From: yellarat	Date: July 8th, 2002 03:18 am (UTC)		(Link)
	ooh, lots of Vexen;-}

yeah, me usly uses the swasything for its runic qualitys and the cross not at all, though at the mo me trying II work oot the gay pride logo, pentangle and facism in genual

good luck with that, though..?

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 22nd, 2002 08:56 am (UTC)		(Link)
i agree with almost everything

Calling Christ an asshole took things a little too far. Yes the cross is a symbol of the same things, however it is not viewed as the same type of thing. I wish I could explain the hypocracy is this but I cant. All I know is the swastika should no longer be viewed as a symbol of hatred, but as a reminder of the people who died to disillusion our ignorance. Much the same way the cross symbolized the absolutuion of sin. Hopefully in a thousand years it will be done as such.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 12th, 2006 04:23 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: i agree with almost everything

"The swastika is now a universal symbol for hate and racism" is simply untrue. Go to Asia especially and you will find it everywhere in daily use. It is only a symbol of hate etc in some parts of the European population. Even then, Europeans make up only about 10% of the world's population. Hardly universal.

FFF
Dirk
www.neopax.com

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 17th, 2002 04:38 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Are you really serious??? This is a joke! How old are you? Do you listen to other's opinions, I mean, have you ever had an intellect conversation with somebody about comparing the cross to a swastika!! I doubt it because you seem so ignorant. Symbols don't even mean anything unless we give that power to them!! I really feel bad for you bacause you are so misinformed. I just wonder where your mindless opinion came from. Really, you just seem like a very weak misinformed person and I really hope you can open your eyes someday, you obviously have an opinion, so why don't you do something worthy with it. I think you should do something a little more productive with your time.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 10th, 2005 07:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Your a christian arent you? Only a Christian can ignore the truth when it stares them in the face.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 12th, 2003 03:53 pm (UTC)		(Link)
man shut the fuck up

yo who the fuck are you to criticize christianity you lil bitch ass nazi da christian cross is a sign of evil? man shut the fuck up you hitlers grandson yo watch when your ass hit hell yoo and your hitler nazi family all can join and burn forever in da river of fire you custee lil christian hater man shut the fuck up.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 26th, 2003 02:05 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: man shut the fuck up

nice to see you bothered to read what the author wrote. What an Idiotic response to a thought-provoking piece.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 30th, 2003 10:22 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Cross evil?

You wrote that more people in history have died as a result of christianity. But 4 million people did not die because they were simply different. The nazi's adorned with swatsika's murdered people simply because they were different, because they had different beliefs , because they weren't blonde haired and blue eyed. No christian ever tried to create a super race with a swatsika everywhere except his forhead. Just because a swatsika hasn't always been a symbol of evil it is now because a man that murder 4 million men women and children made it that way.
And now for what you said about "what about the men who lost their lives in the crusades" Yes many many men lost their lives in the crusades, but nobody was forced to go into the crusades. They went because they believed that if they died in battle they would go straight to heaven. Before you speak you need to read up on your history. But by saying that a cross is evil why don't you go and say that a turban is evil because 1500 people died on 9/11 because of middle eastern men. And why don't you go say that a pyramid is evil because jewish slaves were forced to build those pyramids and temples. And while your at it say that a whip is evil because black slaves were forced to work in brutal conditions.


"But what about the many people who died because they did not believe in that asshole the christians worship?"

People are persecuted everywhere for they're beliefs in different things. But never was their an organized government designed to exterminate groups of people, jews, gays, gypsies, and poles. And what was the symbol that adorned the clothing of the people who did this? a swatsika.


In present days how many people really know the background of a swatsika? Not many. Especially not the illiterate rednecks of small southern towns who wear white pointed hats and little white dresses with red swatsikas on their shoulders. I don't think when they burn crosses in the yards of people who are simply different , the swatsika on their cute little dresses means luck and all that other bullshit.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 20th, 2008 08:57 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Cross evil?

"They went because they believed that if they died in battle they would go straight to heaven."
How do you know that? where you there?
"People are persecuted everywhere for they're beliefs in different things. But never was their an organized government designed to exterminate groups of people, jews, gays, gypsies, and poles. And what was the symbol that adorned the clothing of the people who did this? a swatsika. "
BUT NEVER WAS THEIR AN ORGANIZED GOVERNMENT DESIGNED TO EXTERMINATE GROUPS OF PEOPLE¿!?! WHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 17th, 2003 11:29 am (UTC)		(Link)

Sir, As far as the people of India are concerned , the swastika is their good luck symbol and a religious part of their culture. As for me and other people of Indian origin, it is a wonderful symbol that has fascinated civilizations since its diffusion from India in ancient times. But it actually is older than Indian civilization since it is found in the steppes of Russia and then brought to India. Today everyone is trying to claim it as their own and they are now trying to use it in their culture as a decorative symbol for fashion, tattoos, and other such purposes. Your perception of the swaatika and the cross is grossly inept and misleading. These are two great symbols of Hinduism and Christianity and you have no respect for either one since you brand them as evil, and in doing so you also demean the two religions. These symbols are not sources of evil. The guns that Hitler used are sources of evil not the symbol. So why not condemn the guns and his patent racism? The cross is not evil , it is the Romans who perceived and constructed it to execute their criminals , so why not condemn the Romans? The symbols don't kill , people do and the source of all evil are people with weak,unclear minds who can only resort to the weapons to solve their solutions.

