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vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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The Number 12: Disciples, Tribes and the Zodiac

"The Divine Number 12: 12 Gods, 12 Disciples, 12 Tribes and the Zodiac" by Vexen Crabtree (2007)):

The conclusion reads (briefly; many interesting tid-bits are iterated through first!):

When you see the number twelve, watch out. If the number is employed in a practical sense to divide time, measurements, or angles, then the chances are it makes awesome mathematical sense to utilize such a factorable number as the number twelve. But if you see it used in a superstitious, religious, magical, paranormal, holy or weird way, be warned that it is based on ancient sun-worship, star warship, and ridiculous astrology. As a species we have been using it to divide the solar realm into twelve divisions, assuming that each one is ruled by a personification, a god, a divine being, a teacher, a prophet or a son of the sun. Now we understand what stars, planets and stellar objects are, it makes no sense to retain the mystical, nonsensical connotations of the 'holy', 'perfect', 'divine' or 'special' number 12. Such superstitions have made their way into major religions; there are 12 tribes of Israel as founded by the 12 sons of Jacob, the 12 disciples of Mithras and Christ, the 12 Gods of Olympus and according to Shi'a Muslims, 12 successors to Muhammad. The number 12 is useful because we use a base 10 numbering system (using 10 digits: 0123456789). It makes no sense to say that Gods would use a base 10 numbering system: Therefore gods would not divide the skies, their sons, their chosen ones or the message into twelve parts just because we have ten fingers! So applaud the usefulness of number 12... but watch out for those who are deluded by the pagan, irrational, magical and nonsensical claims made about it! It is, after all, only a number.


12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-05 11:58 pm (UTC)

I really don't understand the point of what you are getting at with the number 12. However, the 12 Tribes of Israel are REAL, even if you don't believe in God. They are Jacob's 12 sons, which are the 12 Tribes of Israel. They EXIST historically. Actually, the perfect number of God is 7, not 12. Also, the 12 Tribes of Israel, the land of Israel and the Jewish people are VERY important to God, because Heaven has the 12 tribes all over it. This is why: Revelation 21:10-14

"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heavem from God. It shone like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with TWELVE gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the TWELVE tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had TWELVE foundations, and on them were the names of the TWELVE apostles of the Lamb (Jesus)."

Ever notice how the whole world is focused on Israel and what happens there??? Here are some helpful hints: God made the Jewish people, starting with Abraham, His chosen people. He made eternal covenants with them. Jesus was Jewish, from the line of David. Jesus (the Jewish Mesiah), is the son of God that He sent to pay for all of humanity's sin. So, the Jews and their land are very important to God. Be VERY careful of how you treat the Jews and the land God gave them. For God said in Genesis 12:1-3

"The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you, I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU, AND WHOEVER CURSES YOU I WILL CURSE."

Got to love the Jews! Praise the Lord!

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-06 06:12 am (UTC)

The 12 sons of Jacob are mythical.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-07 02:11 am (UTC)

Prove that they are "mythical."

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-07 06:17 am (UTC)

According to Sherwin Wine, the major exponent of Humanistic Judaism, the traditional conception of Jewish history is mistaken. In his view, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never existed. Furthermore, the Exodus account is a myth: 'There is no historical evidence to substantiate a massive Hebrew departure from the land of the Pharaohs. As far as we can surmise, the Hebrew occupation of the hill country on both sides of the Jordan was continuous. The 12 tribes never left their ancestral land, never endured 400 years of slavery, and never wandered the Sinai desert.' Moreover, Moses was not the leader of the Hebrews, nor did he compose the Torah. In this light, it is an error to regard the biblical account as authoritative; rather it is a human record of the history of the Israelite nation, the purpose of which is to reinforce the faith of the Jewish nation.

"Encyclopedia of New Religions" by Prof. Christopher Partridge, p118




Other historians such as Prof. Bart Ehrman, etc, have also pointed out that there is little historical evidence behind such symbolic stories in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-09 10:59 pm (UTC)

I would bet that Sherwin Wine is "secular" and DOES NOT believe in God. Mr. Wine is not God.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2008-10-17 09:34 am (UTC)

You asked for evidence, and there it is, in a professional book on comparative religion by one scholar, commenting positively on the views of another. Whether or not any of them believe in God does not change the historical evidence as to whether or not the 12 tribes of Israel were real. They are a symbolic part of mythology, and will remain that way unless you can find historical evidence to the contrary.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2012-09-13 01:24 am (UTC)

To sum all this up check out hebrew israelites.org


and

israelite heritage.com


I am sure it will be painful for you to see, but watch it anyway and find some crapy book to dispute it.

