From: kyla_elise	Date: January 22nd, 2002 01:21 pm (UTC)		(Link)

	From: vexen	Date: January 23rd, 2002 05:42 am (UTC)		(Link)

I agree and believe completely that good and evil are inseperable, I do not have any dualistic beliefs.

For the argument above, one of rebuttals of the "Free Will Defence Theodicy", thinking non-dualistically it works like this:

All actions cause amounts of good and evil. God, however, only causes pure goodness. And then read the rest of the argument as per normal, however comments like "choose good and not evil" should be read as "perform acts that do cause no evil effects in addition to evil ones".

Is that clear? I need to practice in making it a clear argument, I'm used to debating with people who take all the terminology for granted.

Kyla:
"i personally believe is that "god" had to give us free will in order for us to learn. after all what are we here for on this earth if it isn't to learn?"

I believe we can learn and develop without free will. Our brains and character can learn from our mistakes and progress and mature as part of a natural, determined cycle; learning (in itself) can exist without free will.

I agree completely that we learn equally from bad and good, that learning is more a result of nature (containing bad and good), than of purely "good".

Kyla, logical arguments never do much to alter a person's belief (I think experience is most important for that), so feel free to argue/debate/discuss as much as you can, I think it's good for people :-)

From: kyla_elise	Date: January 23rd, 2002 03:16 pm (UTC)		(Link)
in simple words...

	From: vexen	Date: January 23rd, 2002 11:42 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: in simple words...

"you are saying god is immoral because he gave us free will? because he created evil? because he let's bad things happen?

there cannot be good without evil right?"

It is possible to have free will without the existence of evil. For example, in Heaven, there is no suffering, but there is free will? Why didn't God make the Earth like this too? Likewise, Heaven is a place that exists where Good exists without Evil. So, if you believe in Heaven, I think you believe in a place where Good exists without Evil.

Why can't there be good without evil? Why didn't God create the universe without any evil in it? If he is the creator, and good natured, he didn't need to create it. The only answer must be... that he doesn't exist, or is not moral.

"do we not give our own children the free will to choose, to make their own choices, to shape who they are? do we give this to them because we are "evil" or because we want them to discover who they are through the good and the bad?free will gave US the choice. we are human, not robots. we learn."

Atheists believe in free will, I think free will is a function of nature, and God isn't "required" in order for free will to exist. Actually, I think the existence of God _denies_ us free will.

With children, if I created a home for them, I would not create it with "evil" in, if I could at all help it. I would make it so that all their learning, development, free will and maturing is done in a purely safe home, with lots of toys, choices and events, but not without evil.

Natural evil
The suffering as a result of natural disasters, volcanoes, etc... are these the results of our free will, or can we choose to stop them? I think evil occurs all the time, affecting us, and it's not always due to our own choices. When children and the young are hurt, injured and killed in these large scale disasters, is God really punishing them? Or is God immoral (or doesn't exist?).

From: kyla_elise	Date: January 25th, 2002 12:29 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: in simple words...

	From: vexen	Date: January 25th, 2002 04:22 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: in simple words...

"We would be smarter than that and "evil" choices wouldn't even be an issue"

Isn't being smarter a good way to learn? Why doesn't god make us smart like that, right now, all over the world? It would erradicate evil and injustice, pain and suffering. It would cost god nothing, we would still have free will (as in heaven), we would still learn and develop as human beings. My conclusion is that god cant (is not, therefore, all-powerful), or wont (and is immoral).

"BUt some choose "hell""

I think, once we are in this enlightened state, some may still choose hell and then, so be it, God cannot "force" anyone. So, given that hell is so terrible, and these people are going to suffer, why does God allow them to be born in the first place? To watch them make all the wrong choices? Why does he let this cycle continue, when he could stop it?

*smiles*

By the way, I like debating and arguing; you seem natural at it (you hold your ground!), I debate a lot with my friends; my sometimes harsh arguing style is not a signal of dislike or hate... I just want to tell you that I don't dislike you simply because I argue :-)

From: kyla_elise	Date: January 26th, 2002 05:33 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: in simple words...

"So, given that hell is so terrible, and these people are going to suffer"

hell can only be defined for me in this way. seperated from god. is it a place? i don't know. a space maybe. with flames? i don't think so but again i don't know. is there suffering? i would believe yes. i believe some people who have rejected "god" and are stuck in their human cycles.. the ones completely lost and bent on self destruction continue their own personal hell in hell. if that makes sense.

just curious but so why do you think we are here on earth? if we die and there is indeed a "god" would you choose heaven or hell?

again i totally respect you and what you believe. =) we are two people who passionately believe. ditto on your last statement.

	From: vexen	Date: January 27th, 2002 07:30 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: in simple words...

