Vexen Crabtree 2015

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


Previous Entry Share Next Entry
Vexen Crabtree 2015
vexen

If there is a god, it is an evil one not a good one

(It's been far too long since I wrote some Satanism text... so here is some!)

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html

This text presents three arguments that if there is a god, it is an evil god. Each of the three arguments take a standard argument for theism and use it to uncover the truth that an evil god is more likely to exist than a good one. Each argument also has a "sensible refrain" that looks at the evidence from a normal atheist point of view, without making the assumption that a god of any kind exists.

Contents:


  1. 1. Existence of suffering
  2. 2. Dominance of death in nature
  3. 3. The evil god remains hidden and teasing
  4. 4. Conclusion
Tags: , ,

Cheers Mate! Do you remember me? Its Catatonic from uk_goffs. I sent you an e-mail but since you haven't answered, I'll just be a fucking nag and get to you through LJ. How's everything? Lovely I hope, because things aren't going all that bloody good down here. For over six months or so, the lads down here at CR-Gothic (Costa Rica Gothic) had been planning and organizing and putting together what would be the first Gothic Art/Music/Literature Festival ever in this country. I was to take place at an abandoned Sanitarium up in the cold mountains of a region called "Whitelands of Prussia", translated of course. The activity was supposed to take place today, and it was going to last up till tomorrow afty. So happens that on wednesday the bishop from the local parrish informed the people of this rural community that a "Satanist Cult" was taking place near them and that their lives and souls where in danger (let me mention that the activity had no religious purpose at all, and much less had anything to do with satanism, paganism, wicca, or whatever else argument he could bring up). The community is mostly catholic and they all supported this man when he motioned them to protest against this "evil" thing that was infesting their peaceful community. The main organizer of the festival, a friend of mine, decided to cancel the event and lose the whole investment, because he felt that there might be some kind of violent intervention on behalf of the community while the event took place. We did not cancel because of a legal issue or anything of the matter, but simply because we feared that someone could get hurt if they tried to interrupt our festival (knowing how catholics tend to get a wee bit violent when they want something gone). Now, we are pissed right off our fucking bollocks, and we intend to sue this wanker and the Catholic Church in this country for taking action against something without previously consulting with the organizers of the activity, for labeling us as something we are not, lying to his people, and for making us lose a lot of money, time and sweat. Our first idea is that everyone who was going to the festival, sign a document to show their support for a legal action against the church and more specifically, the plank from that parrish.

Now, I know you know shite (I hope), and I was wondering if I could have your opinion on the whole situation, maybe even a scrap of advice. I know this is the kind of thing that you must just find to be right up your alley.

Re: Cheers Mate

(Anonymous)
Remember this ... Catholics are NOT Christians. Their "religion" is cultic. Jesus is just thrown in, etc. The pagans invented Catholicism. So, make sure when you are putting down the Catholics, that you DON'T call them Christians. Thanks!

Re: Cheers Mate (Anonymous) Expand
Costa Rica Padre (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Cheers Mate (Anonymous) Expand
(1) and (2) are the same argument, with the same flaw: you implicitly assume that the absence of absolute good implies absolute evil. I kinda like (3) though.

Thought inspiring!

You are right about (1) and (2), I suppose I definately need to add a "sensible refrain" to both of them adding the very likely possibility, one which I think to be totally sensible, of a morally-irrelevant God, whose plans have nothing to do with either suffering or pleasure, and that we, Human Beings, are simply viewing things wrongly, or are simply not really part of a great scheme of creation.

I.e., it could be God's intent to create supercomputers to play chess with, and we're merely a tool, therefore our suffering is irrelevent to the greater good.

Actually the possibilities are pretty much endless, I should just, perhaps, add the text "If the only gods that exist are "benevolent" or "malevolent", then the latter is more likely..."

(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
hmmm, interesting...although I would incline more towards the idea that if there were a god (and I'm against the belief that there is) then it would be more a neutral, neither good nor evil. More of a laissez-faire bloke. I mean, sure there is a lot of pain, death, suffering, and an endless list of horrid things...but there is also and endless list of moments of joy and happiness, of warm lovely feelings. So, if there is a god, I don't think he/she would have any part whatsoever in evil or good, it just created things and let them happen. On the other hand, if he did have some sort of determination...he would be a bloody sadist, creating sides to war against eachother, and striking thoughts of pain, vengance and thirst for blood in people. But the existence of a conscious god is near impossible. Could a conscious person really allow all this? Now, seeing things from the natural point of view, in nature there is always a bigger fish eating a little fish. There is always something that will destroy another. And so it is in humans, because we are a part of nature. Because we developed dexterity and "reason", we have come to the point where we simply use this abilities to extend those natural carnal, animal instincts. I believe its just all a part of nature, no participation of a god whatsoever...but if there was one, he would either be a sadist, or a neutral

There is a flaw in 3. You can use the same arguements for saying god is not evil. If he was truly evil, he would have to only be able to do evil, thus it not being a evil god mearly a god doing evil. so god would have to be neutral.

