2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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2005
vexen

Evolution

Evolution: Vestigial Genes & Organs, Extinctions and Inefficiency all hint at Unintelligent Design

A small page at the moment, but I'll be adding more. Especially, some quotes from The Selfish Gene, which is my in-the-car reading book.

We've been having dramas getting our washing machine and dishwasher working... the former is fixed now.

One interesting to note regarding 'junk' genes is that they're great material for evolution to work on. The random, useless genes are effectively free from selection (as they don't do anything) meaning that evolution can take free rein and all kinds of useful things can result.

For example, modern mammals have several versions of haemoglobin (all with *slightly* different properties tailor for slightly different jobs), but our distant ancestors only had one. Mistakes and cock-ups in DNA replication lead to the creation of several copies of the original gene, which were then all free to evolve slightly different properties. If our genomes were more efficiently organised then that never could have happened. In fact, the organisms with the most organised and efficient genomes are bacteria, because they can't spare the energy to maintain stupid wasteful genomes like ours ;). This does end up limiting the 'tricks' they can pull though, from an evolutionary/biochemical point of view.

Thankyou for your informed comments! I remember when I first done genetics, I found all the possible duplication-errors and their results to be fascinating!

Another very useful (for us, now) result of 'junk' DNA is that we can track genohistory with them by tracing the history of mutations - as they reign, as you say, freely in junk DNA because they are from selection pressures, they serve as brilliant beacons for speciation events and historical markers of population shifts. (I know you know this, but:)

A main point of this page is to contribute to the ID lobby debates; by pointing out the lack of efficiency, I am highlighting the fact that evolution runs 'blind', without knowing what the future might hold. The advantage you point out only 'works' if you admit that evolution occurrs in the first place. For those who don't even believe in it (read: American and African fundie Christians), there is no reason for junk DNA! But, it is still there...


And...

I didn't know that about bacteria! I guess they make up for it by having rapid lifecycles!


I don't have many books simply about evolution (Dawkins' Selfish Gene is probably the most specific), do you recommend or own any? I might pick your brain later when I expand this page (the first section is going to be a monumental 'Evidence for Evolution').

Oh yes, I was arguing more from the 'evolution is cool and crazy' point of view, rather than the 'does evolution exist?' question. On a side note, I've never really understood why so many Christians get fussed about evolution - it answers the question of *how* organisms change, but doesn't answer the more metaphysical questions like "why?" and "how did it all start?". But I suppose I've never seen why science is meant to be inherantly opposed to religion, as they focus on entirely different aspects of our lives IMO.

Reagrding other books on evolution - I don't own many myself (I have a few by Dawkins alongside another few general biology popular science books), and mainly relied on my university library. I normally picked the books out pretty much by random from the evolution section, but I can try and find the titles for some of the better ones if you want. Most of the rest of my knowledge regarding evolution comes from the various lectures I've had - ironically, most of those weren't on evolution per se, but it's so fundamental to understanding biology that it creeps in all over the place :).

I'd be happy to give a read over to any expanded stuff you put up about evolution as well.

Hi,

Aggression, neatness, social closeness, and intellectual achievement depends primarily on upbringing (only 33 to 48 percent is contributed by inheritance).

It seems strange to me what aggression is mostly upbringind rather than inherited. K. Lorenz in his "On Agression" book has defined aggression as "the fighting instinct in beast and man which is directed against members of the same species" and it's playing major role in evolution. Logically, based on nature of istincts it must be mostly inherited rather than otherwise...

Regards,
Arif

Hi,

I read everything of vexen's page, I do understand that while categorising things we take an unbalanced stand and try to support our own views rather than taking a balanced view. Only when there is two opinions there can be a balance. come Mr. VExen stand in the middle, Evolution is an assumption and still a theory, I believe creation happened in that order and even in a better order. While talking about evolution you stick only to fossils and genes leaving out to discuss on the structure of the making.

Genes are only information careers. dont you need a structure to make them work. Like modern computers with programmes. Programmes may be faulty they can be modified any number of times: what effect it will have on the structure of the computing machines.

Can you ever enter into another ones mind and alter his being.
Can you alter the distance the earth is placed from the sun to make it still warmer or cooler or to produce better human beings.

