 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: November 11th, 2003 04:08 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
I could be mistaken, but it's my belief that "true" satanists (as in those who are the root cause in what then became the domino affect to create what we see today in modern and various forms of satanism) are the Illuminati(scientists who claim to posses the 'light' of knowledge).
It's a problem in linguistics.
Lucifer means (i believe, and as you probably already know) Son of Light (or in the least something to do with the light). The name Lucifer was associated with the devil due to some unfortunate mistranslation in the
bible.
"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning."
Originally applying to Jesus but St. Jerome also applies the name Lucifer to Satan when writing his comments about Luke, 10, 18:
"I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven."
Luficer and Satan therefore became synomomous (satan/shaetan, as you probably know, meaning "opposer")
When the church became aware of the people who called themselves the Illuminati, the church then dubbed them as Satanists (opposers of the church, due to their scientific significance, and because of the coincidence of their name.)
Also, the devil displayed within the first testeament was simply a "tester of faith". He was still a servant of God whose position was merely to complicate the minds of man in order to see where their true loyalties lied. As christianithy became more evolved, however, he was being more represented as evil, mischevious, and less a servant of God. This applies also to his demons/minions.
anyway, my thoughts :-)
-- an intrigued passerby
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
From: ![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) vexen |
Date: November 11th, 2003 04:21 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
Illuminati: They'd be gnostics of some kind, but I think it's completely wrong to call them "Satanists" or even "Satanic", although they share some qualities with all sub groups. I agree with your history of "Lucifer", and have a in depth page on that very topic: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lucifer.htmlChristianity: The Christians do indeed call the Illumaniti devil worshippers (not sure they ever used the word "Satanist" though), but, they DO call EVERYONE that historically, including all "Pagans", Native Americans, Arabs, Hindus, etc, and I don't think that because some Christians view non-Christians (even atheists) as devil worshippers means that it is actually correct to call them devil worshippers! It isn't, but such was the short-sighted nature of Christianity. I agree that in the OT the Devil was clearly an agent of God, who only acted on permission of God and who asked God for permission to act before it acted. I think the literalist Christians broke this concept and formed, in the 1st/2nd century, a belief in a literal Satan. This Satan reached it's heights of strength in Medieval times when Christianity verged on dualism at times, but since Protestant Christianity has shrivelled in importance to an almost irrelevant superfluous part of normal Christianity. (Normal means: Not American style evangelical Christianity). |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: November 11th, 2003 06:18 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: initial problem
|
Atlantean? (maybe, I don't know Charles Williams)
Desiring nothing at all has got to definately be the least human... it's unimaginable. Yet, it is the Tao!
Manasses:
In popular culture horror movies and cheap films, often the evil bad guy would be one who wants to destroy what is. Once it was said that even angels, destroyed with pity for suffering Humans, set out to destroy the world. Destruction to end pain... that's more human.
But not preferable to creating, though!
But although popular culture (through horror movies) might attribute such a desire to Satanists, none of the main bodies of Satanists (LaVey, FCoS, Setian, etc) would entertain it.
wbo (sp?)
Is that Human sacrifice of the self, or of others? A Satanist might be said to self-sacrifice to the self, to give this life meaning in the face of the incomprehensibility of the meaning of life. "Indulgence!" is the keyword, a self-sacrifice at the expense of the other term LaVey used, "spiritual pipe dreams!".
Satanists are a funny bunch... and given the individualism that pervades the left hand path, there are many more schisms and divisions than within most other religions. (But as it's mostly a disorganized religion, the differences are (mostly) not destructive).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: November 11th, 2003 07:50 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: but then
|
No, without caring for truth life wouldn't be interesting. I personally just couldn't live without that ever-present doubt of what I know, and intrigue to know what things might be true! Some people look like they're crashing through life without wanting to know, just driving along on automatic. I do think it is possible to be in love with a nonbeing. I wrote about it... http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/abstract.html ("Abstract thought" as a facilitator of falling in love with nonbeings!) It's also possible to be in love with someone, but to imagine that person is completely different to how they are! It's about the same as being in love with an imaginary being. I think we can definately create imaginary loved-ones, or reverred ones, and then put love on them, and I think people do this to make themselves complete when life isn't what they want it to be. LaVey Satanists equate life, your own life, with reverence, and the point of life is to love it! So Satan is then only pseudo-imaginary, a self-admitted love of ones' own ego. Such is LaVey Satanism, not quite the love of an imagined being (as ones' own life is real...), but not quite a love of anything in particular about life. Or not really the "love" of Satan at all. If I was asked, "Do you *love* Satan" the answer would definately be no! An atheist can say he "loves life", but can't quite stretch the emotion far enough to say he "loves the universe". Pantheists might! Love is complex and if this topic continues we're going to have to get out those three greek types of love... what are they? Eros, agape and something? I don't *anyone* who claims eros love of reality... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's always so refreshing to read your essays!
