2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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2003Apr Shaved head
vexen

If there is a god, it is an evil one not a good one

(It's been far too long since I wrote some Satanism text... so here is some!)

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html

This text presents three arguments that if there is a god, it is an evil god. Each of the three arguments take a standard argument for theism and use it to uncover the truth that an evil god is more likely to exist than a good one. Each argument also has a "sensible refrain" that looks at the evidence from a normal atheist point of view, without making the assumption that a god of any kind exists.

Contents:


  1. 1. Existence of suffering
  2. 2. Dominance of death in nature
  3. 3. The evil god remains hidden and teasing
  4. 4. Conclusion
Tags: , ,

Page 1 of 4
<<[1] [2] [3] [4] >>
Cheers Mate! Do you remember me? Its Catatonic from uk_goffs. I sent you an e-mail but since you haven't answered, I'll just be a fucking nag and get to you through LJ. How's everything? Lovely I hope, because things aren't going all that bloody good down here. For over six months or so, the lads down here at CR-Gothic (Costa Rica Gothic) had been planning and organizing and putting together what would be the first Gothic Art/Music/Literature Festival ever in this country. I was to take place at an abandoned Sanitarium up in the cold mountains of a region called "Whitelands of Prussia", translated of course. The activity was supposed to take place today, and it was going to last up till tomorrow afty. So happens that on wednesday the bishop from the local parrish informed the people of this rural community that a "Satanist Cult" was taking place near them and that their lives and souls where in danger (let me mention that the activity had no religious purpose at all, and much less had anything to do with satanism, paganism, wicca, or whatever else argument he could bring up). The community is mostly catholic and they all supported this man when he motioned them to protest against this "evil" thing that was infesting their peaceful community. The main organizer of the festival, a friend of mine, decided to cancel the event and lose the whole investment, because he felt that there might be some kind of violent intervention on behalf of the community while the event took place. We did not cancel because of a legal issue or anything of the matter, but simply because we feared that someone could get hurt if they tried to interrupt our festival (knowing how catholics tend to get a wee bit violent when they want something gone). Now, we are pissed right off our fucking bollocks, and we intend to sue this wanker and the Catholic Church in this country for taking action against something without previously consulting with the organizers of the activity, for labeling us as something we are not, lying to his people, and for making us lose a lot of money, time and sweat. Our first idea is that everyone who was going to the festival, sign a document to show their support for a legal action against the church and more specifically, the plank from that parrish.

Now, I know you know shite (I hope), and I was wondering if I could have your opinion on the whole situation, maybe even a scrap of advice. I know this is the kind of thing that you must just find to be right up your alley.

Re: Cheers Mate

(Anonymous)

2004-12-14 05:17 pm (UTC)

Remember this ... Catholics are NOT Christians. Their "religion" is cultic. Jesus is just thrown in, etc. The pagans invented Catholicism. So, make sure when you are putting down the Catholics, that you DON'T call them Christians. Thanks!

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Costa Rica Padre (Anonymous) Expand
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(1) and (2) are the same argument, with the same flaw: you implicitly assume that the absence of absolute good implies absolute evil. I kinda like (3) though.

Thought inspiring!

vexen

2003-08-02 01:04 pm (UTC)

You are right about (1) and (2), I suppose I definately need to add a "sensible refrain" to both of them adding the very likely possibility, one which I think to be totally sensible, of a morally-irrelevant God, whose plans have nothing to do with either suffering or pleasure, and that we, Human Beings, are simply viewing things wrongly, or are simply not really part of a great scheme of creation.

I.e., it could be God's intent to create supercomputers to play chess with, and we're merely a tool, therefore our suffering is irrelevent to the greater good.

Actually the possibilities are pretty much endless, I should just, perhaps, add the text "If the only gods that exist are "benevolent" or "malevolent", then the latter is more likely..."