Nature has laboratories our body also has laboratories and chemicals are also from laboratories. Our body laboratories have better affinity with products from nature's laboratory.

I find nature has abundance. You talk about waste genes In every ejaculation but for one the whole lot becomes waste, more than the genocide done by Hitler, Mao, Polport and Stalin.

I love the world and its content every minute after all I live 80 plus years I cannot know what was before me and what is going to be after me.why should I try to alter this beautiful world. As an individual Everything is for me as individuals everything is for them too.
Whatever I study it is all going to be between A to Z. Let my understanding of the God also be not between A to Z it is something beyond that. When everything is bubbling with beautiful life why should I try to draw lines. Life is not simply mechanical to tune the way I want it. Can I tune any gene to shower love upon me, to me I am single definitely I need another one to share my mind, I do not think you cannot alter any gene of an animal to show abundant love.

To me the wonder is amalgamating the God and Science.
Seeing God through Science and knowing Science through God.

No computer can write its own programme.

You can never get into butterflies and see the World beyond Ultra violet range. You can never get into nocturnal animals to see through Infra Red.

Perhaps if you can do that you will understand the missing links and
the Truer Intelligence stop showing psuedo intelligence.

God left man with the world and its goodness. we the most intelligent beings are ever trying to alter it to our will and brought all badness.

One drunkard begger in those days might have taken some toxic plant and caused the first mutation.

Have you ever seen animals getting themselves drunk willfully?

We humans we do everything as we wish and try to blame somebody else for our iniquities.

and also pl understand with all the toxins we have produced even your own fossil will not be available for those future generations to believe you.

You say "evolution is only a theory" but don't let that put you off. Ever heard of the theory of gravity? That, also, is "only" a theory. The strength of the theory depends on the evidence and there are mountains of evidence for evolution. As for everything you just said... where's the evidence for conscious creation?

Hi vexen

You take evidences mostly from samples and sub samples and never consider
the phenomenon which goes into the principle which set things into the action
and you consider subjects as detached and never try to attach into one universe. When you try to analyze a painting; a creation you can always
bring forth the order in which it is formed into but ...

Can you define the colour RED, you can talk about frequency and so on but we all percieve it is red because it is red.b We can only show red samples.
Simply by evolving samples it cannot be red. it is red to humans and what it is to all other beings right from bacteria to the gian elephants?

I do not understand how evolution could have set certain pehnomenon necessary for the existing beings for instance

Clouds form to bring rain when there is a discharge as lightning it is not only a light but the lightning helps the nitrogen to oxidise and become a fertilizer which I believe help the huge forestation to thrive and bring back rain again and again.

Is it not a balanced cyclic phenomenon ? like this there are humpteen cycling patterns.

cyclic actions cannot be set forth automatically unless there is some force to set them.

You categorize the living beings and refuse to ponder upon the life sustaining forces. As humans in this universe should we not consider everything ? Can you dive deep into the pacific oceans depth of 24000 feet plus and categorize the samples found there into evolution order ?

is it also not part of our world ? you try to understand the forces behind the living beings and may come to a conclusion ? Bateria are necessary for fixation of nitrogen in the soil ? it is the mutual necessity that make the living in this world interesting and with a purpose.

What is the use of purposeless nomenclatures ?

You say: "I do not understand how evolution could have set certain pehnomenon necessary for the existing beings for instance".

Evolution is what occurs when species breed and are made subject to population contraints - it has nothing to do with meta-details of the principles of the universe at large. The mountains of evidence for evolution are there for all to see in geology, biology, genetics, tectonics and paleontology: Your questions about the teleology of it all are irrelevent to the de-facto evidence.

The questions about why the Universe has the laws it does - you are obviously talking about the so-called anthropic coincidences - do not change the fact that there is a lot of evidence for evolution.

In order to abandon evolution, you have to come up with a better theory, with better evidence, to explain fossil distributon and history, genetics, speciesation, etc.

Your questions on the anthropic coincidences are fine questions, which naturalist philosophers have answered many-a-time in history, but they are not par se about the evidence for evolution. And I did ask you... not for more questions, more rhetoric: but for evidence. If you are proposing an alternative to evolution, the place to start is with evidence for your theory, not with further questions for mine.