Yet again, great essay! I can't say I'm strongly in favor of purely good/evil dualism, but I agree with your assessments on death and nature. Of course, I'm not a big *believer* in "god" either except in a more abstract sense, and maybe we create our OWN good and evil, but your writing is very thought-provoking.

How's the music project going?
When do you start your military stint?

:)


Yeah this text was definately one to please the more /theistic/ type!

Music project is going very slowly at the moment, in particular I'm skint but waiting to buy a particular new piece of software. I've hit the limits of what I can do with my mix-match of odd bits of ill-suited software!

I have psychometric tests to look forward too, but should do basic training this year (3-months soldier training).

Spiritual forces "do" exist.

(Anonymous)
"Saying one set of things to one group of people; appearing as a multitude of gods to others, and appearing not at all to many."

I believe that the so-called "spirits of Satan" are the lost souls of those evil ones who have perished. Every living thing on this planet has its own spirit/soul, and can attach itself positively or negatively to other spirits after death. How do you think the spirit of Jesus Christ lives on? It is a God spirit, that goes into the souls of those people who accept it, adding strength, vigor, and regeneration. Maybe the spirit of Jesus was embedded with an even stronger spirit when he was alive, and that is why he called him "His father", or our traditional "God". Satanic spirits, and God spirits alike, may show themselves visibly, but solely in the mind of the person who has them. That is why a group of people may see or witness something from the same spirit, but always differently than everyone else, and not from that spirit itself, but from that which has embedded itself with their spirits.

That's what I believe after examining your essays, and the personal experiences of myself and my wife here in Toronto, Canada. Death is still and always permanent, but the tiny spark that was created when you were born, and developed and changed throughout the course of your life never dies. And by one spirit connecting with those of others whose bodies are alive, similarly connects with their minds also. This can produce incredible surreal experiences for some individuals, and possibly even reality-based effects, though I have never witnessed this, and doubt its existence.

P.S. Your writings are very intellectually fullfilling. Keep up the great work!

God

(Anonymous)
Has anyone read Zecharia Sitchins work? If you haven't then you should read the 12th Planet it explains why god can be evil and good. I'm saying no more as it will spoil it, the book is an eye opener and will ruin Christianity forever.

Re: God

(Anonymous)
god is not evil its satan who rules this world.

Re: God (Anonymous) Expand
I would like to suggest that maybe we are merely in the unfolding of something caused by a creator and are not seeing a finished project, so to speak, so it's a little early on to be conclusive.
truthCHANGESyou@hotmail.com

Reasonable assumption to make, but I think it's more likely we're part of the unfolding of the universe as dictated by impersonal forces, not a Creator.

LIER

(Anonymous)
you know what GOd in Heaven Is really and you will burn in hell for worshiping another god. I'll Be praying for you may God bless you.

The word is "liar", and yes, I think you've been thoroughly tricked and lied to. If there is a god, it is evil, and has tricked you, because you are gullible, into thinking it's good. You're just a sheep, being herded by a shephard who intends on devouring you alive. If I was you, I'd be skeptical of what you believe.

You accuse me of worshipping another God... HOW MANY gods do you think exist???

If I do not believe in your God (so far you haven't actually told me what God(s) you believe in, so I don't know), then shouldn't your God get off it's backside and introduce itself to me? Or is it going to "burn me in hell" simply because I'm too clever to fall for pathetic organized religion?

Re: LIER (Anonymous) Expand
Re: LIER (Anonymous) Expand
Re: LIER (Anonymous) Expand
Re: LIER (Anonymous) Expand
Re: LIER (Anonymous) Expand

God is Evil

(Anonymous)
I believe that God is cruel, uncaring, and hateful. I believe that by all of the pain that God causes everyone, he is not someone who should be loved or worshipped. I believe that God is not good and never answers anyone's prayers. I believe that God shows everyday that he does not care about anyone by his actions. There are many people in this world who are either atheists or hate God. Based on so many heartaches, heartbreaks, misery and devastation that occurs in so many people's lives, they have every right to feel that way. I believe, as so many others do, that God, religion and the bible are a waste of time and are extremely offensive. I believe that God is cruel and uncaring. Nobody asks to have cancer, heart disease, alzheimer's disease, or any of the other devastating diseases. I believe that God murders people with those diseases, everyday. I believe that God lets terrible, cruel, devastating things happen to people when he has the power to prevent it but choses not to. Based on those beliefs, I believe that that God does not love. I believe that God should be condemned, not praised. I believe that God is what total and complete evil is all about. For the extreme pain that he causes me and so many others, I will always hate him. I am now and always will be 100% secure in my beleifs against God and his meanness and his cruelty.