It is simple, obey the ten commandments
follow the dietary laws
pray for israel

and live your life, no religion involved

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2012-09-13 05:45 am (UTC)

No religion involved? So then you don't have to obey the ten commandments (half of which are religious, not ethical), and don't have to follow the (religious) dietary laws, and don't have to pray (which is religious). So what was the point of your message if no religion is involved?

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-07 02:47 am (UTC)

Let me ask you this, if you say the 12 sons of Jacob are "mythical," do you also believe that Jesus never existed either??? And, if your answer is yes to all of the above, I would then ask you if you also think "Muhammad, the so-called "prophet" of the Muslims, never existed either and was "mythical." Which would lead me to believe that you don't think Abraham ever existed either. And, if that's so, you need to make a trip to Israel (me and my husband did) and tell me why so many places, tombs, etc. that are mentioned in the Bible ACTUALLY exist. I mean the land of Israel exists and it's mentioned in the Bible. I don't mean to get off track, are you one of those who believe there is no "absolute truth." And, if so, if there is no "absolute truth", then how can it be "absolutely true" that there is NO "absoulte truth?"

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-07 06:28 am (UTC)

1. Correct: No 12 sons of Jacob. It is a mythical, pagan tradition to separate God's domains into 12 because ancient astrologers' first divided the stars into 12 zodiacs, based on certain heavenly bodies they could sometimes see, such as Mars.

2. Yes: "Jesus did not exist" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

3. Muhammad definately DID exist; he and a band of early Muslims did wage war on their neighbouring pagans, and were often victorious (or sneaky). There are multiple recorded sources on both sides (i.e., Muslim and Pagan) documenting the rise of the Muslims and specifically talking about Muhammad. These accounts were largely created during Muhammad's time; i.e., there is genuine historical evidence. Whereas for Jesus and Jacob, there is no evidence for their existence, and specific evidence that casts doubt on their existence.

4. Jenny Roberts in "Bible Facts" does indeed go on such a tour of Biblical holy places; many are real places although moden-day equivalents sometimes only share the name, and not the actual physical location, of their forebears. The Bible is not a completely made-up fiction; there are elements of truth, but the major characters are often symbolic. This is simply a result of the psuedopigraphical, highly symbolic (i.e., word games; which we today completely miss), and dramatic, way in which mid-early Jews wrote.

5. I believe in absolute truth. "Subjectivism and Phenomenology" by Vexen Crabtree (2000). And I believe that in the search for truth, evidence is the guard against irrational wish-fulfilment. Doesn't it say something that theist Christians in Christian lands think that the Christian God is true, while theist Muslims in Muslim lands think the Muslim God is true, whilst atheist Lao Tze and Dao adherents in the East, think their own beliefs are true? If religions were true, the same things would be consistently discovered, and stories wouldn't be passed around like... well, stories.
Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to persuaded only to the extent to which that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever.
"The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason" by Sam Harris, p19

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-09 11:04 pm (UTC)

Well, the true Christian is given the power of God to believe, because without it, there is no way to believe it! Kind of like you and all other secularist. I use to not believe ... no one convinced me to believe or "shoved it on me,"; just one day God entered my every day life and invaded it ... I thank God He did. :>

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-10 02:19 am (UTC)

If Abraham did not exist, then why do the Muslims claim him to their father, as do the Jews???? Well, it's because he was the father of both the Jews and the Arabs! Abraham first had Ishmael (son of Hagar and Abraham). You see, God promised Abraham and Sarah they would have ason who would be a blessing to all mankind (Isaac). However, although they believed God, when 10 years had passed and they still did not have a son, they "thought" God might intend for them to have their promised son another way. So, taking things into their own hands instead of waiting and having faith in God's promise (like all good Christians do every now and then), Sarah told him to have sex with Hagar, their Egyptian handmaiden, and have a child with her. Well, Hagar got pregnant and had Abraham's son, whom they called Ishmael. However, God did give Abraham and Sarah the "promised" son after Ishmael, whom they named Isaac. About the time Ishmael was about 13 years of age, Ishmael began to "resent" Isaac because he knew that he was the son God was going to make a blessing and inherent all the promises of God. God did not tell Abraham and Sarah to take things into their own hands and have their own son and God let them suffer the consequences of their actions. Hence, that is the beginning of the Arab/Jewish conflict that is going on to this day. So, there's the proof they share the same ancesteral father (and both claim him as so). This proves the existance of Abraham. And as far as Judiaism and Christianity being two "different" religions is false. Because if you read Romans 11:19 "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." The gentiles, all non-jewish people, were grafted into the Jewish promises and blessings of God through the Jewish Mesiah, Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Jews and gentile "believers" believe in the same Jewish God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Praise the Lord! Give those who have ears to hear and those who have eyes to see! (I know, you don't get that). Don't worry, you are in my prayers every day Vexen. I love you Vexen ... oh, don't get grossed out, it's "agape" love ... I love you with the Agape love of God. I care about your "eternal" destiny whether you disagree with me or not. :> You see, that's what God really does do for you after you are "saved," ... he just puts a "Supernatural" love for all humanity in your heart. He puts a deep love for "sinful" humanity in your heart (because EVERYONE sins); however, you end up loving the "sinner" and HATING the "sin."