(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
hmmm, interesting...although I would incline more towards the idea that if there were a god (and I'm against the belief that there is) then it would be more a neutral, neither good nor evil. More of a laissez-faire bloke. I mean, sure there is a lot of pain, death, suffering, and an endless list of horrid things...but there is also and endless list of moments of joy and happiness, of warm lovely feelings. So, if there is a god, I don't think he/she would have any part whatsoever in evil or good, it just created things and let them happen. On the other hand, if he did have some sort of determination...he would be a bloody sadist, creating sides to war against eachother, and striking thoughts of pain, vengance and thirst for blood in people. But the existence of a conscious god is near impossible. Could a conscious person really allow all this? Now, seeing things from the natural point of view, in nature there is always a bigger fish eating a little fish. There is always something that will destroy another. And so it is in humans, because we are a part of nature. Because we developed dexterity and "reason", we have come to the point where we simply use this abilities to extend those natural carnal, animal instincts. I believe its just all a part of nature, no participation of a god whatsoever...but if there was one, he would either be a sadist, or a neutral

There is a flaw in 3. You can use the same arguements for saying god is not evil. If he was truly evil, he would have to only be able to do evil, thus it not being a evil god mearly a god doing evil. so god would have to be neutral.

Yet again, great essay! I can't say I'm strongly in favor of purely good/evil dualism, but I agree with your assessments on death and nature. Of course, I'm not a big *believer* in "god" either except in a more abstract sense, and maybe we create our OWN good and evil, but your writing is very thought-provoking.

How's the music project going?
When do you start your military stint?

:)


Yeah this text was definately one to please the more /theistic/ type!

Music project is going very slowly at the moment, in particular I'm skint but waiting to buy a particular new piece of software. I've hit the limits of what I can do with my mix-match of odd bits of ill-suited software!

I have psychometric tests to look forward too, but should do basic training this year (3-months soldier training).

Spiritual forces "do" exist.

(Anonymous)

2003-09-13 01:38 pm (UTC)

"Saying one set of things to one group of people; appearing as a multitude of gods to others, and appearing not at all to many."

I believe that the so-called "spirits of Satan" are the lost souls of those evil ones who have perished. Every living thing on this planet has its own spirit/soul, and can attach itself positively or negatively to other spirits after death. How do you think the spirit of Jesus Christ lives on? It is a God spirit, that goes into the souls of those people who accept it, adding strength, vigor, and regeneration. Maybe the spirit of Jesus was embedded with an even stronger spirit when he was alive, and that is why he called him "His father", or our traditional "God". Satanic spirits, and God spirits alike, may show themselves visibly, but solely in the mind of the person who has them. That is why a group of people may see or witness something from the same spirit, but always differently than everyone else, and not from that spirit itself, but from that which has embedded itself with their spirits.

That's what I believe after examining your essays, and the personal experiences of myself and my wife here in Toronto, Canada. Death is still and always permanent, but the tiny spark that was created when you were born, and developed and changed throughout the course of your life never dies. And by one spirit connecting with those of others whose bodies are alive, similarly connects with their minds also. This can produce incredible surreal experiences for some individuals, and possibly even reality-based effects, though I have never witnessed this, and doubt its existence.

P.S. Your writings are very intellectually fullfilling. Keep up the great work!

Has anyone read Zecharia Sitchins work? If you haven't then you should read the 12th Planet it explains why god can be evil and good. I'm saying no more as it will spoil it, the book is an eye opener and will ruin Christianity forever.

Re: God

(Anonymous)

2004-10-06 07:54 am (UTC)

god is not evil its satan who rules this world.

Re: God (Anonymous) Expand
I would like to suggest that maybe we are merely in the unfolding of something caused by a creator and are not seeing a finished project, so to speak, so it's a little early on to be conclusive.
truthCHANGESyou@hotmail.com

Reasonable assumption to make, but I think it's more likely we're part of the unfolding of the universe as dictated by impersonal forces, not a Creator.

LIER

(Anonymous)

2003-11-19 09:04 am (UTC)

you know what GOd in Heaven Is really and you will burn in hell for worshiping another god. I'll Be praying for you may God bless you.

The word is "liar", and yes, I think you've been thoroughly tricked and lied to. If there is a god, it is evil, and has tricked you, because you are gullible, into thinking it's good. You're just a sheep, being herded by a shephard who intends on devouring you alive. If I was you, I'd be skeptical of what you believe.