Re: God is Evil

(Anonymous)
okay..ibelieve that everyone is entitled to have there own say.. i dont know much about the bible as i am a muslim, but i just wanna tell you my point of view on this issue. PLEASE READ THIS, DONT DISCARD IT JUST BECAUSE I AM A MUSLIM. basically it all comes down to freewill. many people in the world dont care about god, or obey him...if we dont want god in our life, then why do we ask him for help at the last minute, or whenever something bad is about to happen. for example; say you have a very good friend, but you dont talk or listen to that friend, wont the friend feel hurt if his/her's friend isnt replying to them? how would you feel? god is like that friend, he doesnt want anything in return.. just slightt obedience. now back to freewill..im sure you must have heard this many times WE REAP WHAT WE SOW. it is true. we have freewill from god, he lets us do whatever we want, if something bad happens then (out of our own accord) then why do we blame god? its not god's fault. its ours. now...about cancer etc...god doesnt cause this, science now tells us that it is either passed on from generation to generation, or a few factors like radiation cause it. if god isnt causing this, then why do we blame him? now..you must be thinking that okay, he doesnt cause it..so if he is a good god why doesnt he help? the answer to this is that nobody wants him to. nobody goes to church or mosques regularly. nobody cares about god. then why, when someone gets a disease, or something bad happens, why does everyone blame god, and prays to him at the last minute? think of it like this...if your friend did the same to you (whatever people do to god like hating him etc) would you help her/him if they asked at the last minute? i know that i wouldnt. i hope this reply has helped to to change your mind about god. maybe if you pray REGULARLY then him will definitly help. there is a little saying that goes 'when you pray to god, he will always take time to answer that prayer, but if it is legitimate, then he will definitly answer'. i dont want you to think that i am converting you. im not. i just want you to see the other side of the coin. i am sorry if i sounded offensive...i didnt mean to.

Re: God is Evil (Anonymous) Expand
Re: God is Evil (Anonymous) Expand
Re: God is Evil (Anonymous) Expand
Re: God is Evil (Anonymous) Expand

There is no evil god or is there a good god.

(Anonymous)
The basic logic to there being an evil god, is that there is a god at all.
If you start with the assumption that there is no god, and that we evolved from random events, it tends to make more sense.
There is no good or evil, but just what 'is'. There's beauty in a sunset, in newborn creatures, in music, etc., and there's evil in senseless murders, cancers, and violence, again...etc. It a subjective reaction to the world that 'is'.
What we have is a world that we must adjust to. A world that says that in order for you to survive, you must adjust to what 'is'. There is no evil god who punishes us or is there a good god we rewards our pleas for help.
We are the results of an impartial 'all this is'.

If god is good,everything should be good, not bad

(Anonymous)
I believe there is no good or evil god, I believe there in no god at all.

Re: If god is good,everything should be good, not bad

(Anonymous)
There is more proof of a non-existing god than there is of an existing god. Life is a mystery. In the meantime I will treasure this once in a life time. Because death is permanent. Life is temporary, death is permanent. Have a good life. Before birth we were in a state of non-existence, that's what I believe death is.

Don't Read This

(Anonymous)
Hmmm. I am not in any organized religion, "evil" or "good". I have studied many in pursuit of "God". I have come to find that there is a God, but he is more of an observer than a participator. We are responsible for our own lives, not him. WE decided before we even got here, what challenges we were to face. WE decided what we would be confronted with, and here we decide what to do with it.
Life is not about "EVIL" VS. "GOOD"; because there is really no such thing. These concepts were created by men thousands of years ago in hopes for power over the community.
These men created these concepts to "scare people into church". In order to have power and recieve much money from the church-goers.
So you say, what about murder, rape and stealing? Well the majority would say ---> evil; I would say waste of time that could be spent making progress in your life (and also hurtful to others; which in turn slows the progress in their life).

So my point is, why are you focusing on "AN EVIL GOD"? Why not spend the time focusing on your life and how you can grow into a better person?
That is what life is....it's really simple, we just have to make it very complicated......