	From: vexen	Date: August 17th, 2003 11:34 am (UTC)		(Link)

We agree that it's people's actions, not the symbols themselves that are "evil".

Your solution is to accept usage of the swastike in popular culture in the West: That is one of the solutions to the contradiction of how the West approaches the symbols of the Cross and the Swastika. That's a fine solution, and one I would support.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 18th, 2003 08:00 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Swatsticross

thank you for making this page, it has opened up my mind a lot more. i am now considering becoming a satanists. fuck god!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: October 30th, 2003 02:11 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Think before you write

I would have finished reading your essay if I dind't have to pray for you first. It was sad to believe that a person in this lifetime could have these thoughts, but I guess you are entitled to your opinion. You can think whatever you want but the reality is that this world will always be impacted by the disgust that the meaning of the swastika brought during the time of the Nazi's. Yes, I understand that it's not what it meant in ancient times but buddy it's modern times and a swastika doesn't mean good luck it means hatred and violance. It is a shame that you would compare the representation of such an evil act with the one of the most holy and impactful symbols of an entire lifetime. Not once has the cross meant something evil and as far as people dying, more people died in the name of the cross, for the cross (can you even comprehend the depth of this?). I have never been more embarrassed of the human race and their incredibly stupid reasoning! May God light your way...

	From: vexen	Date: October 30th, 2003 05:28 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Think before you write

Your reasoning is that because people died for the cross during the crusades, and many other wars, and through the dark ages, that this is somehow better than people fighting for the swastika? Christians killing "pagans" and arabs because they didn't understand them and believed they were unholy, and the Nazis because they believed the rest were equally inferior?

I'm not sure, but I like to think we're past the times where any symbol that represents bigotted closed mindedness to the extend of permissiveness of war, is an acceptable symbol.

I hope one day you'll wake up. "I'll pray for you" :-)

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 3rd, 2003 01:56 pm (UTC)		(Link)

i'm sorry you feel this way towards Christians. Were the crusades right? No, they weren't. Was it right to kill those accused of witchcraft? No, it wasn't. Those were people who mistook the Word of God. Though it does point out witchcraft and any faith not of our God wrong, it also says to love that person. These people were very wrong in what they did. However, please do not judge Christians as a whole. You do not know me, or the Christians i hang out with. We are very caring and loving people. I'm sorry for whatever event in your life happened that you hate Christianity, but I will pray for you.

	From: vexen	Date: November 3rd, 2003 02:20 pm (UTC)		(Link)

The person who I have loved most in the world is a Christian, I don't "hate Christians" just because they have beliefs different to mine. But, nonetheless, the Christian Cross historically has far more blood attached to it than love. And, of the caring and loving people in the world some of them are Christians, I do not deny that.

I haven't had a history of Christianity in my life and have had no personal event that caused me to hate Christianity - I disagree with Christianity for simple logical reasons (I don't believe in God for a start), and I hate the fact that dogmatic religious books are so easily a cause of hate and war.

You know what they say... "Please God, save me from your followers!".

I am a harmless, small person who has a stable and positive life, I do think your prayers would be better suited to those with less than me, or those who act hatefully.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 31st, 2003 03:14 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Thought provoking

First and foremost, I give you credit for creative thinking. There may be many who would not agree with you. A friendly advice - try avoiding calling J.C. an asshole. It doesn't matter what you believe, if you want others to listen to you seriously and you aren't just venting your anger, then you can't afford to put them on defensive unnecesarily. Moreover, Christ himself wasn't directly responsible for the actions of Pizzaro or Cortez or Torqemada or Pacelli. The latter was the pope during WWII and was responsible for seriously undermining Christian opinion against Hitler (see "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell).

I generally agree with your premise that otherwise decent symbols - cross and swastika - may be polluted by the actions of the few. But this is why, I believe, we shouldn't persecute the symbols. To declare cross as the sign of evil would be a victory of corrupt popes, inquisitors and the like over Christ. They would have successfully hijacked a "good symbol". What could be a better way to defeat them than to snatch away the very banners from them. As long as all Christians denounce the actions of these demagogues, declare them as not being true christians and, most importantly, prevent further abuse of their establishment, cross doesn't have to represent anything overwhelmingly evil.

