From: hiddenpaw	Date: June 17th, 2006 07:12 am (UTC)		(Link)

Of course you are implying an assumption that being more austere makes one more holy or godly. Weather that is the case has been an on going debate in christianity since god knows when. for a while it was a noticeable devide between english catholic and english protistant.

I think that has pushed the autere=holy in to the british subcocience couple this with monks who were not meant to be a representation of how people should live in the wider world and one can see that it's not even the view of all christianity.

If one then steps back and looks at it from a neutral non-christian ethic and one has to ask what solid evidence is there that being austere makes one more holy at all.

	From: vexen	Date: June 17th, 2006 12:02 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I was more thinking along the line of "do not murder", "love your enemies", two of the 10 commandments, and from the NT when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is, he replied, "love your neighbour as yourself, there is no greater commandment than this".... that's just three *very* clear and completely undisputed hints that those who kill & murder people for believing different are indeed less godly.

The judgement isn't from a neutral, stood-back position but is solidly from a Christian point of view: Obviously, as an atheist or a moral person you also arrive at the same conclusion - the ebionites were more moral, because they were more peaceful and tolerant.

	From: hiddenpaw	Date: June 17th, 2006 01:15 pm (UTC)		(Link)

That I agree with but it totaly misses what I just said.
The point I was makeing was that you seemed to link the terms holy and godly with the word austere. It seems to display the implication that being austere makes one more Holy or godly. Where as I don't belive one reflects upon the other wheather or not it was a quality possesed by a particular group of people who might be concidered more holy than another.

One case in point is that austerity dose not make one less likely to be war like or to kill. Look in a thesurus under Austere and one would exspect that the word spartan might well be found near by. The Spartans were a very bloodthirsty lot all told (If history is to be belived).

	From: vexen	Date: June 17th, 2006 01:49 pm (UTC)		(Link)

The Spartans were definately austere, and were indeed very war-centric culture. Also, the Ebionites were very austere.

The judgement on godliness is seperate to the judgement on austerity.

	From: vexen	Date: June 17th, 2006 02:06 pm (UTC)		(Link)

On Austerity;

The Ebionites' name come from a word meaning "The Poor", as Jesus was poor. Living in poverty is a defining feature of austerity in all world-rejecting religious groups. Other early Christians were also very poor; it was a feature of Christianity that it caught on amongst the poor, as a result of it's principal teacher, Jesus, also being very poor.

The Pauline Christians were mostly roman converts, and were not poor. Saul of Tarsus was not poor, he was rich. Saul's continual harrassing and arresting of Christians was possible because he had many resources available to him. Emperor Constantine was the richest man in the Roman Empire, and when he converted (along with the Roman Army) to Pauline Christianity, the poor, austere Ebionites really did have absolutely no chance of fighting back. All their books were burnt, their followers arrested, tortured, murdered, crucified, and volumes upon volumes (not cheap to produce!) of anti-Ebionite books were produced by Constantine/Pauline Christians.

Also, Pauline Christians did not obey the Jewish laws. They were therefore less austere (which amongst Christians is a Jewish term). The Ebionites were also vegetarians, something which is also associated with austerity in history and in the present day. The Pauline Christians were not vegetarians.

I can't think of one way in which you could say that the Pauline Christians were 'more austere' than the Ebionites.

and in addition, being less godly (for reasons given) is also something that disassociates them from austerity, in Christian eyes.

	From: hiddenpaw	Date: June 17th, 2006 02:40 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I do not diagree that the Ebionites were austere. or the Roman Catholics in favor of living an opulent lifestyle (When possible). I would think it is other factors you mentioned earlier that made them holier or otherwise (Although who am I to sit in judgment).

It is my feeling that any austerity shown by jesus could have been a neccesity of being poor. Equaly so for the Ebionites. I am not sure it speaks well of thier holiness though that they seem to have declared being in a particular state of affairs a virtue, just because that is the situation they have found themselves in.

The poor have often been keen to make the state of being poor something noble; a thing to be proud of. I guess if one is poor theres nothing wrong with them coming to conclutions that make them feel better. As long as it dosn't hold them back.

Has this thing of austerity and povity been used over the years by the ritch to keep the poor in thier place?

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 7th, 2006 05:29 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Christianity

No matter what you say or do to obliterate the God of the Bible, you WILL be able to and when you die you will get to be face to face with Him. I guarantee you that. I would not want to be you. You will say, "Why did I not listen to those "crazy" Christians!" Why do you hate God sooo much???? Afraid you might actually have to be "accountable" to a higher authority? That's usually the case. :>

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 18th, 2008 05:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Christianity

Hahaha, this is very funny. If the God of the Roman Catholics exist I no on has anything to worry about cause all they have to do is believe that Jesus died a sacrificial death and they are saved. Personally I know God and you got the wrong idea.

From: scottpj	Date: September 16th, 2007 04:57 am (UTC)		(Link)
Virgin Birth

When I consider the idea of a young woman having a child, I do not see that this is of such great importance that a prophecy would need to detail it. This is a common event and normal. Why would God have to tell his people to look for it. If so then you live in a different world than I do.
Now if a young girl is to have a child without a human father, that would be worthy of a prophecy.
You be the judge. It seem simple to me.
On a different idea, one has to question why God would need a special chosen people. What purpose would they serve. What was the plan. What do you think. I will give my ideas in the next round.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 16th, 2008 05:33 am (UTC)		(Link)
Have you herd...

Have you herd of the Nazarene Essenes? If not you should look them up on the web. I think they are sometimes referred to as Ebionites. Hear is a really good site I know: http://www.thenazareneway.com/index.htm - They have the Gospel of the Nazarenes and other gnostic gospels as well as gospel Q. All around this is a good site to learn about different religions through their many links. There are actually many sites devouted to giving information about these ancient people. I have also stumbled across a couple mordern Nazarene movements in my searches. They claim that Jesus was in fact born Essene (ancient Jewish sect) in a community in Mount Carmel. They explain it on the site, you should check it out.