Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
vexen

Subjectivism Part One

Subjectivism: Everything we know is pervaded by personal opinion


Reality from Cybal

(Anonymous)
Solipsism is just a word connected to the fact that everything we do is just a result of our minds and nothing more. I could not believe this any further than I do. This is the reason why bad things happen to those who are pessimists and depressed, and also why the happy people seem to just have perfect lives. The simple fact that this is real negates the reason for me even to write here, but I like to comment on all I have to think about. Some people are physical and some are mental, this depends on how you take everything. I am fully mental, although I am not unphysical. When I am unhappy, everything said unto me becomes an insult, a slap in the face that just makes it worse, and even when they try to cheer me up and say nice things, my mind won't let me accept that and the intentions of good turn to stabs in my heart, I would break down into tears before my mood lifted. Beleive what you want, because you have no other choice than to do so, and know, if you want to, that we are all inclosed in our own prison, we don't do anything more with other people than we allow our selves to think we do, and we never do as much as we want, the most we can do is exchange feelings, pleasure, and sorrow, and even that is limited.

Question

(Anonymous)
Would you say that your ideas on epistemology and subjectivism reflect the philosophy of the Satanic Bible? I was under the impression that a Satanist would rebuke a spiritual pipe dream rather than claim that all things are true, depending on the person's perspective. Heaven would be an acceptable truth, under this assumption. Didn't Anton LaVey demand that “whatever alleged ‘truth’ is proved by results to be but an empty fiction, let it be unceremoniously flung into the outer darkness, among the dead gods, dead empires, dead philosophies, and other useless lumber and wreckage”(SB, pg 32).

I am under the impression that a Satanist would don a subjectivist attitude only in the ritual chamber, where reality is temporarily suspended. I assumed that a Satanist would believe that in mundane reality, all truths are dependent upon fact, not fancy.

Please help clear this up for me.

Glanecia
cobseattle@hotmail.com

"Would you say that your ideas on epistemology and subjectivism reflect the philosophy of the Satanic Bible?"


The Satanic Bible doesn't mention epistemology much, but what it does mention accords much more with subjectivism than it does with absolutism. For example Anton points out that everyone makes different assumptions about god and therefore everyone creates their own god according to their needs. This is subjectivism because it shows that everyone experiences life differently.

Doesn't confuse it with compatabilism, the belief that everyone's opinions on reality is true, instead subjectivism is the belief that none of us know what is real compared to what other people see. It is not the belief that what everyone experiences or thinks is true, but that all our experiences differ.

Therefore subjectivism sets up doubt and enquiry to be highly important, if not most important, intellectual values and this certainly agrees with LaVey's question everything.

Epistemology essays


absurdity

(Anonymous)
Nice site. Funny how most responses you get are arguements. I'm an absurdist, myself. All of existence and the potential therein is a joke, and each manifesting moment is another punch line. The trick is to get the joke.

There are temporal limitations to absurdity. Remember when you believed in Santa and God and perfect love? Most children are raised to be totally insane, and therefore take things quite seriously. A signifigant amount of unlearning is needed. Absurdists are no less absurd than anything else, we just don't need a drink as badly.

I wasn't brought up to believe in God... but Santa, yeah.

Is a person insane for learning in GCSE physics that atoms go around atoms in orbits? Or is their understanding merely a stepping stone to greater understanding?

Apart from their... I like your beliefs :-)

Re: absurdity (Anonymous) Expand
Re: absurdity (Anonymous) Expand

Fool.....

(Anonymous)
You would have to be [i]Insane[/i] to belive this. If knowlege is a non-aboslute and most or all knowlege doesn't exist what made the computer you are reading this off of? Instinct? No? Was it their when human beings evolved? No! Knowlege IS a aboslute their IS a right and wrong anser to most things...Your veiws are all irrlavent. Who cares if one person sees a diffrent "Yellow" than you do...I am on a computer other than my own so if you need proof e-mail me at Zeddiucus1@msn.com or AIM me at Anticommunst@aol.com.

