 |
|
 |


 |
 |
|

 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
From: vexen |
Date: January 23rd, 2002 05:42 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
I agree and believe completely that good and evil are inseperable, I do not have any dualistic beliefs.
For the argument above, one of rebuttals of the "Free Will Defence Theodicy", thinking non-dualistically it works like this:
All actions cause amounts of good and evil. God, however, only causes pure goodness. And then read the rest of the argument as per normal, however comments like "choose good and not evil" should be read as "perform acts that do cause no evil effects in addition to evil ones".
Is that clear? I need to practice in making it a clear argument, I'm used to debating with people who take all the terminology for granted.
Kyla: "i personally believe is that "god" had to give us free will in order for us to learn. after all what are we here for on this earth if it isn't to learn?"
I believe we can learn and develop without free will. Our brains and character can learn from our mistakes and progress and mature as part of a natural, determined cycle; learning (in itself) can exist without free will.
I agree completely that we learn equally from bad and good, that learning is more a result of nature (containing bad and good), than of purely "good".
Kyla, logical arguments never do much to alter a person's belief (I think experience is most important for that), so feel free to argue/debate/discuss as much as you can, I think it's good for people :-)
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|

 |
|

 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
From: vexen |
Date: January 23rd, 2002 11:42 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: in simple words...
|
"you are saying god is immoral because he gave us free will? because he created evil? because he let's bad things happen? there cannot be good without evil right?" It is possible to have free will without the existence of evil. For example, in Heaven, there is no suffering, but there is free will? Why didn't God make the Earth like this too? Likewise, Heaven is a place that exists where Good exists without Evil. So, if you believe in Heaven, I think you believe in a place where Good exists without Evil. Why can't there be good without evil? Why didn't God create the universe without any evil in it? If he is the creator, and good natured, he didn't need to create it. The only answer must be... that he doesn't exist, or is not moral. "do we not give our own children the free will to choose, to make their own choices, to shape who they are? do we give this to them because we are "evil" or because we want them to discover who they are through the good and the bad?free will gave US the choice. we are human, not robots. we learn." Atheists believe in free will, I think free will is a function of nature, and God isn't "required" in order for free will to exist. Actually, I think the existence of God _denies_ us free will. With children, if I created a home for them, I would not create it with "evil" in, if I could at all help it. I would make it so that all their learning, development, free will and maturing is done in a purely safe home, with lots of toys, choices and events, but not without evil. Natural evilThe suffering as a result of natural disasters, volcanoes, etc... are these the results of our free will, or can we choose to stop them? I think evil occurs all the time, affecting us, and it's not always due to our own choices. When children and the young are hurt, injured and killed in these large scale disasters, is God really punishing them? Or is God immoral (or doesn't exist?).
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|

 |
|

 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
From: vexen |
Date: January 25th, 2002 04:22 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: in simple words...
|
"We would be smarter than that and "evil" choices wouldn't even be an issue"
Isn't being smarter a good way to learn? Why doesn't god make us smart like that, right now, all over the world? It would erradicate evil and injustice, pain and suffering. It would cost god nothing, we would still have free will (as in heaven), we would still learn and develop as human beings. My conclusion is that god cant (is not, therefore, all-powerful), or wont (and is immoral).
"BUt some choose "hell""
I think, once we are in this enlightened state, some may still choose hell and then, so be it, God cannot "force" anyone. So, given that hell is so terrible, and these people are going to suffer, why does God allow them to be born in the first place? To watch them make all the wrong choices? Why does he let this cycle continue, when he could stop it?
*smiles*
By the way, I like debating and arguing; you seem natural at it (you hold your ground!), I debate a lot with my friends; my sometimes harsh arguing style is not a signal of dislike or hate... I just want to tell you that I don't dislike you simply because I argue :-)
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|

 |
|

 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
From: vexen |
Date: January 27th, 2002 07:30 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: in simple words...
|
Kyla: "if we die and there is indeed a "god" would you choose heaven or hell?" "I suspect that it is logically impossible for Heaven to exist and for God to be moral. Without being entirely sure, how can you accept to move into a being's personal dimension? You do not know in advance what is going to happen to you. You do not know if you will have free will, a conscience, a personality. There is no suffering in heaven (it is assumed), no unhappiness... so the loved ones you lost in your life and those who you care about; you will continue to care but you wont be able to feel unhappy about what happens to them! It seems inhumane to have our negative emotions taken away, it seems fascist. I do not know that I want an eternity in a blissful state. I prefer life, as it is now, with moral choices, dilemmas, struggles and self development. I never want to reach my eschatological self. AbstainThe only safe option is to abstain from Heaven. To not choose to go there but also, not to choose anything else either. Don't choose Heaven or Hell, as we do not know what is in store for us. Hopefully the result of abstinence is to remain in Limbo, to keep your feelings, doubts and flawed character exactly as they are. "Taken from my essay: www.vexen.co.uk/religion/GodIsDangerous.html
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|

 |
|

 |
|

 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: February 24th, 2006 08:09 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: in simple words...
|
How crazy is this? (in more than one sense)
It's been four years since I've been on live journal and this pops up. Very strange.
Jerry,
a. Supposedly there is just one creator. One God. So by this "logic" yes, God created everything because He is the one and only creator, and that means...get ready for this... He created evil. You can't create light without creating dark my friend.
b.Why, oh why, would anyone worship a God who has selfish intentions? To "create children to love him truly" seems extremely self centered. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I have higher expectations in "God".
c.People who blindly follow what the Bible says (in all it's many flaws) scare me....even more than "satan". Question, think, explore, learn, embrace everything that involves an evolution of the mind. Otherwise you are missing the beauty of being human and thinking for yourself. If there is truly a "God" than he created you with the ability to do so, so live up to that potential and think for yourself!
Peace be with you. -K
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|

|  |
 |

 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
From: vexen |
Date: January 26th, 2002 01:59 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
|  |
 |

|