You accuse me of worshipping another God... HOW MANY gods do you think exist???

If I do not believe in your God (so far you haven't actually told me what God(s) you believe in, so I don't know), then shouldn't your God get off it's backside and introduce itself to me? Or is it going to "burn me in hell" simply because I'm too clever to fall for pathetic organized religion?

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God is Evil

(Anonymous)

2003-12-01 08:45 am (UTC)

I believe that God is cruel, uncaring, and hateful. I believe that by all of the pain that God causes everyone, he is not someone who should be loved or worshipped. I believe that God is not good and never answers anyone's prayers. I believe that God shows everyday that he does not care about anyone by his actions. There are many people in this world who are either atheists or hate God. Based on so many heartaches, heartbreaks, misery and devastation that occurs in so many people's lives, they have every right to feel that way. I believe, as so many others do, that God, religion and the bible are a waste of time and are extremely offensive. I believe that God is cruel and uncaring. Nobody asks to have cancer, heart disease, alzheimer's disease, or any of the other devastating diseases. I believe that God murders people with those diseases, everyday. I believe that God lets terrible, cruel, devastating things happen to people when he has the power to prevent it but choses not to. Based on those beliefs, I believe that that God does not love. I believe that God should be condemned, not praised. I believe that God is what total and complete evil is all about. For the extreme pain that he causes me and so many others, I will always hate him. I am now and always will be 100% secure in my beleifs against God and his meanness and his cruelty.

Re: God is Evil

(Anonymous)

2004-06-20 06:31 am (UTC)

okay..ibelieve that everyone is entitled to have there own say.. i dont know much about the bible as i am a muslim, but i just wanna tell you my point of view on this issue. PLEASE READ THIS, DONT DISCARD IT JUST BECAUSE I AM A MUSLIM. basically it all comes down to freewill. many people in the world dont care about god, or obey him...if we dont want god in our life, then why do we ask him for help at the last minute, or whenever something bad is about to happen. for example; say you have a very good friend, but you dont talk or listen to that friend, wont the friend feel hurt if his/her's friend isnt replying to them? how would you feel? god is like that friend, he doesnt want anything in return.. just slightt obedience. now back to freewill..im sure you must have heard this many times WE REAP WHAT WE SOW. it is true. we have freewill from god, he lets us do whatever we want, if something bad happens then (out of our own accord) then why do we blame god? its not god's fault. its ours. now...about cancer etc...god doesnt cause this, science now tells us that it is either passed on from generation to generation, or a few factors like radiation cause it. if god isnt causing this, then why do we blame him? now..you must be thinking that okay, he doesnt cause it..so if he is a good god why doesnt he help? the answer to this is that nobody wants him to. nobody goes to church or mosques regularly. nobody cares about god. then why, when someone gets a disease, or something bad happens, why does everyone blame god, and prays to him at the last minute? think of it like this...if your friend did the same to you (whatever people do to god like hating him etc) would you help her/him if they asked at the last minute? i know that i wouldnt. i hope this reply has helped to to change your mind about god. maybe if you pray REGULARLY then him will definitly help. there is a little saying that goes 'when you pray to god, he will always take time to answer that prayer, but if it is legitimate, then he will definitly answer'. i dont want you to think that i am converting you. im not. i just want you to see the other side of the coin. i am sorry if i sounded offensive...i didnt mean to.

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There is no evil god or is there a good god.

(Anonymous)

2003-12-12 09:50 pm (UTC)

The basic logic to there being an evil god, is that there is a god at all.
If you start with the assumption that there is no god, and that we evolved from random events, it tends to make more sense.
There is no good or evil, but just what 'is'. There's beauty in a sunset, in newborn creatures, in music, etc., and there's evil in senseless murders, cancers, and violence, again...etc. It a subjective reaction to the world that 'is'.
What we have is a world that we must adjust to. A world that says that in order for you to survive, you must adjust to what 'is'. There is no evil god who punishes us or is there a good god we rewards our pleas for help.
We are the results of an impartial 'all this is'.