I don't know, maybe I'm just getting a bad attitude toward most *religion* (the big three, anyway). I am so fucking sick and tired of feeling like I have to be kind and apologetic to Christians or believers who are more than happy to step on MY toes and shove their damn ideological crap down MY throat! I think I've been exposed to too much of it most of my life. I'm seeing that the biggest evils are really ignorance and stupidity, but I feel I'm up against both almost everywhere I go, and it's disgusting me. I almost want to move to another country!
...which then makes me feel that I'm just not tolerant enough and I need more education. ::sigh:: So then, I come and read your pages and learn something and then I don't feel quite as bad. ;) I don't know why this theological struggle is such a thorn in my side, but it has been for several years. I keep wondering when it's going to end! I'm always stuck between being highly skeptical and not believing anything, to wanting to be open-minded, to then seeing religion used as a crutch and as something that shuts off people's intellect, and I get disgusted all over again. Especially when religion is the backbone of certain wars and other social ills. I'm just not sure the *good* religion does outweighs the *bad.* Sometimes I agree with what Mao Tse-Tung said, "Religion is poison." And I'm surrounded by it, and then all I can say in my exasperation is (pardon me, but) FUUUUUUUCK.
Oh, but I guess I should just go read the article now. ;)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: November 11th, 2003 06:03 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
I can empathize... I do exactly the same things sometimes... I come home literally seething with confused aggression at how people can be so stupid, short-sighted and ignorant in ther lives. And then I also sit and think that maybe it's me being intolerant! It's not just the religions... where religion lacks, football follows... you know about UK's terrible reputation of football hooligans? Well it's true. There's no escaping the poor quality of the human masses, and they'll find banners to display, the untermenschen are the same whether they're religious bigots or pub-culture slobs. It's a horrifying thought that I still don't accept.. but we'll be surrounded by this forever, no matter where we go. If you move, you'll find a refreshing lack of religious bigotry. But you'll find a terrifying increase in other causes of bigotry. It's a universal constant! People have crutches, religious ones or not, and I have no idea if the masses get better or worse without them... except that many individuals don't haul themselves out of the gutter until they've dropped these crutches. Most people don't even know they can walk without them! Maybe they can't. Religion is posion, it brings out the worst in people! Choose a football team... choose a religion... they find anything to hold up as their rosaries... church attendance or football attendance! Patriotism! So... long life misanthropia, and onwards with the lifelong search for good people! (Oh (I think this parenthesis is going to be a long one, be warned), our self-searching "maybe it's ME that's wrong" is probably one of the biggest signs that in life we're thinking about things more correctly than all the ones who evidently don't think that! People don't analyse themselves and try to find what's wrong, they dull search insecurities with matcho behavior (I spell that word without a "u"... damn USA cultural imperialism! (Well actually I do prefer that spelling anyway, like color!)). Mind-dumbing TV and life-dulling beer are probably most peoples cures to doubts over the worth of their lives. The whole human species needs a detox! Anton LaVey writes that as the TV has replaced the Church as the provider of the status-quo, the subduer of people who might otherwise start to think, and that the first thing a Satanist should do is "remove oneself from the firing line!". (Of course 'normal' people (the rare ones) can watch TV fine without turning into a zombie). Erm... what was I writing... erm... *tries to turn off rant mode* Ah yes: ) Ignorance and stupidity are the biggest evils. But don't underestimate the role of additives in dumbing down our vital body/mind health! It's not going to end... this is it... humanity... forever. And on that positive note :p here's a random link, just to show that even the worst people sometimes fight for good causes!: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,8224,742456,00.html |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: November 11th, 2003 08:45 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
Oh I didn't get what you meant with the "u", no we'd never spell it matchou!
Most English will randomly use "s" or "z" on many words. I think that I nearly always spell "realize" with a z as you do.
Can you give an example of the "r" sound? Like what word or name? Like "Rose"... wouldn't ever have an "r" sound at the end...
