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Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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The Number 12: Disciples, Tribes and the Zodiac

"The Divine Number 12: 12 Gods, 12 Disciples, 12 Tribes and the Zodiac" by Vexen Crabtree (2007)):

The conclusion reads (briefly; many interesting tid-bits are iterated through first!):

When you see the number twelve, watch out. If the number is employed in a practical sense to divide time, measurements, or angles, then the chances are it makes awesome mathematical sense to utilize such a factorable number as the number twelve. But if you see it used in a superstitious, religious, magical, paranormal, holy or weird way, be warned that it is based on ancient sun-worship, star warship, and ridiculous astrology. As a species we have been using it to divide the solar realm into twelve divisions, assuming that each one is ruled by a personification, a god, a divine being, a teacher, a prophet or a son of the sun. Now we understand what stars, planets and stellar objects are, it makes no sense to retain the mystical, nonsensical connotations of the 'holy', 'perfect', 'divine' or 'special' number 12. Such superstitions have made their way into major religions; there are 12 tribes of Israel as founded by the 12 sons of Jacob, the 12 disciples of Mithras and Christ, the 12 Gods of Olympus and according to Shi'a Muslims, 12 successors to Muhammad. The number 12 is useful because we use a base 10 numbering system (using 10 digits: 0123456789). It makes no sense to say that Gods would use a base 10 numbering system: Therefore gods would not divide the skies, their sons, their chosen ones or the message into twelve parts just because we have ten fingers! So applaud the usefulness of number 12... but watch out for those who are deluded by the pagan, irrational, magical and nonsensical claims made about it! It is, after all, only a number.


Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-07 02:47 am (UTC)

Let me ask you this, if you say the 12 sons of Jacob are "mythical," do you also believe that Jesus never existed either??? And, if your answer is yes to all of the above, I would then ask you if you also think "Muhammad, the so-called "prophet" of the Muslims, never existed either and was "mythical." Which would lead me to believe that you don't think Abraham ever existed either. And, if that's so, you need to make a trip to Israel (me and my husband did) and tell me why so many places, tombs, etc. that are mentioned in the Bible ACTUALLY exist. I mean the land of Israel exists and it's mentioned in the Bible. I don't mean to get off track, are you one of those who believe there is no "absolute truth." And, if so, if there is no "absolute truth", then how can it be "absolutely true" that there is NO "absoulte truth?"

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

vexen

2007-09-07 06:28 am (UTC)

1. Correct: No 12 sons of Jacob. It is a mythical, pagan tradition to separate God's domains into 12 because ancient astrologers' first divided the stars into 12 zodiacs, based on certain heavenly bodies they could sometimes see, such as Mars.

2. Yes: "Jesus did not exist" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

3. Muhammad definately DID exist; he and a band of early Muslims did wage war on their neighbouring pagans, and were often victorious (or sneaky). There are multiple recorded sources on both sides (i.e., Muslim and Pagan) documenting the rise of the Muslims and specifically talking about Muhammad. These accounts were largely created during Muhammad's time; i.e., there is genuine historical evidence. Whereas for Jesus and Jacob, there is no evidence for their existence, and specific evidence that casts doubt on their existence.

4. Jenny Roberts in "Bible Facts" does indeed go on such a tour of Biblical holy places; many are real places although moden-day equivalents sometimes only share the name, and not the actual physical location, of their forebears. The Bible is not a completely made-up fiction; there are elements of truth, but the major characters are often symbolic. This is simply a result of the psuedopigraphical, highly symbolic (i.e., word games; which we today completely miss), and dramatic, way in which mid-early Jews wrote.

5. I believe in absolute truth. "Subjectivism and Phenomenology" by Vexen Crabtree (2000). And I believe that in the search for truth, evidence is the guard against irrational wish-fulfilment. Doesn't it say something that theist Christians in Christian lands think that the Christian God is true, while theist Muslims in Muslim lands think the Muslim God is true, whilst atheist Lao Tze and Dao adherents in the East, think their own beliefs are true? If religions were true, the same things would be consistently discovered, and stories wouldn't be passed around like... well, stories.
Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to persuaded only to the extent to which that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever.
"The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason" by Sam Harris, p19

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-09 11:04 pm (UTC)

Well, the true Christian is given the power of God to believe, because without it, there is no way to believe it! Kind of like you and all other secularist. I use to not believe ... no one convinced me to believe or "shoved it on me,"; just one day God entered my every day life and invaded it ... I thank God He did. :>

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2007-09-10 02:19 am (UTC)

If Abraham did not exist, then why do the Muslims claim him to their father, as do the Jews???? Well, it's because he was the father of both the Jews and the Arabs! Abraham first had Ishmael (son of Hagar and Abraham). You see, God promised Abraham and Sarah they would have ason who would be a blessing to all mankind (Isaac). However, although they believed God, when 10 years had passed and they still did not have a son, they "thought" God might intend for them to have their promised son another way. So, taking things into their own hands instead of waiting and having faith in God's promise (like all good Christians do every now and then), Sarah told him to have sex with Hagar, their Egyptian handmaiden, and have a child with her. Well, Hagar got pregnant and had Abraham's son, whom they called Ishmael. However, God did give Abraham and Sarah the "promised" son after Ishmael, whom they named Isaac. About the time Ishmael was about 13 years of age, Ishmael began to "resent" Isaac because he knew that he was the son God was going to make a blessing and inherent all the promises of God. God did not tell Abraham and Sarah to take things into their own hands and have their own son and God let them suffer the consequences of their actions. Hence, that is the beginning of the Arab/Jewish conflict that is going on to this day. So, there's the proof they share the same ancesteral father (and both claim him as so). This proves the existance of Abraham. And as far as Judiaism and Christianity being two "different" religions is false. Because if you read Romans 11:19 "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." The gentiles, all non-jewish people, were grafted into the Jewish promises and blessings of God through the Jewish Mesiah, Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Jews and gentile "believers" believe in the same Jewish God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Praise the Lord! Give those who have ears to hear and those who have eyes to see! (I know, you don't get that). Don't worry, you are in my prayers every day Vexen. I love you Vexen ... oh, don't get grossed out, it's "agape" love ... I love you with the Agape love of God. I care about your "eternal" destiny whether you disagree with me or not. :> You see, that's what God really does do for you after you are "saved," ... he just puts a "Supernatural" love for all humanity in your heart. He puts a deep love for "sinful" humanity in your heart (because EVERYONE sins); however, you end up loving the "sinner" and HATING the "sin."

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2012-08-27 09:36 am (UTC)

Very true and well said :)

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel

(Anonymous)

2012-09-13 12:55 am (UTC)

I Am sorry but your information is not accurate. Jacob did have 12 sons and they are the chosen people of the most high. The messiyah whose name is actually Yahoshua/Yeshua was a hebrew. Many people call the people of the most high jews. They are hebrew israelites, not jews. Moses was a hebrew. The hebrew israelites were taken captive into slavery, for disobeying the convenant they made with the most high.

hebrew israelites.org and israelite heritage.com

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