If god is good,everything should be good, not bad

(Anonymous)

2003-12-16 03:56 pm (UTC)

I believe there is no good or evil god, I believe there in no god at all.

Re: If god is good,everything should be good, not bad

(Anonymous)

2003-12-16 04:25 pm (UTC)

There is more proof of a non-existing god than there is of an existing god. Life is a mystery. In the meantime I will treasure this once in a life time. Because death is permanent. Life is temporary, death is permanent. Have a good life. Before birth we were in a state of non-existence, that's what I believe death is.

Don't Read This

(Anonymous)

2003-12-19 09:22 am (UTC)

Hmmm. I am not in any organized religion, "evil" or "good". I have studied many in pursuit of "God". I have come to find that there is a God, but he is more of an observer than a participator. We are responsible for our own lives, not him. WE decided before we even got here, what challenges we were to face. WE decided what we would be confronted with, and here we decide what to do with it.
Life is not about "EVIL" VS. "GOOD"; because there is really no such thing. These concepts were created by men thousands of years ago in hopes for power over the community.
These men created these concepts to "scare people into church". In order to have power and recieve much money from the church-goers.
So you say, what about murder, rape and stealing? Well the majority would say ---> evil; I would say waste of time that could be spent making progress in your life (and also hurtful to others; which in turn slows the progress in their life).

So my point is, why are you focusing on "AN EVIL GOD"? Why not spend the time focusing on your life and how you can grow into a better person?
That is what life is....it's really simple, we just have to make it very complicated......

Re: Don't Read This

(Anonymous)

2004-08-29 05:27 pm (UTC)

nice comment im the one with the comment who cant spell the one where it says went to whitely abbey lol not that ull no wat i mean

If god is love, who created hate

(Anonymous)

2003-12-20 09:15 pm (UTC)

If god created heaven and earth he created everything else, because he is the creator, the ruler of the universe. How can hate come from love, just don't get it.

Re: If god is love, who created hate

(Anonymous)

2003-12-26 08:59 pm (UTC)

You call all of the pain and sufering that he lets happen love? There is no logical evidence that if there is a God he loves but there is plenty of evidence to show that if there is a God he hates. If you took a look around at all of thepain and suffering or listenned to the news you would get it.

Interesting arguments. I suppose I'm only posing a negative criticism here, but you did make some thoughtful points that I'll continue to consider, especially the 'likelihood when considering world history' notion.

Argument 1.1, by the second sentence has forgotten the free will that it proposed in the first. If God is all-good and has free will, and creates a being that is not God, and gives it free will, obviously this new being can turn its free will towards evil. That's the essence of free will.

For 1.3, if life were truly built on death, wouldn't life eventually drive itself into extinction? Evolution would work in reverse: new, higher organisms, requiring more energy derived from death, would cause more death. Somehow the balance has worked out, however, and life is sustained. Anyway, it may certainly seem, in ignorance, that it's odd that things must eat other things to survive; but I'm not sure that this points to a malevolent God. After all, autotrophic organisms (like plants) and heterotrophic organisms (such as ourselves) live in fairly perfect symbiosis. We can't survive without ingesting the energy that comes only from plants. This is true. But plants can't survive without the waste products of our cellular respiration. The chemical equation for photosynthesis is the mirror-reverse of the chemical equation for cellular respiration. It seems more like a complex and masterful coordination than anything sinister. What you're seriously suggesting, perhaps, is that a good God would only create photosynthesizing life forms, because you find it horrible that we must eat plants to survive. But what if plants were partly intended to be heterotrophic food? What if there's no morality attached to the death of a plant?

Your "sensible refrain", 2.3, is only correct that physical constructs in this universe our temporary; and living things being physical, they too are temporary. I don't see how this is disharmony, per se, and I don't see how this means life is incidental to the universe. I'm not even sure what you mean by that phrase, because everything in the universe is incidental to everything else. The nonliving universe no more exists to produce life than life exists to produce new arrangements of nonliving matter.

3, in general, assumes that God is hidden, which seems arguable in light of our free will and our non-omniscience. It's certainly possible that God is everywhere, to the extent that we can't find a particular object called God; or that over thousands of generations we've raised ourselves to avoid seeing it.