I remember some beautiful moments when an American girl who I loved would sometimes get English things wrong, the "little differences" are sometimes awkward, always confusing, and sometimes adorable when people get them wrong!
You'd never guess, for example, how you pronounce the place called "Gloucester", or "Leicester". It's ridiculous, sometimes, is language!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: November 11th, 2003 09:02 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
Oh right, in comparison "Data" sounds funny the American way, like the first "a" should be a double-a, "daata" and the second a needs to be an a with a dot on top or something, to denote a quick ending!
In English, perhaps it's "dayter", in American maybe it's "daata!"
Is New Zealand "Xena" same as British, "zee-naa", and is USA American "zen - a!"? Maybe.
This is a difficult conversation to do in text...
"Schedule" might be more phonetic the English way, but English and American aren't phonetic languages. Russian is! So "shed-yule" is more correct in American, and "sked-yule" is more correct in English, but both languages are nonetheless close enough for most differences to be negligable. I think. Most the time!
Except with "pants"... but that's funny rather than important!
(When Americans say "pants" we say "trousers", and when we say "pants" we mean underwear. The misunderstandings on this one are often amusing. Say to an English person, "I'm just off to change my pants for tonight" and they'll definately raise an eyebrow!...)
Gloucester, which looks like a fearsome 3-syllable word, is actually bludgeoned to:
"gloster"
And likewise Leicester is not "lie, cess, terr", it is:
"lester"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You're right. If it's not religion, it's something else. There's a medical talk show on one of the local radio stations in which the doctor/host has discussed this issue of ADDICTION. We humans have needs, we are largely addiction-prone and it is usually our cells craving something they lack, but other times it may be our brains that are searching for something... some kind of chemical balance, connection, or meaning, or fulfillment.
No, I haven't heard of the UK football hooligans! (Is that what we call soccer over here?)
Yeah, I know I'll find this stuff everywhere, which is why I *almost* want to move at times. I realize it'll probably just go from one set of problems to another. :\ (It sucks to be a somewhat idealistic perfectionist.)
I suppose some people do need crutches or else they'll fall over if they attempt ambulation under their own strength.
I'd rather hold MYSELF up as my rosary. ;) Heh heh... (half-kidding)
This constant questioning whether I'm the one who needs to think about things feels like a blessing and a curse, if you will. I'm glad it prompts me to ask questions, but damn, what a pain in the ass it is. ;) Lifelong search for good people is definitely a part of it!
I try to watch TV with a critical eye, while knowing when to just enjoy, say, a movie. Many TV shows I see are on the Science channel or PBS, so there's no real dumbing-down there, and the entertainment I try to keep in mind is just that--entertainment only. Beer? Nah, I don't drink; or, rarely. My body doesn't seem to like it and I'd rather hang onto my liver and brain cells, thank you very much! Actually, sometimes I do exercise while watching TV. That's one way to keep it fairly healthy. :)
You are definitely right on about the health & detox! For such a medically advanced country, we sure are going down the TUBES with our health and fat levels! The chemicals are very bothersome to me. I think I'm one of the human *canary in a coal mine* types. My body reacts to whatever we really shouldn't be exposed to in the first place. The EPA should use me as a warning system! *L*
Humanity. Bleah. It's a love/hate thing with me. :)
I think I heard about that Bush article on the War on Fat. Yes, one good thing he's done! You probably wouldn't believe how many obese people there are here in the land of Baywatch. ;) People are also under-hydrated, overworked, under-rested, and ridiculously stressed out.
Thanks, vexen. :)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We met a young German couple last year on vacation. They were camping next to us at Big Sur. We got to talking and one thing they said was they expected to come over to California and see a lot of tanned, svelte, athletic-looking bodies, but what did they find? A lot of fat, F A T people. Needless to say, they were very surprised.
I've read the UK and Russia are almost on par with the US in the obesity department. Food is abundant, way too many fast foods and junk foods at the grocery store, people are busy with little time to cook, and not many are interested in exercise. So this is what we end up with. I wrote a paper on this for a college nutrition course back in '88 and got an A+, on the paper and an A in the class. Most people know very little about nutrition besides what they hear on the TV news; it's amazing. Thing is, nutrition and weight control are relatively new areas of serious study and fertile grounds for research!
As my pet male would say, "put away the bon-bons and get off your ASSES." ;) ....I'm so glad I love working out. Sometimes I'm tempted to post a pic of myself in my undies or a bikini just to point out, "see, not all 40+ Americans are obese!!!!! Some of us try to take good care of ourselves!"
