before he is for us...I believe he loves us, but he loves himself MUCH MORE

So my explanation for why there is evil, is because it is for some reason (that we don't understand) beneficial to Gods plan. and Gods' plan (of course) is for the good pleasure of HIS will not ours!

I mean, after all, if there is no evil, or suffering, then there is no hell either. And if there's no hell, then that means it's not as important to know, and believe in Jesus, because there would be nothing to fear. And if God was benevolent, then there would be no reason to fear him, however Jesus warned us often of the capabilites of God, and the unimaginable horrors he could, and would cause you in hell if you break his laws, and don't repent.

I don't agree with people who say that the Bible contradicts itself in saying that God is love, and then saying that he has evil emotions as well, like anger, and jeolousy. You can be more then one thing. If you're loving, that doesn't mean that you can't hate as well at times.


I agree that if there is a God, it is the evil-type God that you describe. Try "The Christian God of the Bible is Evil" by Vexen Crabtree (2006) and "If there is a god, it is evil" by Vexen Crabtree (2003). The former looks at many of the actual verses you are referring to; God is described as evil and selfish, jealous and warmongering, etc.

There is no reason to know Jesus anyway... don't forget that Moses and other Christian forefathers are in Heaven... and they certainly didn't know Jesus (as they lived hundreds of years before anyone on Earth would even hear of him!). It isn't true that you have to know Jesus to get to heaven. See
"The Crucifixion facade" by Vexen Crabtree (2002) for more.

I Agree

(Anonymous)

2007-08-13 05:56 am (UTC)

I Agree, but God hates what we're doing when we sin against him, He doesn't hate us. Its Just like being a father, you don't hate your child when he disobeys you(unless you are a psycho maniac that beats your kid), you hate what he's doing.
And there was also a man who was in one of the twin toweres at 9/11. He was a fair way up the building when the plane hit, etc.. the building came down while he was in it so he curled up in a ball, prayed to Jesus and found himself sitting on top of all the rubble. Can you explain that vexen?

Is your argument for your religion based on a miraculous survivor of a disaster? Because I can tell you for sure, that in China, there are hundreds of times more occurances of miraculous survivals (because China has a much higher population, and a worse record for disasters of most kinds). How do you explain, Mr Anonymous, the fact that all those Chinese people (who are on the whole non-Christian) survive disasters miraculously?

The reason YOU asked is because it is an easy question to ask, but a hard question to answer. So what is YOUR answer as to why so many more Buddhists in China miraculously survive disasters than do American Christians?

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