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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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The Four Dimensions and the Immutability of God

New Page: "The Four Dimensions and the Immutability of God" by Vexen Crabtree (2007)
  1. Two, Three and Four Dimensional Objects
  2. Existing Outside of Time
  3. The Immutability of God
I haven't got access to any of my physics books (like John Gribbon's books) that no doubt have some commentary on issues like these... so for now this page is merely a bit of a rant.

if people have created a psychological god not a material one(yet). this god they've created is entirely a reflection of their relationship with authority(their super ego state). would'nt physics fall short of being able to explain this?

another view on God's immutability

(Anonymous)

2007-06-04 03:39 pm (UTC)

It seems awfully restrictive (even logically) to say that because God is immutable (which God indeed is) God is cold and emotionless, or that God cannot affect time or our 4D universe. From my point of view, I see God as creator and sustainer of all things. I base this on biblical teachings, my own observations of the world around me, and most impotantly, my faith; faith which stems form the influence I feel of God's love and care for me. I know that I cannot scientifically argue things I believe that I justify by faith (and thats not to say that faith and science are totally incompatible but that's another subject). However, there is a logical argument I'd like to point out. You gave an analogy of a child and a flip book in your article... Using that same analogy, neither the stickman in the flipbook nor the flipbook itself can change or exert influence over the child. The child, however, is not restricted to simply watching or knowing the flipbook from start to end. He is free to change the drawings, add pages, remove pages, or even create new flipbooks; He can exert all kinds of influence over his creation without changing who or what he is. Also, a child who can create a stickman has emotions, intellectual thoughts, and a vast imagination. Considering that, God, who created children, must be even more vastly complex in terms of what He is capable of thinking, feeling, or doing. You also used an analogy of a sculptor... I personally believe God to be like a sculptor, or any artist, reallly. Most artists care greatly for their creations, just as I believe that God cares greatly for people which are his creations. He is above and beyond the dimensions that we are capable of knowing and understanding, yet people of faith all over the world, for as long as faith has existed, would attest that God lives and moves and has profound effects on our world and in people's lives. Also, a stickman is not capable of understanding the child that drew it. Likewise, we are not capable of fully understanding God, the creator of our universe, though endeavoring to understand and know him the best that we can is a worthy pusuit (the most worthy in my personal opinion). I realize that a great deal of what I've written hinges on my beliefs that God does indeed exist and loves us all so greatly, and I hope that perhaps that might be relevant to you. If not then perhaps the points I brought up that appeal more to logic at least present something stimulating to think about. God bless!

-T. Eaton

Good Points

(Anonymous)

2007-06-13 05:23 am (UTC)

both these people made very relevant points, and I personally think that this is one of the most interesting posts you have made yet. I look forward to seeing more information.

quantum physics and the copenhagen effect philosophy

hybridmaster

2007-07-19 09:07 pm (UTC)

you are right about god just being an image of a single possibility. We now live in a age of quantum physical spiritualism. It has been discover now that we can control our reality by reflecting our desires onto the quantum level and eventually they become reality here. The main way this is achieved is through the Law of Attraction which states that thoughts become things. If one connects a thought with a matching emotion then it is believed that this strong vibrational frequency will attract that object or thing into their reality if the vibrational frequency of the thing or object is a match. The way this quantum physics principle works is it plays with the concept of the observer effect. It is believed that we are observers of our own universe (sounds familiar?), and that there are infinite possibilities and we see only one, the one we chose.
This came into effect because Neils Bohr discovered that if you look at an atom and chose to look for waves you will find waves, but if you looking for particles you will see particles like Einstein did. This great principle called the Copenhagen Effect eventually lead to a new philosophyof today called The Universal Law of Attraction. The one flaw is the fact that we can change and to use the Law of Attraction you have to obtain a state of least change (closing in to the definition of god you gave) onto yourself to increase the probability of things changing towards your vibrational match.
The hard part is the fact that hard science is one of the causes for this philosophy forming Because, all the great literature, tales, and stories lead to the conclusion that the observer effect has been a principle that happens in every case we examine.
It would be interesting if you could do some research on the Universal Law of Attraction because I am sure, since, quantum physics is the reason for its uprising that you be interest in doing a page on it. Plus, it ties in to the dimension argument in some cases also like your description of god at the end of the page

PS: The Law of Attraction also would give you answers probably about the current development on Quantum Soul Theory

Moot.

(Anonymous)

2007-08-11 06:36 am (UTC)

Kind of a moot point to argue, because if God was perfect, why would he need to change?

