From: tejun	Date: April 15th, 2005 09:12 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Prayer

I am a bit of a fantasy buff, Dragon Lance so on and crap, but it is amazing when you read the formal prayers of the religious that are written down, especially in the Catholic faith, but also in the rest. Spell casting in the fantasy realm usually involves the wizard or whatever, trying to gain the favor of a certain God, the spells seem to always begin with comments and praise and slowly they transition into some type of request for alliagence and then finally comes the specific request...

Read some prayers, especially the ones written on the backs of candles, that are sold to the religious... it is nothing but spell casting...
Tejun

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 25th, 2005 08:57 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Prayer

See, if you really knew God, His true desire is an intimate and personal relationship with all of us. Prayer is a form of intimate communication with Him. TRUE Christians are not to pray for selfish things (new Cadillac, lots of money, etc.) We are to pray for Godly things and things of true need. Also, He just wants us to talk to Him. He likes that. He encourages us to pray to Him, as He does like to bless us. Sometimes the answer is yes (if it is good for His plan for us). Sometimes the answer is no (not good for us). He knows all, and, therefore, knows best! Sometimes the answer is yes, but not in the way we might have wanted it. Above all, we are to pray for a more intimate relationship with Him. So, your "definition/warning" about prayer is foolish. And, as God's word states, His (God's) ways are foolish to unbelievers. You just proved that point. Again, God's Word is 100% correct! So, to all of you out there reading this ... do not look to men for answers ... look to God! He has your best interest in mind ... Believe me! I've experienced God's will, love, advise & discipline in my life. And ... it was better than any "person" on this earth ever gave me! The results, etc. were beyond human comprehension. Turn your life over to Jesus ... you will NEVER be sorry! :>

From: vampire_logos	Date: June 8th, 2005 05:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Prayer

[[See, if you really knew God...]]


If I really knew ‘god’ he would exist. (Epistemology joke).



[[His true desire is an intimate and personal relationship with all of us.]]

Are you a prophet now? You presume to speak for ‘god’ and can tell us what his “desires” are?

Can’t it tell me this itself?

‘god’ would not need you to pray for it to communicate with you. You would not need to pray for an existing omniscient ‘god’ to know all you could relate anyway. Therefore prayer is not REALLY for communication, is it?



[[Prayer is a form of intimate communication with Him.]]


Ah...now I’m a prophet. See my dialogue above.




[[TRUE Christians are not to pray for selfish things (new Cadillac, lots of money, etc.) We are to pray for Godly things and things of true need.]]



I think you’re missing the point. You are not praying for ‘god’s’ sake. You are praying to fulfill your own needs and desires. Theoretically, ‘god’ does not want.



[[Also, He just wants us to talk to Him. He likes that.]]


Does he? How does he feel about your mind-reading skills? Yahweh told us not to suffer a witch to live. Should we be wondering about you?


[[He encourages us to pray to Him, as He does like to bless us.]]


No, in the case of the bible, illogical sheep herders and tribal war lords passed down oral tradition that was eventually written down as hearsay testimony (i.e. testament) about what THEY presumed ‘god’ wants. How reliable is their testimony? A book cannot be both testimony (testament) AND the “word of ‘god’”. If ‘god’ possessed Bob and wrote the Book of Bob, then this would not be the testimony of Bob. Either the bible is the word of ‘god’ or it is testament. It cannot be both. Is the bible not testament?


[[Sometimes the answer is yes (if it is good for His plan for us). Sometimes the answer is no (not good for us). He knows all, and, therefore, knows best! Sometimes the answer is yes, but not in the way we might have wanted it. Above all, we are to pray for a more intimate relationship with Him. So, your "definition/warning" about prayer is foolish.]]


I respectfully disagree.

What would be foolish is to pray to a ‘god’ that already knows everything, including what is “written in your heart”. If you REALLY didn’t want ‘god’ to change what IT wanted to do rather than what you want it to do, then you would simply wait for it to do what it is going to do anyway (when it already knows what is in your heart). You pray because you want a favor. You want ‘god’ to stop running the universe long enough to help you find your missing cat. That’s a form of arrogance IMO.



[[And, as God's word states, His (God's) ways are foolish to unbelievers.]]


It’s been said that wearing ball caps makes men bald. (Or is it that balding men wear ball caps more often?)

Is it that ‘god’s’ ways are foolish to unbelievers or is it that nonbelievers find such claims foolish?




[[You just proved that point. Again,]]


No, your statement is meaningless. The ways of Jabberwocky cannot be known to you, and you don’t know what I’m talking about, therefore you prove Jabberwocky true!!!

If ‘x’, then ‘x’, therefore ‘x’!!


[[God's Word is 100% correct!]]