Mr . Vexen

In one post you support Homosexuality and here you talk about breeding. (H?) Without sex between two opposite sex how breeding will occur. I suppose the meta details of the principles of the Universe is only for the multiplication purpose of the species. I dont use that word anthropic coincidences, to me it is anthropic concreteness. For every living being there is a purpose in this universe. Because every action in this universe is orderly and referral. Why you people are adamant and hoodwinked to see one aspect of it.

Among humans, love is the greatest of the expression and emotion without it the purpose of humanity is waste and worthless. I love humanity and I cannot accept anything which goes against it. To show love essentially you need two. One cannot become two without two proper ones.

(Pl note Mr Anton La vey in his satanic bible had just distorted the Sermon on the mount and did not have his own texts for his bible. How we can coin a new word for distortion?)

Evolution is distortion and can not be a conclusion.
When you call the physicality of humans as meta details
then you wont have words to call the spirituality which I strongly believe the expression of love which is exclusive to humans and inherent in them which could not have evolved.
I believe you are all there to oppose the very phenomenon of love.

When I post this I honestly say that I do have a brotherly love for you Mr Vexen. Using this media facility we are able to share our views without even seeing each other.
the mind or the order of occurrences through the media machines; which one you will consider to be more proper?

By the way have you completed reading the Human Anatomy book ?

You are obsessed with homosexuality.

And, you have not answered any of my response.

There is no longer any point in talking to you, as I am sure you will continue to respond with crazy rants, rather than engage in conversation.

I like to call you Dr Vexen,

Let us not break it here.

At least after three years this thread is alive.

Let us sort it out one by one.

Personally I cant figure out Homosexuality. I have a very loving family around me and I do not need any extra fun.

That apart it is not convincing or convicting.

Let me get your ideas on these subjects. When I say emotion of love is inlusive in Natural World you dont have answer, instead you say that I am not responding.

What type of response you want ?

Just answer me this plain question if there is no proper sex how evolution can breed the species ?

Aftr all conversations include questions and answers.

The problem here is I happened to read all your posts. so may be the anxiety diverted me.

Are we not sharing the mind ?

Hi Dr Vexen

You resemble Dr Faustus as you sit among the books of your library.

I would suggest you and all who visit your blog to please

go to this following blog and read all the entries, subentries links and come to your own conclusion.

come back and inform me how did you feel

and read my blog also

http://www.earthage.org/intro


Dr Vexen

Had time to read those pages
Well, understand the truth.
dont waste your 80 plus years of life in assuming
billions and millions.

If you do all your scientific calculations in moon, the reachable celestial body, Einstin and Darwin can bring out only nonsense. All your fumulae and calculations will go wrong. You do them all in a very ideal place and yet chanting unidealistic topics.

Instead believe in a creator who kept everything in order and ideal to be ready for you even before your arrival, so only the best will be awaiting you in your exit also.

If you pity too much for satan then you will end up in pity
and wont have anybody there to pity for you including satan.

Unless so much of nitrogen mixes with oxygen as fertiliser to the unkempt nature, they cannot produce so much oxygen which is the life force for you and your evolutionary beings and you wont have breath to talk all these nonsense.

Show me one basic sensible formula other than this and continue your crazy assumptions.


This great universe has some purpose, and understand your purpose.

"If you do all your scientific calculations in moon, the reachable celestial body, Einstin and Darwin can bring out only nonsense"

You are waffling incomprehensible craziness. You sound like an occultist. What on Earth are you talking about?

Dr vexen

Thanks for coming in again breaking your silence.

I am not an occulist. How you could find occultism in my replies ? I believe Earth is the only ideal place balanced well for all the living beings. Only with the given provisions in the earth we are all able to propell out our theories. I believe in creation and everything was created with a purposeful accuracy and there are more to derive from them than to assume things. The creations calculations are exact and accurate. We refuse to accept them. My son who is doing his Engineering has an equation which prooves 1 is equal to 2. In mathematics it can never be so. Same with the creator also; With our acquired knowledge We try to prove the creator a fool.

Ponder into this.

For the Moon should also have at least some say in whether or not it thinks that Creator had anything to do with the Creation of the Sun and the Earth and the Moon. Thanks to Tim Wildmon, and the authors of a new book, we now have our answer.