I've heard that thinking requires changes in mental state. So does emotion. Life without change is a very cold, robotic, static affair and can't rightly be called "life" at all.

on second thought...

(Anonymous)

2007-08-11 06:52 am (UTC)

I think you've done more to argue FOR God's case than against it. Having multiple dimensions explains not only how he's beyond time (in congruence with the whole "I AM" part of the bible...) but also omniscient and omnipresent.

I also agree that actions are dictated by time: They take up physical space, so the frame-by-frame example makes sense. However, emotions are not limited by physics, so how can you say that they are limited by time? The conclusion you reached being that someone outside of time has no emotion. The only other possible answer would be that the actions of other people dictate how you feel. I believe that it is possible to love someone in spite of what they do.

Existing Outside of Time

(Anonymous)

2007-10-15 09:59 pm (UTC)

Existence is Relative. Space and Time are Relative. Mind and Body are Relative. Consciousness and Perception are Relative. Birth and Death are Relative. Life is a preparation for Death. Birth is the cause of Death. Thus, if there is no Birth, there can be no Death. What lies beyond Space, Time, Birth and Death? Awareness. But what is Awareness? Awareness is just Awareness. God is Absolute. God is Beyond Relativity. God is Unborn, Uncreated, Beyond Birth and Death, Immortal. God is beyond Space and Time. This can me shown mathematically, with simple numbers. Numbers have relative values. No-one would confuse the value of 2 with the value of 3. God's maths are a little different. According to the Law of Division for Indices: (X raised to the power of N) divided by (X raised to the power of of N) is solved by subtracting the indices, one from the other: N - N = 0 But, any number divided by itself is equal to 1. X to the power of 0 = 1 Now, we can say that 2 = 3 Proof: (2 to the power of 0) = (3 to the power of 0) 1 = 1 Now, if we consider the Logical Set of Infinity to consist only of numbers, i.e. all known and unknown numbers, then everyone of them can be resolved to unity (1) by raising it to the power of 0. Therefore we can say that Infinity raised to the power of 0 is equal to 1. Note; it is impossible to count to the highest number. One would simply keep on counting until one runs out of names for very large numbers. Thus the Logical Set of all known and unknown numbers is Infinity. Infinity can be resolved to Unity. When Infinity is resolved to Unity only One remains. This 1 cannot be resolved into anything else because (1 raised to the power of 0 is equal to 1). So, what is the form of 1? This 1 has no form, yet it has an infinite number of forms: 1, 2, 3 to Infinity How? 1 + 1 = 2 1 + 1 + 1 =3, etc to Infinity If there is only 1, how can one calculate 1 + 1? It is possible to add 1 + 1 because it is mathematically true that (1 is equal to Infinity to the power of 0). Whilst (the Null root of [Infinity to the power of 0] is Infinity). Thus, 1 is simultaneously equal to all possible numbers, including 0. Some schools of thought say that 0 is not a number. If that were true, then any number subtracted from itself would yield a result which is not a number. This is illogical because it is founded upon a category mistake. Numbers belong to the category of numbers. Thus, 0 has to be a number to represent the answer to a sum of subtraction. O is the number which has no value. O is Zero. 1 is Unity. Unity is the product of the Transformative Power of Zero. But Unity and Zero are members of the Logical Set of Infinity. In Relative Numbers, One is finite. It has a definite value. Absolutely, One is Infinite because it is equal to Infinity: Proof: (1 to the power of 0) = ( Infinity to the Power of 0) 1 = 1 1 Unity has an Infinite Value: Infinite Unity. This Infinite Potential represents the Infinite Creativity of God: The One becomes Manifold Manifold Unity is The Creation. Exoterically, 2 is not equal to 3 Esoterically, 2 is equal to 3 Exoterically, all beings are different, they have individuality. Esoterically, all beings are manifest from the One which is present within all beings. The Relative individuality of a being is an image of the Individuality of the One. The Relative Individuality of All Beings is an image of the Individuality of the One. If Satan is Death, then he cannot be the One. The One is Uncreated and Infinite. Satan is conditioned by Birth. The One is Absolute, beyond Time.

i feel out of my league commenting on the thoughts of other who clearly have put more thought into the issue than myself, but is there a possibility of a demension of time above the one we experience, a 3-d time maybe? that would allow for god to change and exist indeffinently would it not?

Ah, but if God created that dimension of time as well as the others, then, God would be 'outside' and eternal to that dimensional, too, so it would not restore its free will or change God's immutability, etc. And, a perfect God would still be beyond change no matter how many dimensions there are.