If you are referring to the bible, then you are wrong. Consider the ascension. All of the synoptic gospels disagree with one another, as does John, and Paul disagrees with all the above mentioned. Truth must be consistent and non-contradictory, therefore the bible is not true.


[[So, to all of you out there reading this ... do not look to men for answers ... look to God!]]


‘X’ is not an answer, it is a variable with an unknown value.

[[He has your best interest in mind ... Believe me!]]


“Believe (you)”, this is what it all boils down to isn’t’ it?


That which requires faith cannot offer support for its own claims. If it could, it wouldn’t require faith.

“Have faith in my belief” is another way of saying “have perfect belief in what I believe?”


Why should I do this?

The Vampire
LOGOS

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 21st, 2005 06:00 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Prayer

I don't ask God for favors, etc. I ask that His will be done in my life and those I love. How is that selfish? You don't know what you are talking about re the Bible. I can't explain it to you because you DON'T BELIEVE. I pray that you do ... then you will have all your questions answered. It's just that simple.

From: vampire_logos	Date: June 23rd, 2005 07:19 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Prayer

[[I don't ask God for favors, etc. I ask that His will be done in my life and those I love.]]

Why wouldn't his "will be done" anyway without you asking for it? Is he omni-benevolent or isn't he?


[[How is that selfish?]]


For reason's I've already outlined. Praying to 'god' cannot be for communion (communication) because you and he already have a "hotline" if he "knows what is in your heart" and mind and is omniscient, and if he's omni-benevolent then there is nothing to ask him to do because he's going to do the ultimate good anyway, right?

So then, to pray must be to request a personal wish that IS NOT the best all-around benevolent plan for everyone. That would be "selfish" and a relative evil.

[["You don't know what you are talking about re the Bible."]]


I'm not claiming that the bible says that praying is evil. I'm taking (and so has vexen) a few attributed characteristics of biblical Yahweh, aka 'god', and applying logic to them. The extent that the consequence differs from Judeo/Christian dogma is how far the dogma strays from logic and reason. Does faith need to be reasonable? No. It doesn't, but I think it's noteworthy to point out how unreasonable it can be.


[["I can't explain it to you because you DON'T BELIEVE."]]


That sounds like Saint Paul's idea of the "regenerate mind" and that nonbelievers are "depraved".


How does belief affect objective existence? How would me possessing personal bias toward believing a point help me see the actual truth of a statement rather than a biased understanding of it?

I don't ask the two questions above as much for argumentative purposes as much as to give you something to ponder and meditate over. Would you do that for me please?

:-)



[["I pray that you do ... then you will have all your questions answered. It's just that simple."]]


Thanks for your prayers, because I understand that in theist-speak, that means you are wishing me well. However my questions ARE answered to my satisfaction.

It's just that simple.

:-)

Thanks for writing.

The Vampire
LOGOS

From: (Anonymous)	Date: October 1st, 2007 11:33 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Prayer

Your truly a humorous guy. I think you have a little mind that thinks it is a big mind!
I am not much of a Christian and most of them would not claim me but the atheists would not take me in either for sure. I say that to say I am not really defending anything here.
Just got amused at a little guy jumping up and down raging and roaring. Lies, contradictions, on and on. Everything is just made up. Lies and lies and more lies.
A little example. The ascension, you say all the writers told a different lie. That is like saying two newspapers that reported an event and their facts did not appear to agree were all liars. Even the hardest skeptics in the most prestigious halls of academia would tell you that you confuse aspects with lies.
That is just a tiny example of how you are trying to deal with very complex situations with very oversimplified solutions. Make it happen, just jump up and down, try and be witty, call yourself a vampire and that will just make it happen.
Humorous. As are admittedly many of the Christian replies. You don’t know the first thing about thinking with true objectivity, you just think you do and that is so dangerous to all. Most so called Christians have little idea why they believe what they believe, they just got it way back there from Mom and Dad. Little clones. But you guys are just as “clonish”! Got your ideas from some nut on campus or something equally as stupid, it sounded good and now you are an apostle setting the world right! The biggest part of you from both sides have never really stepped outside your bias to examime the other side with fairness. I am talking about what is relevant to “is there a God or is there not a God.” The Satanism deal, I admit I could not even try and give that a fair shake! There are just some things with such LITTLE credibility! Sorry. Kind of humorous however….
All well, little minds that think they can really think. It’s all a shame! Oh start jumping up and down now…. There you go. That proves it… By God that proves it….. I’ll sharpen my wit say cleaver little things and dust my hands………on and on and on and on you goooooooooo.
Wishywashy@aol.com Truly!