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2012-08-27 09:36 am (UTC)

Very true and well said :)

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2012-09-13 12:55 am (UTC)

I Am sorry but your information is not accurate. Jacob did have 12 sons and they are the chosen people of the most high. The messiyah whose name is actually Yahoshua/Yeshua was a hebrew. Many people call the people of the most high jews. They are hebrew israelites, not jews. Moses was a hebrew. The hebrew israelites were taken captive into slavery, for disobeying the convenant they made with the most high.

hebrew israelites.org and israelite heritage.com

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2008-10-11 09:14 pm (UTC)

In the Ancient World, numbers were used symbolically.



Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2008-10-15 08:58 am (UTC)

Jesus' Historical Line goes back to Abraham in three numerical sets of 14

14 x 3 = 42 (4 + 2) = 6 Sixpointed Star of David

1 x 4 = 4

4 + 4 + 4 = 12 Disciples.

The thing about the 12 Disciples is that through Jesus, 12 ordinary, mundane men became manifest as Agents of the Divine Word.

It is absurd to think of Transcendental God making decisions, rationalising things or deducing things or inferring things. There were 12 Disciples according to His Divine Will, which means there were neither Eleven or Thirteen Disciples. But, with the Teacher, they did make up a group of Thirteen Extraordinary Men. Jesus, however was Supramundane, Divine and Deathless, a Child of the Light, born of the Spirit and not human sperm.

13 ( 1 + 3 ) = 4

Satan is defeated in Four Apocalyptic Battles which are spiritual wars within a person.

One surrenders his self to God and Jesus enters his body.

The Four Battles Commence.

When the person emerges victoriously from these Four Battles with Satan he will know that his former self is no more and that he has become God, returned to source, the Creator.

In reality, he is not God the Creator, but he has become One with God. He has become Deathless. But, he will still pass away at the end of his life. But Death will not take him, he will exit through an alternative door.

Christians seem to interpret the Resurrection of Jesus as him overcoming Death so that they can live in ease and comfort for Eternity. Reality is not like that. The buck stops with the individual, what he wins is beyond anything that this mundane world can offer.






Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2008-10-17 09:38 am (UTC)

This post makes no sense, and is a desperate piece of number-bashing. These types of number coincidences and convuluted pieces of logic can be performed on any number, on any text.

I have deleted your multiple entries on Brahmanism and Hinduism, as none of it had anything to do with the religious symbolism of the number 12, which is what this forum is for.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2008-10-22 02:31 pm (UTC)

Brahmanism and Hinduism

Please accept my apologies if you find the deleted items to be off
topic.

With respect, I am not desperate. Nor do I blindly bash numbers.

I use numbers most precisely as a means to understanding things. I cannot write logically since I am uneducated.


Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2008-10-24 09:34 am (UTC)

The Six-Pointed Star of David contains the 12 symbols of the 12 Tribes of Israel.

The star is of two inverted equilateral triangles. Together, they form 12 smaller, equilateral triangles.

The Star of David is an emblem of the Unity of the Jewish People.

Number Language: emblematic numbers predate Aristotelian Logic. They have a sacred history, and their usage was oral not textual.

Astrology: for a more balanced understanding of Astrology, I refer you to a book entitled "Tibetan Astrology" by Philip Cornu

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-57062-963-1.cfm

Whilst this book may appear to be off-topic, the Western reader has a problem addressing authentic Jewish Scriptures. The Assyrian form of Hebrew characters is used for popular speech and is used in printing, etcetera. The Rabbinic form of Hebrew characters is used by scholars. Hebrew is an Afro-Asiatic language. It ceased to exist as a spoken language about 250BC and was reborn as a modern language in the 19th century. Hebrew words have only consonants and no vowels. It is written from right to left. According to Kenneth Katzner ( the Languages of the World), it is considered to be impossible for anyone who is unfamiliar with the language to know how to pronounce a Hebrew word from the way it was written. Thus, Hebrew is an esoteric language.

