From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 6th, 2002 02:43 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Reality from Cybal

Solipsism is just a word connected to the fact that everything we do is just a result of our minds and nothing more. I could not believe this any further than I do. This is the reason why bad things happen to those who are pessimists and depressed, and also why the happy people seem to just have perfect lives. The simple fact that this is real negates the reason for me even to write here, but I like to comment on all I have to think about. Some people are physical and some are mental, this depends on how you take everything. I am fully mental, although I am not unphysical. When I am unhappy, everything said unto me becomes an insult, a slap in the face that just makes it worse, and even when they try to cheer me up and say nice things, my mind won't let me accept that and the intentions of good turn to stabs in my heart, I would break down into tears before my mood lifted. Beleive what you want, because you have no other choice than to do so, and know, if you want to, that we are all inclosed in our own prison, we don't do anything more with other people than we allow our selves to think we do, and we never do as much as we want, the most we can do is exchange feelings, pleasure, and sorrow, and even that is limited.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 5th, 2002 10:36 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Question

Would you say that your ideas on epistemology and subjectivism reflect the philosophy of the Satanic Bible? I was under the impression that a Satanist would rebuke a spiritual pipe dream rather than claim that all things are true, depending on the person's perspective. Heaven would be an acceptable truth, under this assumption. Didn't Anton LaVey demand that “whatever alleged ‘truth’ is proved by results to be but an empty fiction, let it be unceremoniously flung into the outer darkness, among the dead gods, dead empires, dead philosophies, and other useless lumber and wreckage”(SB, pg 32).

I am under the impression that a Satanist would don a subjectivist attitude only in the ritual chamber, where reality is temporarily suspended. I assumed that a Satanist would believe that in mundane reality, all truths are dependent upon fact, not fancy.

Please help clear this up for me.

Glanecia
cobseattle@hotmail.com

	From: vexen	Date: August 6th, 2002 04:19 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Question

"Would you say that your ideas on epistemology and subjectivism reflect the philosophy of the Satanic Bible?"

The Satanic Bible doesn't mention epistemology much, but what it does mention accords much more with subjectivism than it does with absolutism. For example Anton points out that everyone makes different assumptions about god and therefore everyone creates their own god according to their needs. This is subjectivism because it shows that everyone experiences life differently.

Doesn't confuse it with compatabilism, the belief that everyone's opinions on reality is true, instead subjectivism is the belief that none of us know what is real compared to what other people see. It is not the belief that what everyone experiences or thinks is true, but that all our experiences differ.

Therefore subjectivism sets up doubt and enquiry to be highly important, if not most important, intellectual values and this certainly agrees with LaVey's question everything.

Epistemology essays

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 25th, 2003 04:34 am (UTC)		(Link)
absurdity

Nice site. Funny how most responses you get are arguements. I'm an absurdist, myself. All of existence and the potential therein is a joke, and each manifesting moment is another punch line. The trick is to get the joke.

There are temporal limitations to absurdity. Remember when you believed in Santa and God and perfect love? Most children are raised to be totally insane, and therefore take things quite seriously. A signifigant amount of unlearning is needed. Absurdists are no less absurd than anything else, we just don't need a drink as badly.

	From: vexen	Date: February 25th, 2003 10:30 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: absurdity

I wasn't brought up to believe in God... but Santa, yeah.

Is a person insane for learning in GCSE physics that atoms go around atoms in orbits? Or is their understanding merely a stepping stone to greater understanding?

Apart from their... I like your beliefs :-)

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 4th, 2003 03:57 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: absurdity

No, but a person is insane for believing in atomic orbits or moon landings or anything else that they've merely HEARD of as if it were a part of themselves, an experience they've had. That is brainwashing, and it is too easy. In this absurd world, if a person strips naked, lies on the ground, and hugs the earth in eternal gratitude for their creation, they are generally viewed as a looney. But if they were to kneel and worship some big, invisible superhero like Jesus or Satan, they'd be seen as quite a bit more sane! F*#k ME!

