From: vexen	Date: September 11th, 2002 03:36 pm (UTC)		(Link)

There are also some responses to this essay in the Live Journal atheist community: Click here to read them

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 7th, 2006 04:12 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Swimming in the sea of uncertainty and misc

Let's face it - this world is an extremely complex system, or a set of complex systems. Our human mind can only focus and process small amounts of information at a time. To get anywhere, with knowledge, people have developed the scientific framework and disciplines. In the end, anything that can be considered as knowledge must be subjected to this scientific framework or it is just speculation. In the end, people will speculate and make assumptions (i.e. beliefs) because it's a lot easier and quicker than trying to work it out within the rigours of science. Also, being certain of something is more comforting to most people than being skeptical. So to shake off their assumptions people must be both willing and capable of thinking hard without jumping to conclusions. More importantly, they must be willing to get out of the religious boat they are in (most people are born into it) and jump in the sea of uncertainty and swim by themselves. Of course, one can easily foresee getting drowned in in, since swimming is an acquired skill.

I will uneasily admit that during certain storms in my life I had a few mouthfuls of water and inflated the religious life vest to help me stay afloat and when the storm subsided I promptly deflated the vest, since my rational mind quickly took over control. Moreover, at one point I think I was getting tired of swimming so I wanted the safety and comfort of a boat but then after reading the Bible and Quran found so many things I couldn't reconcile with, namely intolerance and threats of hellfire (which wasn't actually based on logic but on my conscience). In the end, it seems that I'll be swimming for the rest of my life, however tough it gets and I am resolved not to use the life vest (although don't hold my word for it!).

Anyhow, here is the reason I do not and cannot believe in heaven or hell. I firmly hold that science be used as THE best mechanism for establishing truth (although it's never absolutely permanent). So at this point, we have the accepted laws of physics which cannot be proven to be violated by any miracles (and if you do believe in miracles please stop reading further, a waste of your time really). These laws, apart from quantum physics, work in a deterministic way. So taking quantum physics aside, in a Newtonian universe everything is already pre-destined, including all your electronic impulses in the brain which are effectively your decisions, thus rendering you of free cosmic will. I use the word cosmic, because although there isn't cosmic free will, it is fair to say that our exact actions will be never completely predictable by us, so we will always experience our decisions as free will. OK, so I thought, maybe the free will lies in quantum physics. Maybe our brain can manipulate the uncertainty. But I can immediately see two very strong arguments against it - the uncertainty at the brain level is extremely tiny and even if it was significant quantum physics would only allow it to happen if it was subject to standard random deviation. On the other hand, you can believe that it's not the brain at all which decides upon our actions but our spirit - something which science cannot measure. But that's just equivalent to a continuous miracle.

Another common argument for the existence of the Creator (I have problems with the term God since the term often relates to nothing that we can relate to in this universe) is that anything which exists must have a creator. Science tells us that energy and matter can't be created out of nothing. However, if you follow that argument, you can also claim that there might be a creator behind the Creator. And a creator behind that one. And since this universe is infinite there might actually be an infinite number of creators, each creating the one before. Wow, maybe I just discovered a new religion. Sarcasm aside, gnosticism implies there is God behind the God that created this universe (demi-urge). However, in scientific terms, this is really no different than claiming a single deity.

Enough of my rambling, I find myself quite incoherent at times. I wish I had the time and writing skills of Vexen, but hope that this might ignite some sparks somewhere.

	From: hellbot13	Date: September 16th, 2002 09:47 am (UTC)		(Link)

OMG!!! You have a journal! So cool!!! I saw your sites first, anyway, I totally agree. IMHO people shouldn't go around pretending they know stuff if they don't. The only thing we can really be sure of are facts, not faith...

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 2nd, 2002 05:26 pm (UTC)		(Link)

YOU'RE CRAZY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 2nd, 2002 05:20 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Those three reasons are incredibly stupid.

	From: vexen	Date: November 2nd, 2002 11:33 pm (UTC)		(Link)

A bit like your criticism, then?

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 29th, 2003 10:50 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I agree in full with your reasons for rejecting theism and the theory of a god being the almighty creator, but i also do not agree with your theory of god not being moral, because, like all other things that have to do with god or whatever, how do we know what it's idea of morals are, because they do not have to be the same as ours, as we have evolved we have created our own, y'know.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 20th, 2003 05:36 am (UTC)		(Link)

Like hellbot13 said, we need to look at the facts. Instead of looking at what religions say, look at what hard evidence says about the religions. In almost all cases, religious texts ignore history and just have doctrine. It is impossible to test the reliability of such doctrine and therefore meaningless. Christianity on the other hand, is filled with history, therefore making it testable. The main point of Christianity, what defines your salvation, is testable in that it is the death and resurrection of Christ, an actual event in actual history, the only religion with this ability.