Logically, the same holds for swastika. Although the symbol has been found in many cultures the exact word is actually Sanskrit which was hijacked and eventually defiled by Hitler. Iconography was a great source of power for the nazi movement. So let the decent people around the world - Hindus, native Americans, Greeks - reclaim their symbol and defeat Hitler in one more way. I say yes to swastika but devoid of the Nazi connotations.

To anyone who wants to condemn swastika for eternity, let him remember that while swastika literally means well being ('su'= well + 'asti'= being), cross is a symbol that signifies death. It could have easily been the guillotine or the hangman's noose or the electric chair, for that matter. Moreover, death by crucifixion is infinitely more painful. Can you imagine how weird a cross might look to someone who hasn't heard of Christ or the gospel or is an unbeliever? As they say, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

	From: wesleywildcat84	Date: January 14th, 2004 03:06 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	What do you believe?

You do place up a valid argument, as in, the Swastika may have been something great back in the day, it's not cool that people like Hitler had to go and screw it up, it's not cool that people had to die due to what people did in the name of the Holy Roman Empire.

I forgive your misstep by calling Christ as a-hole, but I guarantee you, he experienced worse, one being that he was killed for nothing wrong, it's just that people wanted him dead, more than a murderer. I hope that eventually the one strong symbol that WWII killed might be cleared, but people are fallible (including me), and sometimes unforgiving. It is my hope that you would be open to forgiving those that have waxed you for your opinion, and the misdeeds of our past. We are sons and daughters of sinners from the beginning, since Adam and Eve. Fortunately, God has enough grace to allow us to be of some use in his overall plan. I won't go preachy and overly theological, but I know that Christ calls us to love and forgive, not to fight and hate. However, like I said, people are sinners that need forgiveness. I hope that if Christians have not been so kind to you, that you find some that show the genuine God-given love they should be displaying. I would like to say that people won't go to hell, but that's a fact I cannot deny, people will suffer, and it is because of what they believe. Love is God, God is Love, why wouldn't his Son be any different? He dead to forgive. In closing.

My question to you dude is, what do you believe? What are you? Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Pagan? Just wondering.

One Love, One God, One Way, Peace.

	From: vexen	Date: January 15th, 2004 02:57 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: What do you believe?

I'm a LaVeyan Satanist, hence my large website about LaVey Satanism...

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 29th, 2004 02:07 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Agreed. A very interesting analysis. I'd like to put forward some points:
What's next? Banning the clergy and allowing nazis to express themselves? I have read mein kampf, so if you have as well, you'll understand the next point.

All I further can say is our dillema right now is public opinion. Public opinion is the result of the tenacious and thorough efforts of the media. If enough people in the media decide to say what you're saying, you'll succeed. According to Hitler, too many Jews controlled the media, so it is their choice of facts that we have to use to form opinions, which leads to this anti-swastika feeling, even though the swastika has much more palatable heritage to claim. Refer to pages 50-80 of mein kampf. for more on this.

Reply to whenkingdomkum@hotmail.com if any of this interests you.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 20th, 2004 02:38 pm (UTC)		(Link)
You could say that Jesus and baphomet are the same

Both are forms of the pentagram both take the sins of the world..
Oh and both are bull-shit jewish christian rubbish.
Theres no God or Satan, grow up and take responsibilty for yourself.
neither have any place in a real world view.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 20th, 2004 02:47 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Oh my dear boy you really are confused..

Jesus still loves you and wants to forgive your sins..
now pray with me "Oh god I'm a bad wicked sinner, a sheep who has strayed into the wrong pasture,please forgive me and come and live in heart..I'll be good from now on and go to church every sunday oh and I'll not have any more fantasy's about little boys bottoms, that wicked uncle Anton lead me astray, and its not my fault honest the devil is to blame not me and Jesus died for my sins..i'll be a good christian now instead of a closet one..I know your real becuse satan told me so now lets make up and be mates again God...now your a born again christian with a whole new life in front of you...you will soon stop lusting after virgins and soon you to will know the real peace of uncle Jesus.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 13th, 2004 06:58 pm (UTC)		(Link)
cross symbols

There are many forms of the cross and all can be used for love
or hate.
Remember, God is in all things.

It is one of the laws of nature -pos and neg-we can't stop it.

Jesus(you called ASSHOLE)did condemn IDOL
(an object of extreme devotion) worship. So he would probably agree with you!