From: vampire_logos	Date: June 8th, 2005 04:32 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Your critique of prayer

[[5. Conclusion
God knows everything - everything we say in prayer, God already knows. The point of praying is definitely not to reveal things to an all-knowing God. God acts only when God knows it is good to act, the wishes of prayer can only ever be against God's will, as I have elaborated on above. So, when prayer works, how does it work? If prayer works, then it is either coincidence (you've prayed for something that was going to happen anyway) or, you knew what was best better than God did, and God intervened!. The latter is impossible. Magic, or prayers, when they are effective, must be against God's will. If you ask a Christian or a Muslim, what will they say is the magical force that acts against God's will? Satan's will. If a supernatural affect such as prayer goes against God's will, then it is Satanic. As such, prayer is either useless, or Satanic. What business, then, have theists got in praying? This is a warning to all god believers that they must be very careful of their own motives when they get together and pray for things!]]


I agree with all of your five points. Brilliantly said.

If the “will of ‘god’” is necessarily good, then prayer is necessarily evil.


The Vampire
LOGOS

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 21st, 2005 06:06 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Your critique of prayer

Where do you dream up such bullshit? And this question is from an evangelical christian ... born-again and Bible believing child of God. You people are crazy. We are not crazy ... YOU ARE. I read so much on this site and you claim we are crazy, but I say YOU ARE ALL CRAZY insane weirdos! Let's have a "see who is more crazy" debate, eh? We'll have an independent judge. If there is such a thing! You give me all the reasons you believe what you believe ... and you will have to explain what you believe! Then I'll explain what and why I believe. Then, we'll see who is really crazy! Although, I know God does not want me to defend Him, nor does He need me to. And, no, I'm not some weirdo "prophet." God just tells you so in the Bible. You people are really full of shit and have no clue. So, probably, the whole thing would be pointless. Asshole!

	From: vexen	Date: June 21st, 2005 06:33 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Your critique of prayer

I've got a better idea... prove you're not a raving, angry lunatic unable to deal with criticism, and simply state the flaw in the logic of the page?

Does God NOT know everything? Does God NOT do what is best in any situation?

Come on, give us a clue as to what the mistake is on the page!

Secondly, even if we do arrive at different conclusions to you, that doesn't make us crazy. Unless you call EVERYONE crazy because they don't believe the same things you do!

As for your challenge, that is what MY ENTIRE WEBSITE is about. So, find a page with which you disagree (many pages state my beliefs) and debate. If you just quote bible-stuff that isn't relevant I'll delete it otherwise my forums become inundated with Christian rubbish, whereas I'm trying to keep this place educational and thematic.

OK, tell me, if you're willing to play your own game, why do you pray? You've got a head-start because you've already read my arguments so you can customize your answer to avoid my criticism.

And I'll play to: I don't believe in prayer because I don't believe in magic, I don't believe in anything that I could pray *to*, and also I believe that if God did exist, there still would be no point in praying.

Game on.

From: vampire_logos	Date: June 23rd, 2005 07:54 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Your critique of prayer

It's unclear from reading your post who you are responding to, but you are in fact responding to MY post, so I'll take it as read that you wish to converse with me.


[["Where do you dream up such bullshit? And this question is from an evangelical christian ... born-again and Bible believing child of God. You people are crazy. We are not crazy ... YOU ARE."]]


"'Facts doctor...statements are not arguments".--Spock, Star Trek-the original series.


[["I read so much on this site and you claim we are crazy, but I say YOU ARE ALL CRAZY insane weirdos! Let's have a "see who is more crazy" debate, eh? We'll have an independent judge. If there is such a thing! You give me all the reasons you believe what you believe ... and you will have to explain what you believe! Then I'll explain what and why I believe. Then, we'll see who is really crazy!"]]


Insane is a legal term, not a medical one. It means to know right from wrong.

Consider Moses to tell the Pharaoh to let his people go, and then this 'god' hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would not comply with this ultimatum, AND THEN this 'god' "punished" the Pharaoh and his people because he did not comply with the ultimatum because 'god' made it impossible to do so and this punishment was comprised of slaying all the first born Egyptians including babies.

If you would like to argue that this was "moral" and "good" for Yahweh to do this, then selling the idea that you are sane (truly understand good and evil) might be a hard sell.

Good luck with that.

(If you WOULDN'T make such a claim, then we might be on more common ground).



[["Although, I know God does not want me to defend Him, nor does He need me to."]]


He does not want you to or need you to but you doing it anyway? Does this make you a rebellious sinner?

1 Samuel 15:23 "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..."

Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Should we burn you?

;-)


[["And, no, I'm not some weirdo "prophet." God just tells you so in the Bible."]]


Does 'god' lie?


[["You people are really full of shit and have no clue. So, probably, the whole thing would be pointless."]]