In 4, the oft-presented argument that God cannot choose evil, it's being forgotten that a morally perfect being, by definition, will do whatever is morally perfect; such a definition cannot tell us whether he wills this or not. For all we know, he may just continually choose never to do evil, which seems likely if evil is incompatible with his will. You may as well say that the fact that I did a particular thing is indicative of the fact that I could do nothing other than it. That's the eloquent assumptive fallacy of determinism.

Hi, thanks for playing... note that at the moment I'm spending extended periods offline due to work. I'm online until Sunday ATM.

1.1. No, the first sentance says "God has free will AND is perfectly good", by implication a "perfectly good" being does not create evil, therefore if God was good, it would create beings that were also perfectly good AND had free will.

ALSO, I do not agree that the essence of free will is only to choose between good and evil. There are millions of choices in life, and I don't agree that results of some of these choices have to be "evil" in order for choices, free will, to exist. Free will is the ability to choose between different goods just as much as it would be to "choose" good or evil. Also note that much of the time evil, suffering, is an unintended result of our actions. If "evil" was a result of free will, or tied to it, it wouldn't occur accidentally. I think it's clear that free will does not require evil, nor that evil is only a result of free will.

Natural evil, accidental evil, etc, are all big clues that free will is only another natural form of evil, piled on top of already-existing created evil. All this means that to say that god only created evil in order to sustain free will must be wrong - there is plenty of evil whether or not it's been created as a result of free will!

I've got a (hopefully) fuller set of pages on the problem of evil and failture of free will theodicy, an intro is here: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_freewill.html

God does exist and indeed he is evil!

(Anonymous)

2004-02-27 06:11 am (UTC)

God does exist and because he is more than evil he likes everyone to call him kind and loving, like the 'emperor with the new clothing', but the difference is he himself better than anyone knows he is awful and he loves the game, and at the end no ones gonna know who he is going to take to hell or heaven, after all such a God has no fear of tricking.



catch 22

(Anonymous)

2004-03-08 05:52 am (UTC)

Just buttin' in here.

Please read this to the end.

Seems we're all pretty much on the same page.

I think there's no god - never was - never will be. No further convincing needed.

But my point is; I have sort of a different view as to where all this god shit comes from in our species.

I think that all people, and most of their mind's function, was designed around everyday functioning and control within ones environment. Ex: the running deer will keep going in the direction he's going more or less and will slow down or corner within a certain ability range. And if he's coming toward me,, and I manage to get out of the way, I'll live. And if I have enough stealth and skill, I'll eat. And if I tell a joke people will laugh. bla bla bla.
Evolution has designed our minds to understand the logic/properties of our everyday environment. This, to us "is" logic.
Then, throughout the better part of evolution, there was the absolutely un-understandable (moon stars, sun, lightning etc.) and uncontrollable (death of other, etc.).
I believe that there is a part of the mind whose function it is, is to "accept". And, to somehow make peace with the rest of the mind which gets all bent out of shape when things don't go as it puts it's best effort into determining the outcome. People get angry with each other over which way the toilet paper is installed, but don't start throwing punches at the sky when a rainy day messes up big plans. They accept certain uncontrollables. This "accept" part of the mind is open to about any explanation for the unexplainables, and the topic is laid to rest. It is off limits for the logical part of the mind to continually question or be skeptical. The more consistent the story, the easier things go. Through most of evolution, extremely diverse stories (religions) didn't cross paths so much. Life was sorta blissful in that way. But the world is past those times. I turns out that the introduction of another story, is not within the means of the mind to handle well. Try as it might, the "accept" part of the mind hasn't that kind of a relationship with the logical side (particularly beyond childhood). The logical side easily catches the conflict. Turmoil is the result. There's really only a few ways to go once an alternative story is introduced, 1. crazy (snuff the messenger and all other like him) 2. ignorant (you got too much invested in your story, ain't gonna give it up now) 3. logic prevails (both stories can't be true, likely neither is, and move on).
Next, we gotta throw science into the equation. The logical side pretty much can't help but bite on something which it has the capacity to analyze as logical. Over a few generations, science has pretty much logical-ized the better share of what used to be the "accept" part's job. Pretty much every multi-god religion dried up with it. But, unfortunately, there's one thing science hasn't, and might never, be able to prove. And to add misery to that, it happens to concern perhaps the strongest instinct - that of fear and avoidance of death. Science can't explain what happens to the "you", after you die. Naturally, people eagerly eat up the first story of an afterlife. An overlooking/guiding being - engineered up by some thoughtful people, seems to have been the natural direction.
So what we've got is a world full of people being exposed to alternative stories. Most of them taking paths 1. or 2. above. And that sucks.
I don't see any way around it.
Most minds do not seem to be equipped to deal with death as final for it. Science has everything else nailed down. Everybody is exposed to more than one story. The credibility of any story is being squeezed. But people are too afraid of finality and too invested in their story to give it up.
People will kill or be killed, versus upend that relationship in their mind. You can be disowned by family or even friends whom have always respected you highly, with a single mention of anything which even slightly threatens their lie. Normally functioning minds are not willing to entertain any other lie - much less, the truth.
Where do we go from here?