If the dimension of time you mention exists independently of God (thus allowing god to change, etc), then, it would unfortunately mean that God wasn't the ultimate creator.

It seems to me there is no way out, no matter how many spatial or temporal dimensions we care to imagine!

if god sees all of our dimension as a large sculpture of sorts, couldnt different parts of that "sculpture" cause different emotional responses. Couldnt this mean that god wasnt immutable in every way, but perhaps immutable in the way that he reacts to certain situations?

1. Experience

I like your response, it ties the abstract notion of all creation into terms comparable with human experience. But, know that God's experience of the sculpture of reality would not be like ours. It is omniscience, and knows every detail of the sculpture it made, I do not think that in such a state it would ever feel a phenomenon of "looking" at a particular piece of it, and "then" having an emotional reaction. I think that would only occur if it didn't have an innate knowledge of what it was about to look at; due to its omniscience, any feelings it has to any part of its sculpture would be as eternal as its knowledge of the feature.

2. Immutability

I know what you're saying: a perfect computer's reaction to certain events would be reactions, if they were unchangeably perfect. But that is not God's situation. Events occur in time; reactions to situations only occur if you are a finite being effected by the passage of time. As time for God is part of creation, which God knows inside and out, from beginning to end, there is no appropriate "time" for god to have a reaction to any particular element. All reactions would have been instant the moment that a creator god existed.

I see what you are saying from a time standpoint, if god is immutable and above time, he wouldnt be effected by change in time and thus couldnt change his reactions to suit a situation, because he only has one situation, his immutable existence. I just cant wrap my head around god being more of a truth or entity outside of emotion than a entity with judgement and will of it's own. Since our universe or dimension is subject to the flow of time, isn't it possible that god would only be able to see the part of the sculpture that is coming into existence at a certain time? It would seem to me that his perfection would allow him to be immutable in this case, and still allow him to react to to events. So while the passage of time doesn't change or effect god, he can only see what is happening now. i know there are tons of holes in what I just said, and I am looking forward to your response.

Philosophical contradiction:

I think making God subject to time in the way you say contradicts its omniscience. Imagine if God was subject to time and was omniscient: At any time, looking at a particular piece of the scultpure, God would still (due to omniscience) know every detail that was yet to come, and therefore, would still be a passive observer-creator, all of whose reactions would have already happened. Omniscience would override the time-subjection solution you postulate.

Christian contradiction:

Christians would point out some relevant bits of scripture, such as references to the "book of life" which has peoples' names written in it for all eternity: God is clearly made out to be beyond time and omniscient, knowing precisely which parts of the sculpture would be judged worthy much later on that at the present time.

If god knows every possible outcome, that still maintains his all knowingness, and allows for the free will of each human being, maybe instead of a sculpture, its more of a tree, where time prunes the branches. God can see where every single branch could lead, but our free will in conjunction with time is what prunes decides the actual course of events. If he knows every point of the past and the future, then there is no present. But we experience the present.

I see what you're saying with regards to free will of mankind, and although I'd like to debate those points I think they are best discussed on the God Contradicts Free Will thread instead of here. Please comment there, it could do with some of your intelligent input TBH!

unexplainable due to lack of experience.

(Anonymous)

2008-02-18 01:04 pm (UTC)

Whether we're thinking up an explaination of the universe as one with a creator or without a creator, we meet massive stumbling points (either way).
What i propose is that understanding matters outside of our universe cannot even be attempted by us humans who are locked within it. Take human senses as an example. If someone had never seen before (due to blindness at birth) how would you describe the sensation of sight to them.

continuing from above (posted unfinished by accident)

(Anonymous)

2008-02-18 01:14 pm (UTC)

The answer is you couldn't. Sure you could explain the physical mechanism of vision, but you could never explain what its like to "see". This shows how limited we are in explaining things that are "spiritual" in origin. Outide the universe would be even more inaccesable to our thoughts. Just because we meet walls in trying to explain "everything" doesn't meet we should disregard certain beliefs. I think that it is more likely that there is a God than there not being one, as i dont think our logic (ie. of time etc.) would apply outside of the universe. However the stumbling points in the idea that the universe is here without a creator cannot be mended as our logic applies within the universe...

One Dimension

(Anonymous)

2008-10-22 03:49 pm (UTC)

One Dimension is Absolute.

It is a subject which does not take a predicate. It is void, empty,
beyond conceptualizing.

A theological person would see God as One Dimensional. Absolute, a subject which cannot be predicated because no words or language can predicate it. for this reason, ineffable.

