2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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2005
vexen

If God was a rich man...

If God was a rich man..., a stupid metaphor that someone sent me. Emotional manipulation like this only works on immature, impressionistic, moronic imbeciles. I'm going to collect some of these stupid comparisons, just out of anger that they exist at all.

The emailer gave his email address as rufflychux@hotmail.com

If God was a Richman

(Anonymous)

2006-04-18 02:01 pm (UTC)

Hello, its me again rufflychux@hotmail.com. I am here to straighten somethings out, it seems that some people don't think deep or reason good enough to recoganise a "Parable" when they sees one.
1: First of all, I used the richman in place of JESUS. We all know Jesus's status in heaven. On the other hand the lady in my Metaphor represents HUMANITY. Good, Jesus left his heavenly throne where he dwells with our father (God) the king.
2: Jesus died for us all on the cross. So Vexen you are absolutley wrong again. Jesus died like a normal man but he conquired death by rising on the third day. By dying on the cross Jesus cleansed away our sins and by rising on the third day he gave us life after death. He showed us that those that believe in him will indeed rise just like he did and join him in Heaven.
3: Yes, I am right when I said the richman puts his riches aside. Jesus did not come with a truckload of Gold, Diamonds or Jewelry. As a matter of fact he wasn't even born in a rich household. And do I need to tell you that his father was a poor shepherd?
4: God created us out of his own image and likeness. Do you know what that means? That means we share similar image as God. Yep!.. we do. And since we are created out of his image as well as likeness that automatically means that we have freewill. Without freewill there is no Love for God. If God had put a spell or something on us all to make us love him endlessly... believe me he would feel guilty. He would feel guilty because he had forced us to worship him, we all have choices. Thats why some people choose to worship him while others don't, some people loves him while others hates and blsphames him.
5: Last but not the least, I want to remind you all what the bible says in John 3:16, it reads "For God so Loved the World that he gave up his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life". That indeed means that "God do fall in love", that means that God is and will Love us all forever even though some of us rejects him, he actually Loves everyone and in return all he asks for is that we believe in him.
God did not create evil. Nope, he didn't... Adam and Eve chose evil. Do I need to remind you that God said to Adam and Eve "You may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden;
[3] but God said, `You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" please read it yourself here http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=1801.
So indeed God is inlove with you and I like it or not and he is waiting for us all. He even said no sin is unforgivable.

Re: If God was a Richman

vexen

2006-04-18 07:45 pm (UTC)

I know it's a parable: A parable is the same literary concept as an extended metaphor.

1. I understand the basic symbols you used.

2. You are repeating standard elements of Christian belief. I don't know why. Perhaps you think if you say it enough times, it'll be logical?

3. The "riches" are spiritual in nature and nothing to do with Gold, Diamonds or Jewelry.

4. So you believe that God has freewill in heaven, where there is no evil? In that case, can't you see that it's not necessary for evil to exist down here on Earth in order to have free will. You do follow that basic logic, right?

5. The Bible says lots of things, it doesn't mean they're true or moral.

6. God DID create evil, because God created everything. Every possible action that exists, every possible effect of every case, were all created by god. Every chain of events can only happen because god made them possible. God made it possible for people to suffer, made it possible for pain, cancer, radiation, etc, and made it possible for living and non-living beings to cause destruction, etc. Only because God created evil are these things possible. So yes, God DID create evil.

7. You said, "He even said no sin is unforgivable". There is an unforgiveable sin in Christianity, Jesus makes reference to it in a discussion with the pharisees in one of the synoptic gospels. I can look it up if you want... but as you're the supposed Bible fan, I suggest you do it yourself.

Not only did God create evil, and say that some sins are unforgiveable, but it also admits in The Bible that God has evil within itself. See Isaiah 30:32, Luke 14:26 Numbers 31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 18:8 Deuteronomy 20:16, Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7 Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah 18:11 for a small sample of Biblical passages which describe Jehovah as having an evil morality.

Re: If God was a Richman

astralhawk21

2006-04-28 05:58 am (UTC)

Awww Vexen, I love you man. You're so smart (really, sincerelly I mean smart), but you can be so wrong sometimes.