	From: vexen	Date: March 4th, 2003 05:40 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: absurdity

Some people do view superstitious organisations like Churches as valid spiritual educators in the same way normal people view qualified scientists and teachers as valid supplies of the content of our education.

People even say spiritual stuff gets results... it does, but unfortunately those results are more often the result of psychology and physiology. Thankfully the moder world (except the USA) has dropped most superstition, especially at higher levels, though the less educated and more sheep-like masses do hang on to spiritual things for longer.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 19th, 2003 08:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: absurdity

OMG, You do not have to experiance somthing to know it is real.....I am a Male but I still believe Female's exist and that Female's can be pregnate even though I am not a women and can't give birth. Another example, I am a fencer (with swords) my coach is a 3 time olympian and a 5 time world champion. Am I yet? No do I believe that they did it, yes. I have seen the Metal I have seen the rankings I know for a fact they did.

I have never commited murder do I believe people do, yes.

I have never and I am betting you have never made a computer should we then to be led to believe that computers are a natrel rescourse that grow out of the ground like flowers and lily's?

No

I can tell you one thing about yourself. You Fear Reailty. Plain and simple that is what it is. You Fear life. So you devolp the believe that are senses are inaccurate and we can't know and consider your thoughts on the topic proof enough.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 1st, 2003 12:31 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Fool.....

You would have to be [i]Insane[/i] to belive this. If knowlege is a non-aboslute and most or all knowlege doesn't exist what made the computer you are reading this off of? Instinct? No? Was it their when human beings evolved? No! Knowlege IS a aboslute their IS a right and wrong anser to most things...Your veiws are all irrlavent. Who cares if one person sees a diffrent "Yellow" than you do...I am on a computer other than my own so if you need proof e-mail me at Zeddiucus1@msn.com or AIM me at Anticommunst@aol.com.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 5th, 2003 05:44 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Subjectivism is unclear

Subjectivism seems unclear to me since it assums that things exist only in perception. Yet things exist independent of an interpretur. The facts or truth of reality exist already. It is for man to discover real things and so name them as they become percievable.
All subjectivism seems to do is degrade the quality of truth. The actual thing percieved is objective when it is real. We simply call it this or that.

northstar58@netzero.com

	From: vexen	Date: September 15th, 2003 04:04 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Subjectivism is unclear

Subjectivism doesn't state that only perception exist, merely that all of our knowledge and experience is due to fallible perception, and as such everything is "subjective" - we only have experiences that images of reality distorted by our own imperfect senses and thought.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 15th, 2003 03:52 pm (UTC)		(Link)
This Is A Foolish Ideal

This ideal, this philosophy, this hogwash. Reality is there for us to PRECIEVE. Not to make. Reality exist wether we except it or not. You cannot truly know anything becuase of expericance diffrence? I am a man would you therefor tell me that Women don't exist, becuase I have never experianced being one? The computer you are seeing this on was made by someone. Some Rational person that precieved reailty. Not someone who yelped that we can't know reailty. If I came up to anyone on the streets with a knife or a gun, how would they react? They'd be scared shitless. They'd be afraid and if they could they'd run away or some sort of defense. Then I come up to you with a knife what would you subjectivist do? $20 says you won't preach about how we can't know if I am really holding a knife to your head or not. Life is sustained through reason, not wishes or whims or mysticism. You who preach this ideal simply are afraid of reality. If we cannot know anything for sure than how can we know for sure that you really made this website I am posting this on? Becuase it is there. How do you know you are alive. Hell, why do we need to sleep, eat, work, breath, walk, sit, jump, run,THINK!!!!!!! According to your idea we don't. That's what it comes down to anyhow. I'll give you a idea. How about you do nothing, you don't sit, sleep, eat, drink, or talk for 1 year. Just stand up and do nothing. You'd die. Becuase reailty is there and I can tell you one thing for sure IF YOU DON'T DRINK WATER YOU WILL DIE. But then again how can we know you are really dead?