The Three divisions of the Hebrew Bible are called Tanach. The Hebrew word 'Tanach' has three letters, each letter is a symbol for one division of the Bible. Each letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is assigned a number. Thus the three consonants TNCH can be assigned a symbolic, numerical code:

T has the number 9
N has the number 50
CH has the number 8

Thus, 9508 means Tanach, the Three Divisions of the Bible.

In the contexts of the vastness of time and the vastness of space and the vastness of the mind, man defers to figurative language and not the literal language of logic and statistics. When emblems touch ground with fantasy, fiction is produced. When emblems touch ground with reality, reality is reproduced linguistically, as in poetry.

Context: if an ancient text is using numbers symbolically, it is deferring to figurative language and not Logic. Figurative language is intuitive. It addresses reality in a vastly different way to Logic.

The sacred and traditional way of approaching astrology is not through the usage of Logic and Statistics. Modern Critical Scholarship may have valuable things to say about the modern world. But, its views on the Ancient world are distorted.

Protocol: These ancient subjects are still extant but one must follow sacred protocols. For example, when one is a guest in another's home, one does not just help himself to whatever his host has to offer, he politely asks for permission. All human beings are guests in the House of God. Therefore, it is by God's discretion does one gain access to Sacred Knowledge. The traditional way of making a petition to God is through a Divine Agent, aka as a bone fide Holy Man.

Access to the Kingdome

The kingdom is in one's heart. The journey to Eden is within.

Education in the ancient world was not as widespread today. It is very doubtful that the mass of ordinary people could logically analyse text because they were illiterate. An emblem such as the Star of David would be intuitively understood by all of the Jewish people, no need for logical parsing of the geometrical forms or testing them against one's own scepticism in the delusion that this methodology is somehow more authentic.






Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-06 06:16 am (UTC)

Well if we judge by what *happens* in Israel, then I conclude that your God is actually an evil god of war, not a good god of love, and I suggest you turn your back on it.

Secondly, there is *always* going to be a flare-up point somewhere in the world... are you saying that wherever that is, you can conclude the local religion is the true one? A little arbitrary, don't you think!

Thirdly, you said there are "12" in Heaven BECAUSE of what it says in Revelations. That makes no sense, because Heaven and God's plan would have existed for an eternity before Revelations was even written. You appear to have your cause and effect the wrong way round!

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-07 02:37 am (UTC)

First, God revealed His plan by giving us the Bible to read. That's how He lets all of us know Him and His plan. Why He did not choose another way to let us know, I have no idea. However, I'm not God and I wasn't actually "consulted" by God on ways He could do it. You see, you have a LOW or no view of God. I have a HIGH view of God and don't question Him or His ways (Don't give me a lecture on why I should "question" God because I use to in my unbelief, but now, by the Grace of God, I believe). Yes, there are wars, etc. all around the world; however, everyone pays more attention when it is going on in Israel. Israel is about the size of Rhode Island in America and is the most "contested" land on earth. Just open your mind a little bit and try (I know it's a stretch for you) to "wonder" why that is. I mean the United Nations from day one when God put the Jews back in the land in 1948 has been AGAINST Israel and so has much of the rest of the world with the exception of the United States and England ... and even they waiver every now and then. Why is that???? It is because Satan (Yes, he is alive and well) knows the Jewish people are God's chosen and God made "eternal" convenants with them. So, Satan thinks if he "kills" every Jew on earth, He wins and thwarts God's plan. That's why, from the beginning, the Jewish people have been the most "persecuted," disliked, put to death, and abused people in history, starting with the Egyptians who enslaved them. And, lastly, the reason there is always "war" in Israel is because of the facts I've stated above.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-07 06:35 am (UTC)

Er... it was the United Nations that created Israel; the UN has always defended strongly the right for Israel to exist.

OK, so, by your evidence you are saying that Judaism is true? Because most Israelis are Jews. Many are secular atheists or Muslims... not even 2% of Israel is Christian... how are your comments supposed to convince me that Christian stories are true, as opposed to Jewish or Muslim ones? I think your own argument is evidence against Christianity being right!