1. You understand basic symbols. You do not, however, seem to understand what rufflychucks is talking about. There is more to the story than just "basic symbols".

2. There you go with your logic again. God gave us brains. Some people use theirs, like you. While I can appreciate your valient attempt, logic just doesn't work when it comes to God:
log·ic: n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
2. The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events.

Logic uses facts. If a=b, then b=c. If b=c, then c=j. Therefore, if a=b, then c=j. You cannot do this with God. You cannot PROVE anything. You cannot say God created evil, God is evil, God is immoral, or God did this or that, etc. You do not have all the facts. For logic to work, you need ALL the facts. If you did not have the statement; If b=c, then c=j, you would not come to the conclusion that If a=b, then c=j. You just CANNOT get here from there.

3. Did you write the story? No. Therefore you cannot say if the "riches" are literal or metaphorical. I would err on the side of literal. If everyone started making inferances of whatever they wanted about whatever they read, then anything could have any meaning and not even smart people like you would be able to get thier point across.

4. Who ever said there was no evil in heaven? Before Satan became who he is today, he was an angel named Lucifer, and he was in heaven, and he led a bunch of angels in rebellion against God. How is that not evil?

I'd wager that there is no longer any evil in heaven, so yes, we can follow your logic. It doesn't seem like evil would be nessissary for free will, but there is evil, so... what's your point?

5. Everything in the Bible is true. ;)

6. "God DID create evil..." AGAIN, you cannot say that, because you just don't know. I'm not saying that he didn't or that he did, I'm just saying you can't say that because you don't know for sure.

7. Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

8. Not some sins, one sin. Don't twist things. "Here are 50 referances why Vexen has an evil morality: example x 50." Just about anything can make somebody seem bad if taken out of context, the press does it all the time.

A lot of the verses you have sited are about violence or have violence in them. "Punishing Rod" for example. Is punishment evil? If a father spanks his kid, does that make dad an evil guy? It's in the kid's best interest. The verse about how Christ brings the sword; There's conflict between God and the devil. God has come to claim his childeren, and the devil wants to take some as his own childeren. Not only will God fight for his kids, but he will give his kids swords to defend themselves. The verse about selling your cloak to buy a sword: Defence. Sometimes generosity will pay your way, sometimes you have to pay your own way. If you have no sword, how will you defend yourself? I'm not saying violence is good or bad, but sometimes it is nessessary. I could go on, I'm sure, but I'm dreadfully tired (again;) I stayed up too late, and I gotta go to bed.

Open to further discussion...

Re: If God was a Richman

vexen

2006-04-28 08:48 am (UTC)

2. It's not that logic "doesn't work" with God, but that the idea of God is inherently illogical.

3. Take it literally if you want.

4. Heaven is a place of perfection, and it states multiple times in the Bible that anyone 'with God' is sinless - this was one of St Pauls' and the Gnostic Christians main points. Heaven is to be in the presence of God, which is a perfect and sinless place. I bet you can't find a single Biblical passage that even hints that it is Biblical to say there is evil in heaven.

My point is: God created evil, yet evil is not required for free will. God could only create evil and suffering if it was not a benevolent God. Therefore, because of the existence of evil, God must be evil or at least not-good. This is the argument of Epicurus and early Roman philosophers, and over 2000 years it has remained the single biggest problem with saying that there is a moral or good god.

5. Uh oh.

6. If God created everything, if God is the creator god, then yes, God created evil along with every other thing, emotion, cause-and-effect chain, etc. Even if you said that "man" created evil, then we would only be able to create it if God first made "evil" a thing that could possibly exist. God must have created it in order for it to be a possible thing.

7. Exactamundo! Although historically there has been uncertainty as to exactly what the unforgiveable sin is.

8. If God was "absolutely" good, beyond any subjective morals or relativism, then God would never appear to be bad from any point of view.


Punishment is impossible from a perfectly good and loving god, especially one that has infinite mercy and compassion: God would give everyone perfect happiness whether they deserved it or not, and wouldn't need to punish anyone first. The parable of the lost sheep in Matthew and of the lost coin in Luke (I think) both state that God gives the utmost reward to people who don't deserve it, without punishing them. This is logical. It is illogical to say that a perfect god could punish anything for any reason.

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