You all are going to burn in hell for this stupid ass website of ya'll, and when u see the marvelous works of christ, then he shall believed in have ever lasting life.

Assuming that "believing" is good, and that seeing these marvelous works is good because it aids believing, why doesn't this all-powerful god of yours actually bother to show me?

Until your god gets round to talking to me, I'm afraid your rhetoric is unconvincing.

(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
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Puppet (Anonymous) Expand
"The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe that there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed - might grow tired of his vile sport - might have a tempoaray fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose the surgeon that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intentions are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is, the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture are necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren't. Either way, we're for it.
What do people mean when they say, 'I am not afraid of God because I know He is good'? Have they never been to the dentist?" C.S. Lewis.

I read your views with interest, but I think you've overlooked the fact that if God took away all the evil in the world He would be taking away our free will (for it is the free will of humans which causes such things). Without free will, love cannot exist. God wanted love to exist so He could have a relationship with us - otherwise we would be zombies. And you're right that an evil god rules this world - the prince of this world is Satan - and it is our sin which causes so much death. What is it inside you that means you yearn for love, happiness, stability and peace? A coincidendal mix of atoms and chemicals reactions in your brain? You recognise that life is temporary, and yes, death wins in the physical because Satan enticed the first man to sin - death and the shedding of blood is the only antonement for this - hence the death of Jesus atoning for us. That's the whole point - there's a much better life out their after this crappy one if you accept this free gift. Or you can go on living and trying in vain to be competely happy and satisfied in the percieved knowledged that this is it. "Eternity is written in the hearts of men" - that's why we yearn for something better - because there is.

"I think you've overlooked the fact that if God took away all the evil in the world He would be taking away our free will (for it is the free will of humans which causes such things). Without free will, love cannot exist."

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/heaven.html
So God, in Heaven, where there is no Free Will, has no love? If angels, the trinity, etc, exist in Heaven where there is no evil, then it means then it IS possible to have free will and yet there be no evil.

In general the "free will theodicy" (which is what you've alluded to) doesn't work, for multiple reasons, one of which is that the concept of having free will simply doesn't require "evil" and "good" to be the only element of choice.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_freewill.html

Evil god?

(Anonymous)

2004-04-14 08:00 pm (UTC)

Is God evil? No. Mankind has the monopoly on evil. It is God that is good and loves all of us. It is man that is prone to evil and irresponsible people blame God for their actions and the actions of others yet God isn't the one doing the action. I suppose to some it is a "comfort" to blame God or anyone else for what goes wrong in your life rather than the individual who REALLY is a fault.

Thank God, that I DO believe in God. He blesses me and takes care of me. With repentance He'd love to so the same for you and change your life to being happy rather than angry and miserable. Simply ask Him for forgiveness and to enter your heart then spend some time in prayer and with the Bible. In the Bible is where you will find peace, wisdom and understanding. At this website all you will find is anger, hoplessness and coldness.

