From: whune	Date: December 29th, 2005 02:26 am (UTC)		(Link)

You're getting to the heart of some of the reasons many people pass God over for:
The incongruities between Christ's actual example, and the various 'good people' practices of 'christians.'

It's not so much rebelling as just being terribly misguided.
but perhaps that's just semantics.

	From: crystalfayre	Date: December 29th, 2005 03:31 am (UTC)		(Link)

Yeah Christs teachings and practices which actually represnt the spirit of Christianity kinda go against the organised churches view of Christianity which is to use it as a tool for wealth, power & control.

Still I'm sure the organised church are nice people really even if Catholocism does have all the same beliefs as the Nazis and even if the current pope was big in the Nazi movement.

Or they could be bastards, I forget which.

	From: vexen	Date: December 29th, 2005 10:33 am (UTC)		(Link)

1) Obviously the churches deviate largely from many of the reports on what Jesus teachings are. Also, it is closer to some reports than others. In total, though, the Church is corrupt and evil, it's people are deluded and lost and it does more harm than good. The more powerful the Church, the worse it is. The worst is obviously the Catholic Church, with it's continutal legal and nasty attacks on homosexuality, contraception (even in Africa where it is needed most), etc. There is something about Christianity that brings out the worst in people. Although as you say there are good Christians: You don't have to be bad, to be confused.

2) The current Pope was not "big in the Nazi movement", he was drafted in as a youngster, as all youngsters were, by force. By all accounts he was not a Nazi or a sympathizer. And believe me, I must be being honest in order to defend the pope!

"Catholicism" does not have the same beliefs as the Nazis; one was a political/paranoid racist/x-generation power mongering cabal, and the other was a politica/paranoid delusional/traditionalist power mongering pseudo-cabal.

	From: crystalfayre	Date: December 29th, 2005 08:31 pm (UTC)		(Link)

You'll find there'll always be people who find ways to turn a theoretically good idea into a way of gaining power & wealth, as whilst most people aren't, evil, power hunger bastards they are easy prey for those who are as humans are essentially pack animals and will tend to follow anyone who shows strong leadership qualities, and people that go out of their way to show strong leadership qualities tend to be evil, power hungry bastards.

As for the Popes Nazi fetish, I've heard a fair bit of stuff either way (the 'he was drafted' side which is what I originally believed and the 'he was much more involved then that but is happy for you to believe he was just drafted' side) but seeing as it was all at least second hand evidence I couldn't truly say for cetain either way.

	From: whune	Date: December 29th, 2005 04:18 am (UTC)		(Link)

"...praying is definitely not to reveal things to an all-knowing God."
*nod*

"the wishes of prayer can only ever be against God's will, as I have elaborated on above."

An understandable summation, but you're missing something.
(You'll forgive if this sounds preachy, i've no intention to set up soap box on your personal turf)

This ties into the whole 'free-will' thing:
Way back with Adam and Eve, mankind choose the Satan, and was then left to the consequences of their choice.
I don't understand the details of the grand plan, but basically Christ was introduced as the 'take it or leave it' attonement and for the most part God just leaves us to our own device, unless we request otherwise.
How does this relate to prayer?

Well God, the loving father he is like the dad sitting up at home holding the cell-phone for his wayward kid to call, so he can go help him (it does no good unless the kid asks, or one he won't ever learn, and two he'll just be driven further away); for the most part God only acts in our lives* at our request.

*and for the most part only in the lives of the 'saved'
if you aren't his kid He's not going to be bailing you out of jail.

also, there are types of 'prayer'
well a lot of things that most might think of as prayer, but are clearly demonstrated in public the New Testament:
Blessing (food and other people)
Laying on of hands.

Perhaps this is irrelevant... I'm not sure you classify those as prayer, but most 'Christians' do, and I think that has something to do with their confusion.

It seems 'prayer' is only the private, one on one, communication with God.

"God acts only when God knows it is good to act"
This is very true and gets into the whole point of prayer:
Whereas witchcraft brings you what you want (an admitted simplification and you'll pardon if i'm just completely off), God only gives it if its best.

	From: vexen	Date: December 29th, 2005 10:39 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve is not a literal truth, I'm afraid, and you'll find most Christians (apart from fundamentalists and evangelicals) don't actually believe in a physical Adam and Eve.

But... about that story... Adam and Eve didn't "choose Satan"; they chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before then, they didn't know what evil or good was. They were innocent. As such, as there was no sin yet and no concept of sin, they could not choose "against" or "for" goodness. They didn't know what deceit was, was lying was, what "rebelling against God" was. All those things were sinful things that God had not yet revealed to them or even created. "Sin was created through one man". When they "chose", it was just the way it went and it was not a real "choice", they were lied to and God didn't think that a little knowledge-of-good-and-evil might have enabled them a real truth. There was no free will involved in that story, just naivity and the inaction of an uncaring parent.

Thankfully, then, the story is obviously not true, because otherwise the only thing it would show us is that God is bad, not good.


As for the rest, Jesus says what "prayer" is, "blessings" and the other magical things you mention are all psychology, older pagan practices, etc, and although it might be considered "prayer" by some Christians today it is not, technically, prayer unless it is a prayer.

	From: house_of_borgia	Date: December 29th, 2005 05:55 am (UTC)		(Link)

as with all matters of faith, its followers should practice their beliefs instead of preachibg them
hope both of you are well, miss you both xxxx julie-anne