I don't see how College Level students are falling for Subjectivism.

I can give you 2 absolutes right now.
I am Alive
I am Dead

You are free to avoid reality. You are not free to avoid the effect of your actions. Avoiding reality will bring death as surely as a H-bomb on the top of your head.


Anyone who believes in this. I codem you to the worst possible fate....

I am leaving you to your fate

	From: vexen	Date: September 15th, 2003 03:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: This Is A Foolish Ideal

Before continuing, I think you should re-read what subjectivism is, and make sure you're not confusing it with Solipsism

http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/solipsism.html

Subjectivism isn't the denial of reality, but the simple honest fact that everyone sees reality differently.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 15th, 2003 04:40 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: This Is A Foolish Ideal

Do you have AIM? I'd like to talk about this with you.

I am an Objectivist. I believe in Knowledge as an Abosulte value...

If we cannot know everything or be sure we know anything.......I got a question.

Prove it

	From: vexen	Date: September 16th, 2003 01:06 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: This Is A Foolish Ideal

The page you're commenting on lays the some of the physical / biological reasoning behind subjectivism.

We have:

1. Our senses and thoughts are imperfect and variable

2. Our experience & inner character is different to everyone else

3. The way we perceive things is therefore different to everyone else

In addition to physics:

4. It is logically and physically impossible to precisely know the speed and location of a particle

5. There is inherent uncertainty in reality

meaning:

6. Reality itself is different according to point of observation, meaning: No two observers can logically see precisely the same reality

Given that everyone has a slightly different brain, it is obvious to me that everyone experiences reality slightly differently... your task (it's a big one!) is to prove that somehow two people *do* experience reality in the same way.

	From: vexen	Date: September 16th, 2003 01:06 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: This Is A Foolish Ideal

I don't use any instant chat programs. I have an ICQ account but rarely turn it on.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 17th, 2003 05:50 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: This Is A Foolish Ideal

I see where you are coming from, but don't you see that how easily this is shot back at you? I say this...Prove to me that one cannot precieve the same things the same way everyone else does. Give me un-deniable evidance. I will believe it only then.

heh, if we cannot know anything for sure becuase our sense's aren't "accutrate" or "good enough" or what not, than you know somthing lol, how can you know that quantum physics are correct and we are not missing somthing?

Here's a nice Double Think. " We cannot be sure of anything, I am sure of this"

heh. how can you be sure that we cannot be sure of anything. I relize your arguement, but it is so

1) Sorry to say but, irrelanvent to life. Who gives a shit if yellow is a diffrent shade to me than to you? Really sorry to offend you but what are you going to do about it?

2) I am sure you have read 1984 by George Orwell. In case you havn't here is somthing "Double Think: To have a contrediction in your mind and yet accept both things (IE: George is smart; George is dumb. and accept both to be true even though the first cancels out the 2nd and the 2nd cancels out the 1st.)
That is in a way what some believes of subjectivism are "It is possible that everything that you see, the entirety of what you consider "reality" is complete illusion."

Then you believe that the "Reality" of Quantum Physic's proves that "Reality" might somehow be false. Does everyone see the problem here? If Quantum Physics proves that we might not be able to know reality wouldn't that count for Quantum Physics to? I am having some trouble putting this in to words but think of it this way "Can god make so much food that not even god could eat it." By saying one it makes the whole idea of god false. As such is it with Quantum Physics "Subjectivism". You see how this works. If we can't know reality or at least be sure of reailty how can we know that Quantum Physics is accurate.



heh, I don't mean to offend anyone and consider this matter open to debate by anyone and everyone, I just think if you got AIM or MSN it would be a lot easier to debate this than over a message Board.

Do you see where I am coming from at least.

Oh yes and that quote on subjectivism about how we might not be sure of anything, that is Subjectivism I got it off your site.