Kyla: "if we die and there is indeed a "god" would you choose heaven or hell?"

"
I suspect that it is logically impossible for Heaven to exist and for God to be moral. Without being entirely sure, how can you accept to move into a being's personal dimension? You do not know in advance what is going to happen to you.

You do not know if you will have free will, a conscience, a personality. There is no suffering in heaven (it is assumed), no unhappiness... so the loved ones you lost in your life and those who you care about; you will continue to care but you wont be able to feel unhappy about what happens to them! It seems inhumane to have our negative emotions taken away, it seems fascist.

I do not know that I want an eternity in a blissful state. I prefer life, as it is now, with moral choices, dilemmas, struggles and self development. I never want to reach my eschatological self.

Abstain
The only safe option is to abstain from Heaven. To not choose to go there but also, not to choose anything else either. Don't choose Heaven or Hell, as we do not know what is in store for us. Hopefully the result of abstinence is to remain in Limbo, to keep your feelings, doubts and flawed character exactly as they are.
"

Taken from my essay: www.vexen.co.uk/religion/GodIsDangerous.html

	From: vexen	Date: January 27th, 2002 07:32 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: in simple words...

Isn't heaven pure good, a place free of suffering, pain, angst, misery
and evil?

Then of course I would want to go there. If such a place exists I want to go there.

But... unless I am sure what, exactly, it is and why I think it is a good place, I am cautious.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 22nd, 2006 06:11 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: in simple words...

God did not create evil...and He did give man free will. Why? Because God created man and the angels for His pleasure and wished only that they love him freely. Freely. God could have created beings that automatically 'loved' Him - but that would not be real love. In order for Gods created children to be able to love him truly - they must have the free ability to choose. Some chose/choose evil. So be it, but those are not of Gods doing and He will soon put an end to all evil. Satan was once a good angel. A Great angel - God created Satan of a most perfect mold [but there's that free will thing...] and Satan became filled with pride and self importance - he wanted the seat of Christ and that's how this all came about... It's all in the Book. It's a Good Book. The Bible. Jerry@yeswedeliver.org

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 24th, 2006 08:09 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: in simple words...

How crazy is this? (in more than one sense)

It's been four years since I've been on live journal and this pops up. Very strange.

Jerry,

a. Supposedly there is just one creator. One God. So by this "logic" yes, God created everything because He is the one and only creator, and that means...get ready for this... He created evil. You can't create light without creating dark my friend.

b.Why, oh why, would anyone worship a God who has selfish intentions? To "create children to love him truly" seems extremely self centered. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I have higher expectations in "God".

c.People who blindly follow what the Bible says (in all it's many flaws) scare me....even more than "satan". Question, think, explore, learn, embrace everything that involves an evolution of the mind. Otherwise you are missing the beauty of being human and thinking for yourself. If there is truly a "God" than he created you with the ability to do so, so live up to that potential and think for yourself!

Peace be with you.
-K

	From: fionacat	Date: January 22nd, 2002 04:45 pm (UTC)		(Link)

In response to this I quote from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman as it's 12:41 and I don't do this kinda counterthing very well at any time, I just suck.

Lucifer: "People say the devil made me do it, well they lie, I never made anyone do anything, I didn't appear in a flash of light and demand tribune, I didn't whisper whilst they inncocently slept trying to corrupt them."

It's probably just the brain cells melting into sleep but your arguement seems to do a neat little loop in the middle there so that no matter what the original propsition was it will come out the way you want it.

Or something.

I go away now.

*huggle*

	From: vexen	Date: January 23rd, 2002 05:45 am (UTC)		(Link)

Form criticism
"Lucifer" as a character in the Bible is mostly a mistranslation, the "morning star" and similar comments were sometimes directed at Jesus (as a light bearer), it was only later on that the confusion arose between "Lucifer" and "The Devil".
Read my "History of Lucifer" essay!! :-)

Aside from that, and substituing "Devil" for "Lucifer", I completely agree with that quote.

	From: vexen	Date: January 26th, 2002 01:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)

You forgot to link the essay, didn't you, Vexen? Yes...

www.dpjs.co.uk/lucifer.html

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 26th, 2002 10:51 am (UTC)		(Link)

Your arguments are incredulous! You assume free will is some great thing that defines a being as good or evil. Satan taught us free will and doomed us!

	From: vexen	Date: December 26th, 2002 11:06 am (UTC)		(Link)

We cannot assign absolute moral values to a being that has no free will, because they have no choice. For example, a computer, a robot, and someone who has their decision forced is not held responsible for what they chose.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 20th, 2003 07:14 am (UTC)		(Link)

God gave his angels a choice whether to follow him or not,just as man has a choice.

From: pacsundawl19

Date: September 4th, 2003 01:14