(Deleted comment)

Evil god vs Good god

(Anonymous)

2004-06-20 06:13 am (UTC)

i read ur pages about an 'evil god'. me... well im not really religious, but i think logic comes into this argument a lot.. firstly we must remeber that god is just/fair, how do i know this, well, god did give us freewill didn't he? if we have freewill, this means that we can do what ever we want to; and god wont stop us. i found that your article lacked this concept of freewill. if god was evil, then y would he give us freewill? im sure that u know that gevil people klike to control; they are power hungry, but your article has been proved wrong; as god gave us freewill to believe in what ever we want to believe in. so i can now conclude that god is not evil, god is a good, and just god.

Re: Evil god vs Good god

vexen

2004-08-11 12:32 pm (UTC)

Consider this:

You say "God gave us free will"... maybe god MAKES us THINK we have free will, when really we don't.

AND... what good is free will if God also creates us with bad character traits? It is merely another way to create suffering.

i read ur arguments i think they are good. i quit believing in god a few years ago i think god does exist but as you say it is not a good god but a bad one, cuz what god is doing (acording to the bible and all that) is making people suffer and see who can make it all the way and those who can will be sent to heaven, so he thinks heaven is like some kind of prize, but if you lose then you go to hell...what happened to the forgiving all loving god???

Josue Campos
josuersd19@aol.com

uhhh...WRONG

(Anonymous)

2004-07-04 08:06 am (UTC)

Ever heard of the forbidden fruit. the one that gave us free will and conscience? Well, have you?

We betray God by sinning, and thats why there is not automatically a spot for you in heaven.

One last thing, Satan, as you should know, was a fallen angel of God, because of his wanting to be a god. Then if you follow Satan, your contradicting yourself by saying there is no God. Am I right?

Actually he claimed that if there is a God he is a malign thug, so there is no contradiction.

And when judging whether or not we have free will you should picture those children in foreign countries that are stricken with famine and a disease. Is it a path they chose? No, children are born into broken home, populations are hit by genocide, all as a result from what your God does.

If you have read the Bible yourself you should be able to tell that he is no happy camper, go ahead, read through it and see how many deaths have been caused by him. Too many for me to count. For example, the greatest of them all was the flooding of the Earth. Yes I have heard the Christian reasoning for such an atrocity. The world committed a sin. One that apparently warrented their death. So are you saying every man, women, child, baby, fetus, and animal did something so bad as to deprive themselves of life? And God did not just kill them, but he also threw them in the eternal flames of Hell. How loving.

Re: uhhh...WRONG (Anonymous) Expand

God have mercy on you

(Anonymous)

2004-07-06 11:17 pm (UTC)

I have no idea what you gain by denying your maker with such a passion. but I know he loves you all the same.
may he continue to bless you

Re: God have mercy on you

(Anonymous)

2004-09-11 06:18 am (UTC)

There is no god to love me.

Re: God have mercy on you (Anonymous) Expand
Re: God have mercy on you (Anonymous) Expand
God is real (Anonymous) Expand
Re: God have mercy on you (Anonymous) Expand

evil and suffering

(Anonymous)

2004-08-28 02:23 am (UTC)

Just thought id voice what ive recently found out ..
People say humankind is simply a result of nothing more than countless chemical and biological accidents. If true, how can we have any personal value, and why do we care if people are disposed of/die in their millions ?
Some say 'evil' things are ultimate consequences of theory that man is nothing but product of heredity and environment.. so an 'excuse' for Hitler's actions is his genes ?
In a godless universe, what one 'animal' does to another is morally irrelevant. There is no way athiests can declare such things as the Holocaust "wrong". In absolute, transcendent ethics the word 'wrong' is meaningless.
Richard Dawkins said that lives in the universe with 'no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference' - if no transcendent values, who has the right to say there should be any / what should they be ?
If we are only genetically programmed 'machines', how can we condemn anything as 'good/evil', or feel any duty to treat others with respect/dignity/justice ?
People ask 'how can there is a just God?' - where do you get words as 'just/unjust' from ? Without God of absolute justive, such words are meaningless/no word content/are matters of personal opinion.
The fact that we have a sense of right/wrong means that this instinct is 'there', and a strong clue to some transcendent standard.
The fact the existance of evil points -towards- the existance of God- not away. Rejecting God can never solve the problem of evil.
Consider the consequences of accepting the skeptic’s alternatives: Suffering proves that God does not exist, or He is not all-powerful, or He is not all-good. If God does not exist, then all of existence, including our suffering, has no enduring value, purpose, or goal. If God is not all-powerful, then we have no hope that suffering will ever be eliminated. If God is not all-good, then to pain and despair we must add the threat of immanent divine sadism. Each of these alternatives is at least as problematic as the Christian alternative, so the skeptic has merely exchanged one answer he doesn’t like for others equally unpleasant. The skeptic has not solved the problem of suffering merely by refusing to solve it.