“Knight and Butler, then noticed some very odd mathematical relationships between the size of the Moon, Earth and Sun. The orbital characteristics of the Moon and Earth, they say, are unlikely to exist by chance alone. For example, the Earth revolves 366 times in one orbit of the Sun and the Earth is 366% larger than the Moon. Conversely, the Moon takes 27.32 days to orbit the Earth and is 27.32% of the Earth’s size.”

Wildmon then quotes Knight and Butler as follows:

“There is no possible relationship between the relative size of the Earth and the Moon and their orbital characteristics, yet the numbers are the same. And that was just the first of many such patterns,” said Knight. “The number 366 was the basis of the ancient measuring system we have reconstructed, and that number keeps popping up along with a small group of round numbers such as 400 and 10,000. For example, the Moon is 400 times closer to the Earth than the Sun and exactly 400 times smaller than the Sun. And in 366 orbits of the Moon, the Earth experiences 10,000 days.” 15

These are just some of the amazing “coincidences” that exist between the Earth, Moon, and Sun that seem to suggest (to those willing to listen) that an Intelligent Being of some sort had a Hand in the creation of the Earth, Moon, and Sun. The Book is titled “Who Built the Moon?” by Christopher Knight and Alan Butler.

So Dr Vexen willing listening can build up your wisdom;
proper calculations can unfold creation. One here one there, can only add upto confusion. Never should confuse humanity whose life is 80 plus.

Further you do not address to my valid points. instead you
try to pick up holes from my words like all evolutionistic unbelievers do.

You know my native language is Tamil, we have very meaningful words in usage. "appa" - abba - father,
"Adam" A + Dam - That Red man, Eve - Avva - the grand old lady, and lots like this.

Read Human Anatomy book for yourself and you will come to know about the "real design". Considering diseases evolutionists cry wolf about the faulty design.

Creation never intended diseases and humanity vouches for it with their ignorance and foolishness.

Dr Vexen

some how I feel like sharing with you again and again.

I practice Homeopathy for some years and I have cured so many adverse conditions of the body.

You know many of these curatives are plant extracts. We eat food in large quantities for energy; these plants have same energy in smaller quantities which has to be discreetly selected for the ailments.

Because I know the diseases are body and mind related I am able to select the remedies easily. I have humpteen choices before me. But modern medicines are disease related. So big fuss is made on the disease instead exploring the body and mind.

For instance Cancer is a Cancer wherver it appears, it has more telling effect in the mind than the body if known the disease is there. All because of the unnecessary hype it was given. But I have cured some cases without even telling them the conditions. I cured my MUM and she is living till date (80+).

Listen to this.

When you fly you are asked to put on seat belt during take off and landing; if anything untowardly happens you are sure about the the end.

But we are reluctant to put on seat belt while driving;
but here seat belting can really save in many situations.

Seat belts do save but ... only where it is really useful.

Yet we can ask so many cranky questions about homeopathy and seat belts.

Dr Vexen

Now I have a pertinent question. Because you talk about telepathy of human brains,

Can you do a computer program based on informations from human "smelling" ? Is it also not part of human faculty.

Of course light and sound have frequencies ?

My father (an angry, unhappy man who worked on computer programming at the very infancy of the science whom I do not remember very fondly) once conveyed the following joke to me. (In a strange way, I think it has to do with evolution and our possible role in furthering it.)

The governments of the world gathered the top computer scientists of the world and assigned them the task of creating an intelligent computer (hoping thereby to solve many of humanity's severe problems and dilemmas). The computer scientists were given all the resources they asked for in both hardware and software.
After weeks of work, the scientists told the world leaders, “We have succeeded in developing artificial intelligence. The world's first intelligent computer is ready to start answering your questions.”

The Secretary-General of the United Nations approached the microphone. (The machine could understand and speak to human beings, of course.)

He said, "We have many questions, but our first one is one that humans have wrestled with for thousands of years. If you can answer this to our satisfaction, we will know you really are an intelligent machine. Is there a God?"

The computer replied in its disembodied, inhuman voice, "That is a challenging question. It will take time and all our computing resources. We will let you know when we have the answer."

A week later, the scientists summoned the world leaders. They gathered to listen to the computer.

In a new, very deep voice, the computer replied: “You asked if there is a God. Our answer is:

THERE IS NOW!

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