From: azteca21	Date: June 7th, 2004 03:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)
"swasticross" comments by chaos

your whole reasoning for your argument on the swastika vs. the cross is self-contradicting and ignorant. You defend the swastika for its implied statements (good luck, peace, and such), yet degrade the cross which symbolizes similar values. Your argument is superficial and not to be taken seriously. If you would take a closer look, you would see the true symbolism. The "German cross" symbolized peace and good luck. The swastika is a symbol of aggression towards those whom are deemed unfit to walk the earth by the ignorant minds who believe the world is theirs to control. Consider the positioning of the German cross (upright) vs the swastika (tilted). Just like satanic groups use an upside down cross to degrade Godly beliefs, as opposed to the Christian community who value the standard cross to symolize the conventional Christian beliefs. I would invite you to look into the true history and complete implications of cultural symbols before you decide to oppose them or degrade them. Assumptions don't cut it!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 14th, 2004 06:50 pm (UTC)		(Link)

i agree. i read Mein Kampf, and it clearly states that the Swatiska is not a symbol of Nazism, but a symbol of good luck and many wishes. Any narrow minded prick ass son of a bitch who is going to say that the swatsika is a symbol of nazism, look up some fucking greek history...assholes.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 15th, 2004 07:03 pm (UTC)		(Link)
I disagree.

I think destroying these symbols is anti-individual, anti-freedom, and an embrace of "liberalism", "egalitarianism" and "special interest".

I believe that "we" should neither embrace nor destroy these symbols, but for each individual to choose whether or not to embrace or avoid them.

Every Satanist is not for destroying those opinions which do not conform to the liberal, pacifist, egalitarian philosophy.

The Cross and The Swastika were around much longer than Christianity or Nazism, and I look at them for what they truly represent, not what society has forced upon these symbols.

Sincerely,
Belsacrin

From: pinchgut	Date: August 3rd, 2004 10:37 pm (UTC)		(Link)
swastika

You are wrong about the evil of the Swastika under Hitler and how wonderful it is under the Indians of the sub continent.

During the partition of India and Pakistan, over a million Muslems were killed under the Hindus and their banner, which included the Swastika.

Jews, not Hindus own the publishing and media companies and of course their unfortuante plight will always receive the highest priority even though the "gas chamber " story is crap!

As for you comment about Christ being an " asshole", at least he took on the bankers at the temple. Our politicians today crawl to the modern equivelent of the pharisaic moneylenders. People like you complain about it, but I don't see you and yours taking on the banks and Sharonists and neocons!

The Swastika should be protected against vile accusation and it's critics told to shut up. It is typical the innocent suffer because it's convenient not to tackle the truth and bring the liers to book.
The liars are powerful. They are the banks, Sharon, Bush, Kissinger, Brzinski Perle. Mostly Jewish ?


Gavin

From: pinchgut	Date: August 3rd, 2004 10:44 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Further to my comment re Swastika

The Nazis are only as bad as their enemies want you to believe. Truth is the alloies had as many turds as the Nazis. The winner rihts the history!

The Cross as a religious symbol is a Christian symbol of suffering, the cruxifiction. I don't think it was around before hand.

The Swastika was a symbols adopted by Christians after the barbarians converted and took it with them!

	From: vexen	Date: August 11th, 2004 12:23 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Further to my comment re Swastika

Yeah cross was around before Christianity as a symbol of death, resurrection (cycle of nature). Even forms of the crucifix were around, sometimes you'd get a cross with a sheep on the front in some early BCE Roman religions, it's said that this is from where the Christians got their own crucifix - which they didn't start using until 3rd century or so.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 25th, 2004 11:21 am (UTC)		(Link)
Something different...

Tipped over some cows just for a joke and a laugh. Jumped up and grabbed a girraffe, snapped his neck and broke it in half. You talk alot of junk but you was never ill though. I'm strong enough to beat you to death with a feathered pillow. I don't think this guy is well, I'm high as hell. I'll beat you with a live cat while I'm swingin him by his tail. I'll fuckin, I'll fuckin put you nutsack on the shelf by itself and bang them stuffs with a spiked bat, cut your head off and glue it right back and leave you like that.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 19th, 2004 03:12 am (UTC)		(Link)

i concur.



and im jewish..

bitches!!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 6th, 2004 08:11 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I'm allergic to crosses.

*sniffle*

~F

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 13th, 2005 11:16 pm (UTC)		(Link)
A little biased i think...

I can agree to a certain extend but, i do think you are a little biased against Christ.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 19th, 2005 11:23 pm (UTC)		(Link)
LEARN THE FACTS FIRST

What about the millions of Christians that have been murdered by Muslim fanatics since the time of the crusades!

quote:"The cross is the symbol of all that the deranged christians feel is good and holy. But what about the many people who died because they did not believe in that asshole the christians worship? What about the men who lost their lives in the crusades? or the inquisition, or any of the christians other glorified witch hunts and murderous displays of faith"

If you hadn't noticed, current sections of the Muslim community also glorify the killing of non believers (oh and people that commit the deadly sin of listening to music, or wearing makeup)

You seem to think that the actions of the Church a thousand years ago still means that modern Christians are inherantly evil??