Re: evil and suffering

vexen

2004-09-02 12:49 pm (UTC)

We care what happens to people because we are good people. Atheists can (and do) declare the holocaust to be bad because it causes the suffering of people.

Just because we are the result of chemistry (which is true, by the way, whether or not you believe a conscious God designed the chemicals that created us, or not) does not mean that we should lack morals.

We have morals, *and* we are the result of evolution.

Just because the universe is indifferent does not mean that WE should be.

There is no God... the moral argument for the existence of God was debated at length in the Rome thousands of years ago, it's a dead debate, there is no requirement for the existence of god in order to have morals.

Try some of these:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/morals.html
"god is necessary for moral behaviour" that I wrote in 1999 (it is old but makes relevant points) and:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/ethics.html
"Confused religious ethics" which contains a relevant part on how theists are inherently less moral than atheists. Atheists are moral because it is good natured, whereas theists are moral because they want a reward (heaven) and to avoid punishment (hell). Atheists do not need these extra pressures to be moral.

Theists are saying that if these things did not exist, if there was no god, they would see no reason to be moral. This is immoral behaviour: Atheists are moral for the sake of goodness, theists for their own sake!

my theory on god and satan

(Anonymous)

2004-08-29 05:19 pm (UTC)

(by the way im crap at spelling)
i have not been brought up religous and class myself very lucky not to of been brainwashed, having a open mind is great i loved my dad and love my mum for giving me this gift. I have read most religous books and i no of most theorys and like a jigsaw puzzle ive put my own theory together and would like to share it and you can think what you want.
basicly humans we geneticly engineerd by a alien race called the annunaki the ancients called them gods they created us as like a robat race mining gold for them which there planet niburu needed for its atmosphere "adam and eve, garden of eden they had no human emotion" but there was one annnaki, alien, god watever u want to call them which wanted us to be more than jus watever we were, "simular to robots" he tried to make us have knowledge and he did "the apple, eve" his name was satan well thats what we call him, anyway this pissed his fellow alien gods of they were so angry they didnt want us to have knowledge to be god like they came up with laws put the FEAR OF GOD INTO THEM i believe that when muslims bend over to pray it comes from when the gods where trying to scare us when we uprose against them and we begged for mercy at there feet. but i might be wrong anyway the laws were wrote down and this is where the bible and other holy books come from, all they were before they had other storys and things added to them were a set of laws made by the gods, they tried to brainwash us to think they were great and imortal and they created everything in the universe but really this was a way of controling us because we were and still are a pretty fucked up race, they brainwashed us to think our true creator satan was evil and they wrongly demonised him this is still with us today even though he is our true god not the god "gods" everyone else prays to, when god tell abraham to kill his son and satan tell him not to u cnt kill ur son dont listen to god, surely god sounds evil here but people say no satan represents temtation but CUMON surely hes the good one! andway thats a outline of my beleive i realise i could be wrong i respect all othere belives and thoerys because they could be right i dont waste my time praying or anything i hate religion all it does is create people like bin laden and george busha nd look what they do i think if we all listened to john lennons imagen and lived by that the world ould be a better place peace and good luck if u no how 2 get 2 the shelter 23 dec 2012 and sorry i cnt spell i went to whitley abbey comprehensive! lol

Re: my theory on god and satan

apollyon7

2004-11-23 05:24 am (UTC)

Where did the aliens come from, who created them?

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