Re: Don't Read This

(Anonymous)
nice comment im the one with the comment who cant spell the one where it says went to whitely abbey lol not that ull no wat i mean

If god is love, who created hate

(Anonymous)
If god created heaven and earth he created everything else, because he is the creator, the ruler of the universe. How can hate come from love, just don't get it.

Re: If god is love, who created hate

(Anonymous)
You call all of the pain and sufering that he lets happen love? There is no logical evidence that if there is a God he loves but there is plenty of evidence to show that if there is a God he hates. If you took a look around at all of thepain and suffering or listenned to the news you would get it.

Interesting arguments. I suppose I'm only posing a negative criticism here, but you did make some thoughtful points that I'll continue to consider, especially the 'likelihood when considering world history' notion.

Argument 1.1, by the second sentence has forgotten the free will that it proposed in the first. If God is all-good and has free will, and creates a being that is not God, and gives it free will, obviously this new being can turn its free will towards evil. That's the essence of free will.

For 1.3, if life were truly built on death, wouldn't life eventually drive itself into extinction? Evolution would work in reverse: new, higher organisms, requiring more energy derived from death, would cause more death. Somehow the balance has worked out, however, and life is sustained. Anyway, it may certainly seem, in ignorance, that it's odd that things must eat other things to survive; but I'm not sure that this points to a malevolent God. After all, autotrophic organisms (like plants) and heterotrophic organisms (such as ourselves) live in fairly perfect symbiosis. We can't survive without ingesting the energy that comes only from plants. This is true. But plants can't survive without the waste products of our cellular respiration. The chemical equation for photosynthesis is the mirror-reverse of the chemical equation for cellular respiration. It seems more like a complex and masterful coordination than anything sinister. What you're seriously suggesting, perhaps, is that a good God would only create photosynthesizing life forms, because you find it horrible that we must eat plants to survive. But what if plants were partly intended to be heterotrophic food? What if there's no morality attached to the death of a plant?

Your "sensible refrain", 2.3, is only correct that physical constructs in this universe our temporary; and living things being physical, they too are temporary. I don't see how this is disharmony, per se, and I don't see how this means life is incidental to the universe. I'm not even sure what you mean by that phrase, because everything in the universe is incidental to everything else. The nonliving universe no more exists to produce life than life exists to produce new arrangements of nonliving matter.

3, in general, assumes that God is hidden, which seems arguable in light of our free will and our non-omniscience. It's certainly possible that God is everywhere, to the extent that we can't find a particular object called God; or that over thousands of generations we've raised ourselves to avoid seeing it.

In 4, the oft-presented argument that God cannot choose evil, it's being forgotten that a morally perfect being, by definition, will do whatever is morally perfect; such a definition cannot tell us whether he wills this or not. For all we know, he may just continually choose never to do evil, which seems likely if evil is incompatible with his will. You may as well say that the fact that I did a particular thing is indicative of the fact that I could do nothing other than it. That's the eloquent assumptive fallacy of determinism.

Hi, thanks for playing... note that at the moment I'm spending extended periods offline due to work. I'm online until Sunday ATM.

1.1. No, the first sentance says "God has free will AND is perfectly good", by implication a "perfectly good" being does not create evil, therefore if God was good, it would create beings that were also perfectly good AND had free will.

ALSO, I do not agree that the essence of free will is only to choose between good and evil. There are millions of choices in life, and I don't agree that results of some of these choices have to be "evil" in order for choices, free will, to exist. Free will is the ability to choose between different goods just as much as it would be to "choose" good or evil. Also note that much of the time evil, suffering, is an unintended result of our actions. If "evil" was a result of free will, or tied to it, it wouldn't occur accidentally. I think it's clear that free will does not require evil, nor that evil is only a result of free will.

Natural evil, accidental evil, etc, are all big clues that free will is only another natural form of evil, piled on top of already-existing created evil. All this means that to say that god only created evil in order to sustain free will must be wrong - there is plenty of evil whether or not it's been created as a result of free will!

I've got a (hopefully) fuller set of pages on the problem of evil and failture of free will theodicy, an intro is here: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_freewill.html

God does exist and indeed he is evil!

(Anonymous)
God does exist and because he is more than evil he likes everyone to call him kind and loving, like the 'emperor with the new clothing', but the difference is he himself better than anyone knows he is awful and he loves the game, and at the end no ones gonna know who he is going to take to hell or heaven, after all such a God has no fear of tricking.



?

Log in

No account? Create an account