Subjectivism is unclear

(Anonymous)
Subjectivism seems unclear to me since it assums that things exist only in perception. Yet things exist independent of an interpretur. The facts or truth of reality exist already. It is for man to discover real things and so name them as they become percievable.
All subjectivism seems to do is degrade the quality of truth. The actual thing percieved is objective when it is real. We simply call it this or that.

northstar58@netzero.com

Re: Subjectivism is unclear


Subjectivism doesn't state that only perception exist, merely that all of our knowledge and experience is due to fallible perception, and as such everything is "subjective" - we only have experiences that images of reality distorted by our own imperfect senses and thought.

This Is A Foolish Ideal

(Anonymous)
This ideal, this philosophy, this hogwash. Reality is there for us to PRECIEVE. Not to make. Reality exist wether we except it or not. You cannot truly know anything becuase of expericance diffrence? I am a man would you therefor tell me that Women don't exist, becuase I have never experianced being one? The computer you are seeing this on was made by someone. Some Rational person that precieved reailty. Not someone who yelped that we can't know reailty. If I came up to anyone on the streets with a knife or a gun, how would they react? They'd be scared shitless. They'd be afraid and if they could they'd run away or some sort of defense. Then I come up to you with a knife what would you subjectivist do? $20 says you won't preach about how we can't know if I am really holding a knife to your head or not. Life is sustained through reason, not wishes or whims or mysticism. You who preach this ideal simply are afraid of reality. If we cannot know anything for sure than how can we know for sure that you really made this website I am posting this on? Becuase it is there. How do you know you are alive. Hell, why do we need to sleep, eat, work, breath, walk, sit, jump, run,THINK!!!!!!! According to your idea we don't. That's what it comes down to anyhow. I'll give you a idea. How about you do nothing, you don't sit, sleep, eat, drink, or talk for 1 year. Just stand up and do nothing. You'd die. Becuase reailty is there and I can tell you one thing for sure IF YOU DON'T DRINK WATER YOU WILL DIE. But then again how can we know you are really dead?

I don't see how College Level students are falling for Subjectivism.

I can give you 2 absolutes right now.
I am Alive
I am Dead

You are free to avoid reality. You are not free to avoid the effect of your actions. Avoiding reality will bring death as surely as a H-bomb on the top of your head.


Anyone who believes in this. I codem you to the worst possible fate....

I am leaving you to your fate

Re: This Is A Foolish Ideal


Before continuing, I think you should re-read what subjectivism is, and make sure you're not confusing it with Solipsism

http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/solipsism.html

Subjectivism isn't the denial of reality, but the simple honest fact that everyone sees reality differently.

You must relize somthing

(Anonymous)
Good things do not happen to people who are happy with their lifes.

Bad things do not happen to angry people becuase they are angry.

People are happy with their lifes becuase good things happen to them

Angry people are angry becuase bad things happen to them.....


Really this one is pretty obviose.......you people are idiots. Someone posted "I have noticed good things happen to happy people" this somehow proves reailty exist in your own skull and no where else or somthing of that such.........By god my friends 11 year old son proved that wrong the moment he read it......Holy shit god damn, you guys have sunken pretty low to be beaten so easiely by a 11 year old.

The post I was refering to is one about Soliopism.



hypocrisy

(Anonymous)
It is very "interesting" that you are interested in Satanism (self-worship) while being interested in subjectivism at the same time. Anton Levey's satanism has a lot in common with the philosophy of objectivism, which would be completely at variance with subjectivism.

Ayn Rand's philosophy of "Objectivism" does indeed receive a lot of respect from within the Satanic community - however - LaVey's writings have things in common, true, but are not intrinsically Objectivist. Neither are they un-objectivist, the final line is drawn by the person in question. Would it be any other way, in a religion where you're commanded - well, firmly advised - to think for yourself?

Subjectivism and Objectivism, although their names may imply they are opposites, are not really -isms of the same game. Objectivism is epistemology whereas Ayn Rand's philosophy, commonly called Objectivism and drawn from the book "Atlas Shrugged", is primarily a moral philosophy.

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/dictionary.html#O links to two excellent reviews of "Objectivism" within Satanism, I highly recommend you read them!