Oh, yeah, and the thinking. Actually, one thing that's so good about exercising is it gives my brain a rest! Sleep, sex, and exercise. :)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Speaking of sleep, shouldn't you be in bed by now??
Australia too?? Oh, good grief.
There's so much to learn about nutrition. I used to be better about it but these days I've been concentrating more on the medical side of certain conditions, and how foods & chemicals relate to them.
Pet male. Yes, I think *hubby* would like that. :) We don't have kids, so in a way we're a family of our own, cat and all. :Þ We all purr when content and love having our bodies petted and fur (hair) stroked. :) And we kinda romp and play like cats do at times--minus the claws! OH, and I know you don't watch TV, but on a show called C.S.I. they featured a Furry convention, although I only caught about the last 15 minutes of the episode. Except, it looked like the people wore costumes rather than just accessories or face paint. I thought you might be interested to know that one of your subcultures has made it to national U.S. television! :)
I sure try to keep fit. Jeez, sometimes it's not easy though, having to work around certain *problems,* grrrr. I'd like to lose about 10 pounds, and I know I'll get there. I got lazy around vacation and didn't really recover 'til about two months ago. :) I used to teach aerobic dance, and that's when I was in my best shape. Well, those days are gone but I still do low-impact aerobics, fitness walking (when weather permits), a little yoga and Pilates, and some bellydance. I used to do cycling and swimming, too, but it got a little uncomfortable for my sensitive *ahem* area. (Can't tolerate chlorine anymore.)
I try to make sure I use music that really gets me going, and that's one way I can shut off my brain. Trance-like music for walking keeps me going but puts me in a semi-meditation state, and other appropriate music for the aerobics, etc., helps keep me geared toward that pace and keep my mind on what I'm doing rather than thinking about what I will be doing later! And I pump up the volume and turn up the bass. The neighbors STILL can't hear it, so I guess our house is very well-insulated.
:)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: November 11th, 2003 08:53 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
I know of the C.S.I. episode, it was an absolutely terrifyingly bad coverage of furry, one of the worst, it concentrated entirely of fursuit sex, I think, yet claimed to be a documentary about "furry". It's generated quite a lot of confused hate mail towards furries even in this country, as ignorant people were grossed-out by an ignorant program.
Furry has only been covered "ok" once or twice, mostly it's been really poor fetish-style coverage. I was in one of the good ones, a few years ago, it got a re-run on British TV recently but I don't think it's ever crossed the Atlantic!
You're such a fighter! Most people with any problems seem to want the whole world to suffer too!
USA has good house insulation (noise, at least) that is much better than here. Our (masses of) cheap housing is terrible! But then again, I bet there's areas that are just as bad and good comparison would be a statistical nightmare...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oh. It figures. I thought it seemed strange that people were dressed in all-over, heavy costumes, one of them like a rat or something! Well, the TV coverage on something that greatly concerns me has been pretty bad too, for the most part. The media's not too good at doing their homework and asking the people in-the-know about some of their topics!
Anything non-mainstream is usually treated with disdain or at least, suspicion. Mainstream media is looking for RATINGS, not accurate information... unfortunately.
Yes, I'm a fighter. I wouldn't be doing nearly as well as I am by now were I not! But no, I don't want the world to suffer. There were times I felt very angry and cheated, but I knew it was no one else's "fault," although I still blamed the medical circles for not studying vulvodynia sooner, and more seriously. It got put on the back-burner in the 1930's due to WWII and then didn't get picked up again 'til about 1980! So, that was 50 YEARS lost. Sometimes it still pisses me off. But, I figure I probably won't be in pain forever; or at least, I sure hope not. I'm a lot better than I was in the past, except for some flare-ups that probably could've been avoided. If the rest of the world were suffering, then nobody would be able to do any good and if I were all better, it would severely suck. ;)
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: July 8th, 2006 07:52 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Lucifer - or- Satan???
|
I have not done much indepth studying on this subject, although I have always been interested in other points of view, other faiths than the one I have been raised in, etc. My parents never felt threatened by those who "think outside the box", in fact, they encouraged it. This, I'm sure, may be considered a stupid question, and is I'm sure, very basic. Here goes - What is the difference between Satan and Lucifer? One source I ran into said that there was a technical difference but never elaborated. Could someone help me out? I'd like to have the correct information. I'll check back in a few days. Thanks a lot, Merri B.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Previous
happy