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-09 11:11 pm (UTC)

Because as a true born-again Christian, God has put a DEEP LOVE for the Jewish people in my heart. The WHOLE BIBLE, Old and New Testaments, under the inspiration of God, were written by JEWS. It is a totally Jewish book. JESUS WAS A JEW. The Christian and Jewish God is the SAME God! The Muslim GOd is a MOON GOD. You need to read the book "Why I left Jihad" by Walid Shoebat ... and EX-Muslism Palestinian Terrorist. He will spell it all out for you. Here, and absolute Jew-hating Muslim, By the Grace of God and against ALL ODDS, is born from above (born-again) and God puts a DEEP LOVE for the Jewish people in His heart and now He speaks out against the Palenstinian (Muslim) hatred of the Jews and is trying to evangelize his Muslim family and friends. I can only sum it up this way, talk to any TRUE born-again Christian, and he or she will tell you how God radically changed their lives for the GOOD. Know one can do that EXCEPT God. He did it in my life and the lives of my Christian friends.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-10 04:34 pm (UTC)

So, in other words, you had a mental episode?

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-11 01:31 am (UTC)

Ha Ha! Very funny. NO, I did not have a "mental episode." I'm a very sane and normal member of society. God just changed my heart and life.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel - And the UN

(Anonymous)

2007-09-09 11:32 pm (UTC)

You need to do some research into the voting record of the UN and how they have "sanctioned" and "punished" Israel MORE than any other country. You will then have a different view of the UN. THEY ARE NOT Israel's friend. And, also, Judaism is the forerunner to Christianity. One in the same belief in the same God. However, the Jewish people (Not all of them), via God, for reasons as an un-believer have no chance of understanding, has temporarily blinded the Jewish people and cannot "believe in Jesus" at this present time. However, because of God's eternal plan and love for them, covenants with the Jewish people, will pour out His spirit (The Holy Spirit) on them at the "appointed time" and they will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You also need to research on the "amazing" love God has put in the hearts of born-again Christians for the Jewish people like NEVER before in History. I believe that is the beginning of God pouring out His spirit on them. Me and my husband will be going to Israel in 2008 with a Christian Missionary Group and living among the Jewish people and just "loving on them" and to let them know we are Christians who are on their side when the world is against them. We will feed their poor and repair their homes, etc., and, by the Grace of God, we get to share Jesus with them, we will do so. But our main purpose is to let them know yes, we are Christians, but that we love them immensely because we thank them for the scriptures and for the JEWISH Mesiah, Jesus Christ.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel - And the UN

vexen

2007-09-10 04:36 pm (UTC)

Judaism is also the forerunner of Islam and the Baha'i Faith... but it doesn't make them true, just like it doesn't make Christianity true just to say it emerged from earlier religion. All religions have done!

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel - And the UN

(Anonymous)

2007-09-11 01:42 am (UTC)

You keep forgetting Islam and "whatever" that other faith is are SATANIC and not of God. When I say the "forerunner" to Christianity, the Jewish Prophets, etc. in the old testament, especially Isaiah 53, "perfectly" predict the coming of Jesus. The scriptures don't mention "Mohammad" or any other "false god" in any way, shape or form. Also, the Jewish ceremony of "sacrificing" the "perfect and spotless" lamb so they would be forgiven of sin (temporarily) was a shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross (the perfect sacrifice) for our sins. Judaism POINTS to Jesus (Christianity) in all their scriptures. I've read the old Testament and I don't see "anything" that would point to the Muslim religion or any other one. However, as for Ishmael and his "descendants", the Arabs, God did say they would be like "a wild man" never to be tamed and ALWAYS at emnity with their brother (the Jews). Now, gee, you don't have to be a genius to figure out that was written about 6,000 years ago and is true to this day! The Jews and their "half-brothers", the Arabs, DO NOT get along. The Jews call the Arabs their "brothers" because they and the Arabs know their ancesteral father is Abraham. However, unfortunately, the Arabs have been influenced by Satan and seeking to destroy EVERY Jew.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-07 07:02 am (UTC)

If it was good for us to know something, and God wanted us to know it, then, God would tell everyone the basic facts straight into everyone's head, and there would be no need for translation errors, scribe errors, endless copying of ancient texts, cultural differences of word usage, etc... that is, if God wanted us all to know certain things.

But I think, if there was a God, it wouldn't really care what our beliefs are. Why would it? It would know and deeply understand the reasons why everyone comes to believe certain things, and comes not to believe other things. With 99% of the Human population, beliefs occurr because of where in the world you are born. God knows this... if it was wrong, it would educate everyone fairly and equally. In other words, if there is a God, it appears to WANT everyone to have different beliefs.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-09 11:36 pm (UTC)

You just don't know God. That's okay ... I didn't know Him until 7 years ago. You cannot possibly understand Him until you know Him.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2008-10-22 02:50 pm (UTC)

Ahem, a ittle off topic.






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