I use reason and logic and it seems that vexen does the same. How about you?


[["Asshole!"]]


No, I'm a dick. Dicks question the status quo and think for themselves. They know that they should have self-worth and don't apologize for it.

Assholes, to draw a distinction, tend to feel threatened anytime anyone doesn't do what they authoritatively think they should do. Assholes can't laugh at themselves or "the system" that they've so entrenched and invested themselves in.

Thanks for writing.


The Vampire
LOGOS

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 24th, 2005 07:24 pm (UTC)		(Link)

When I read your opinions I honestly really feel for you. I want you to really really look at any good that's happened to you and really ask why and how that happened. Don't think it's a coincidence or don't think it's luck or you were having a good day. It's not synchronicity.

Then note any bad things that have happened to you and think on the bad things you have done in the past, it's not a coincidence or luck or synchronicity..your actions affect your life..literally....

Literally..open your eyes not just your eye lids.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 6th, 2007 04:34 am (UTC)		(Link)

I dis-like major modern religons e.g. islam christianty jewdiuism

i think they make god too abstract. Would, if he existed, be so like and unlike us? So powerful, so human like but without fault? i think god is like us, he makes mistakes he has human desires...

Personally i think greek gods are better to look to, they drink, have fun, and make mistakes.

After taking this aproach to life simple things can be related to each god



Posiden FTW!!!!!!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 2nd, 2007 08:03 am (UTC)		(Link)
praying may have a purpose in Gods purpose

Ok, I agree that there is a big problem with the grand argument of evil.
and I believe the answer to why there is evil is a combination of A and C
that god is not all powerfull and especially is not perfectly good.

God is not perfectly all powerfull because he can't make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it. or the one I said to my grandma teaching sunday school when I was just a pup, when she said God can do anything. I said "no he can't, can he make a surface so dirty that it cant be cleaned, and then a cleaning chemical that can clean any surface"

this just means that there exists certain things that the laws of the universe do not allow. And that nomatter how much power you have, you cannot do such things unless you alter the laws of the universe. But if you alter the laws of the universe that's cheating! So the laws of the universe permit impossibilities, and tell the universe what the odds are of certain things happening. like certain things have such a slim chance of happening that we just say they're impossible...but not everything has a chance of happening, and anything with 0 chance of happening actually is impossible. But what I think the bible means when it says that "with God all things are possible" is that things people say are impossible (like walking on water, changing water into wine, saving rich people from hell) are things that God can do.

And why is everybody making a stink about the God causing evil thing. OF COURSE GOD IS EVIL according to what we all consider wrong and evil. Anything that causes the human race pain suffering, or a lowered chance of survival is going to be bad or evil for us. But what is described as being evil in the bible as anything that is against the good of God, and his will. The bible says that God created the universe for the good pleasure of "his" will, not ours! It also says that God alone is good, so that means that anything that isnt God is Evil. My theory on the whole God and universe thing is that Evil is necessary to make God good. Because if everything was good, or as good as God then there would be nothing special about God. Sort of like if everybody was famous then nobody would be, or if everybody was as good at basketball as Michael jordan then there would be nothing special about Michael Jordan. So evil, or weakness, or stupididty is necessary to make good, power, and genius a reality, and special. Everything needs it's shadow. Every partical in the universe has an antipartical. So, God is the blessed one, and his way will be done, and he will be better off then anything else that exists, everything will be for his benefit. So God will say that what is good deserves good things, and since only God is good only God deserves his paradise in heaven, and everything else is Evil just cause its not God, and deserves bad things (eternity in hell). So the only reason we're not in hell suffering right now is because he is showing mercey, because he loves us. Now he loves us, which means he has a desire for what is best for us (eternity in heaven), but that does not mean that he doesn't love himself infinitly more! So when you love something more then something else, you're gonna sacrafice the lesser love for the greater love. This doesnt answer the question of why evil and suffering exists, that just means that there may be a reason why it does that we just don't know about. So I believe that evil and suffering just has to be a part of the plan that brings God the most pleasure, and billions of souls going to hell, and some to heaven is just somehow a part of that strange plan.

So, if God wasn't evil (able to cause you pain and suffering) then why in the world does Jesus warn us to utterly fear him! "he says that the worst of what man can do to you (which is pretty freaking bad!) is absolutely nothing compared to what God can, and will do to you in hell!(if you don't repent) That's some pretty scary shit!

continues...

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 2nd, 2007 08:05 am (UTC)		(Link)

continued...

It basically says that some people were created by God to disobey him, so he can show his importance and greatness by casting them into Hell and proving that he was right, and just, and they were wrong to disobey him (because he's good and deserves praise, and obedience, just because he says so, and he's God)