A non-theological person may conclude that Absolute Reality is Void, beyond thinginess. all things, including God are relative. Mahayana Buddhism refers to this One Dimension as Shunyata.

Both the theological person and the non-theological person may experience this Absolute State of One Dimension.

Scientists know it as the Moment before the Big Bang which started the Universe. This unknowable One dimension is the Fundamental void from which The Explosion that caused the Universe to appear came, and where it will return in cyclic dissolution.

Four Dimensional Reality is the Manifestation of the Omnipotent God, omniscient. Well, that is how a theological person may perceive the four dimensional being.

A non-theological person would see the Four Dimensional Being as someone like the Buddha.

The Three Dimensional being is like the worldly human being and the animals, birds and fish.

Whilst worldly knowledge is two-dimensional, limited and perplexed, clouded by ignorance, not knowing how things really are.

Space and Time are Relative and not Absolute. Thus, for worldly human beings, who are bound by Space and Time, three dimensional life is bound by two dimensional ignorance.

But, there is a way of realising the One Pointed State of Mind. It is transcendental. Once it has been achieved, one can become like god or the Buddha, and scan the world with four dimensional Objectivity, free from the limitations of Space and Time.

And the scientific basis for this?

A very detailed commentary and reliable translation is given by BKS Iyengar in his book Light on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. Iyengar was a Master of the Science required for integrating the Three Dimensional Human Being into the One Dimension.

It makes fairly easy reading for English speaking people.

In Sanskrit, the technical name for this One Dimension is Samadhi. It means One-Pointedness. In this state one remains in the present moment, past and future have no relevance, are unmanifest. It is where words collide with their discrete meanings, subjects collide with predicates, objects.

The Christians know it as Atonement. Literally, this word means At-One-Ment with God. The vehicle for this realisation is the atonement for one's sins. Integration with the Absolute One is the spiritual reward.

However, its realisation is only the beginning of the spiritual Path, not the end.














when we sin, we make god unhappy or angry and he decides to punish us for it later, but if god can't change, how does he changes from the state of not being angry to the state of being angry? the answer is simple, god doesn't have to change, he has set the rules, rules that control the universe. so when we sin, the universe automatically acts as it was programmed to do: punishing us for it.making god unhappy, just means provoking one of the universe's subroutines, called the angry god. the same thing goes with anything else.

If god is outside of time and never chages, it could not have created this universe. An action by god would have taken place and thus the god would have changed.

The Four Dimensions and the Immutability of God

(Anonymous)

2010-04-07 06:24 pm (UTC)

If the fourth dimension is really time, how do we aknowledge any existence outside of the four dimensions we know. It is said we exist as a 3D being with awareness of a concept/idea of time. This is because we have an ability to notice changes that appear to be linear and uniderectional. If that direction is our fourth dimension, why are we aware of one instance in that direction? If a being that has that existence, that of a 4D being. Would that being not be ware of of a uniderectional and even maybe linear path it follows? That is if we follow the same logic that brought us to what we call time. If we can create something like a stickman and say it is not expereincing anychange, than we would not be able to see it as it would not be part of our 4th dimensional awareness, that we call time. If there are only 4 dimensions than any being that would exist in that space, it would be as described in this writting. If there are multiple dimensions to existence, than there has to be a way that anything that exists outside of our time, to experience a change in their space.

Exsiting Outside of time

(Anonymous)

2011-05-04 07:48 am (UTC)

First let me say that i enjoyed reading your posts and I myself have had similar ideas regarding the complexity/paradoxes concerning God.

But in your Post for : "The Four Dimensions and the Immutability of God" under Existing Outside of Time you said "but such a being lives in a sad state of eternal immutability. "

Sadness or a "sad state" is not possible for a perfect God.

Re: Exsiting Outside of time

vexen

2011-05-05 04:16 pm (UTC)

It means sad from the point of view of a conscious moral observer (i.e., me).

Thanks,you made many things simple to understand. Could you for moment consider this line of thought? What if a being existing in a "higher" dimension can enter and exit a "lower" dimension at will? What if God who is beyond time can enter and exit the time bound world and can choose to experience it at will? Then that would mean He exists at 2 levels at the same time since He cannot "stop existing" in His beyond time existence. It would also necessitate a third level, the "essence connection" between the other two Persons. This would mean He exists in 3 levels: The eternal beyond time existence, the second or the Person in the time bound existence and the Essential convector between the two or the Third Person. this ties in perfectly withe Father, Son Jesus and Holy Spirit description of the Bible. And yes, I am a Christian and I enjoyed your post tremendously. thank. :)

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