(Oh damn, it looks like something terrible has happened to one of the links, I'll leave the link there for a while to see if the two guys who run the domain take control! The other one though is by mighty Nemo, a Magister in the Church of Satan.)

knowledge and subjectivism

(Anonymous)
If you want to claim that nothing can be known, then you create the need for another word in language to describe what everyone else calls 'knowledge' aside from subjectivist quibbling. You know that you cannot put your hand through a wall, you know that if you don't eat, you will die. Even the most hard core subjectivists don't act like they don't believe in the reality that they claim is so slippery. Though we can err in our observation of reality, reality still exists, and a person would do well to try and use their imperfect senses and logic to try and discover as much objective truth as they can.

Re: knowledge and subjectivism

"put hand through wall" means different things to different people, according to their experience. The thought process of imagining "hand through wall" is different for every person.

This seams like an extremly interesting site, who are you all and whats the deal with the subject materieal.

Thanks :-)

To answer your questions:

* There is only one of me, my name is Vexen.

* The subject material is occasioned by whatever takes my interest. A history of my site and what material went up when, can be found at:

http://geocities.com/vexenuk.geo/new.html

About colors.

(Anonymous)
I can see how one might thing that about colors. Being taughtt oaccept something as that color. But if such were the case then how come camouflage works so well? If the colors were switched up, wouldn't the become more visible?

Interesting idea, but I'm sticking wit the fact that we all see in the same colors. I have been tested for colorblindness on several occasions and with those tests, if you're not seeing in the same color spectrum as everyone else they just wouldn't work.

Re: About colors.

No, similar colours look similar to all our eyes because all our eyes work in the same way and give precedence to the same sets of light frequencies: BUT, the way our brain INTERPRETS those frequencies could still be vastly different from person to person, it's just that similar colours would appear only slightly different WITHIN the other persons' "alien" viewpoint, so camoflage would still work fine.

Subjectivism

(Anonymous)
In your essay on subjectivism, you declare that no knowledge is absolute. That is a self-refuting statement. In fact, subjectivism is self-refuting. Knowledge and truth are absolute and objective and the only way to argue against this truth is to first assume that it is true.

You appear to hold human reason in high regard as it pertains to arriving at truth, yet reason collapses under the subjective worldview and as a result, one cannot attain absolute truth in a subjective framework. One must hold that contradictions are possible in order to support subjectivism.

It is not self-refuting: As we only have subjective means of learning about the world, all knowledge is subjective. We have no way of knowing Absolute truth, so even if it does exist (I cannot claim to know), it is AS IF there is no absolute truth.

Also, given the scientific advent of the discovery of quantum mechanics, i.e., observer affect, we KNOW that as observers AFFECT results of quantum interactions, all knowledge is affected by the self in the first place, even before direct observations are made.

Objectivism is fine as a theory, but it is a practical impossibility (although it may be true, there is no way of finding out).

I post here firstly to say i really love your site (supay thoughts). It was really interesting.

I believe myself in subjectivism, in fact, I'd say i am subjectivist... I liked the exemple of the the sun (reality by consensus) because that is a thing I thought of, one day (before I even knew subjectivism existed...)

I noticed lots of people gave exemples such as 'I know for sure the hand doesn't go through the wall'. Well, you do, I do too, the majority of people do. But, there is maybe one guy, somewhere, who could be called 'insane' that thinks he can pass through walls, and that he thinks for sure he did it or is doing it. In short, realities between people can be really similar... but never exactly similar. I like to think as there is one true reality, our senses convert this reality into our minds, but this reality is changed in the process. (a little for 'sane' people and most of the time quite more for 'insane's)

->Wrote that because I just don't really understand why people reject so much the idea of a subjective reality. I'm really sorry if I repeated things that were on your website, but I don't want to have to read another time your essay on subjectivism to be sure I don't repeat anything I didn't read all comments either... (I am lazy :) )
-> Sorry again if there is mistakes in my text, I'm french, so please forgive me.

Re: -

(Anonymous)
oh well... I just read the post before mine... it says the same things I just wrote... I should pay more attention... sorry!

Re: - (Anonymous) Expand

the color perceiving cells are not rods, they are cones.

(Anonymous)
the color perceiving cells are not rods, they are cones.

Heisenburg

(Anonymous)
...is spelled Heisenberg.

Oh and the article kicked ass. I would not care to write if it did not.

-g

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