	From: vexen	Date: May 30th, 2003 09:55 am (UTC)		(Link)

Muhammad, an uneducated Arab, received the Holy Book from archangel Gabriel, and his Immams wrote it down, recited in excellent and scholarly arabic, which Muhammad could not have known. This is Islam, founded by actual events in history.

So what do you mean, Christianity is the only religion with a testable history? No offence, but the non-Christians in the pagan world did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and indeed, neither did Christianity itself during the first two centuries, it's only post-Constantine literalist Christianity that has believed in Jesus as a literal figure. Christianity has a more corrupt and false history than Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 30th, 2005 05:17 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Christian History

Sorry to contradict you on a 'fact', but it's simply not true that early Christianity didn't believe in the literally risen Jesus. It's a common falsehood, rooted in gnosticism and very similar to some of the bad history in the Da Vinci Code. (Pete: p_ingleby at yahoo dot com)

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 14th, 2003 06:12 am (UTC)		(Link)
live long satanism!

I personally is a satanism in this world i like THE BAD SIDE :-)
but im still in school and liste to the gay god jesus and all those su*kers :( but but soon...

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 4th, 2004 10:34 pm (UTC)		(Link)
reward for intellectual honesty

You have provided an excellent analysis of this issue and your logic is flawless! Of course, the validity of a logical argument ultimately depends not only on its structural soundness, but also on the truth of its fundamental premises. Since these are metaphysical (pertaining to spiritual beings, etc.) they remain in question, therefore your caution is appropriate. You said:
"If God is just, moral or understanding it will forgive us our cautiousness!" I believe this is quite true, and that you will not only be "forgiven," but probably rewarded, for remaining intellectually honest and using your God-given intelligence as you are doing. As a Christian mystic (Episcopal), I violate your standards of caution in my communion with my God, but since He has consistently helped me to live with integrity and doing "good," I think He can be trusted. (Of course this presupposes the concept of "integrity" and "doing good" - something which you also face and is equally unfounded in your belief system as it is in mine, i.e., it remains somewhat subjective. But that cannot be helped.) If I am mistaken, I hope for the same "forgiveness" as you, as we have only done our best with what data we have been given and the faculties we have for understanding it... In any case, thank you for sharing your beliefs in such a clear, logical manner! I think Christians should read your writings so that they may more fully understand the Big Picture and the limitations of our human knowledge in this regard... I would usually say "God bless you," but I do not wish to insult you, so - I wish you all the best! Sincerely, Sister Julian - sisterjulian@netscape.net The Community of Francis and Clare

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 11th, 2005 09:23 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: reward for intellectual honesty

[i]"If God is just, moral or understanding it will forgive us our cautiousness!" I believe this is quite true, and that you will not only be "forgiven," but probably rewarded, for remaining intellectually honest and using your God-given intelligence as you are doing.[/i]

Because you are neither hot nor cold...

Disbelief in God because it is "safer" is not a good argument. You should not decide the truth of a matter based on how safe that decision is. This is the coward's way out; this is not being intellectually honest.

Out of all the arguments against the existance of God that there are this is the stupidest I have ever heard. Certainly any God that is good can forgive someone for being wrong in their ideas. But deciding to be "safe" rather than make a stand for belief, one way or another, is just not respectable. Standing by the belief that God does not exist can be a respectable stance but this reasoning is not.

Playing the odds...I call that spineless.

I'm not judging you; I'm judging your argument.

	From: vexen	Date: December 11th, 2005 10:06 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: reward for intellectual honesty

1. The safer option:

You make two criticisms, firstly that this is "cowardly". I don't agree, I think it is merely logical. I don't feel my emotions come into that one - especially given that I've never believed in God and for multiple decades never thought of it in terms of "safety".

Secondly, you say it is "intellectually dishonest". This is just bollocks - my page was honest and intellectual, so how you can arrive at the polar opposite is down to your rhetoric and psychology. Work it out - just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it "intellectually dishonest". I bet you over-use that phrase all the time!

2. I have made a stand for belief; I believe in the truth. In truth, there is no God. It would be dishonest, illogical and irrational of me to "choose" to believe in God just because you say its "dishonest" or "cowardly" not to. I don't believe in God... and that's the stand I'm sticking to until I come across some evidence or reason why there would be a God.

3. You haven't judged the argument: You've barely commented on it. Youve made comments on human psychology ('respectability', 'cowardice'), which are irrelevant to the argument. You've merely had a meta-discussion about the human teleology of the argument. The argument itself is above all that.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 7th, 2006 02:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: reward for intellectual honesty

So it is spineless/cowardly to doubtful and careful and having balls meaning willing to die/kill for your beliefs, which you can't really logically deduce but happen to "feel" strongly about.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 7th, 2004 06:47 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Jesus Christ

I believe there is a GOD. Everyday I thank HIM much. In return i find my life has been much easier since I started to thank HIM. I am not good at specifics when It comes to proving my point...but I'll say this: Jesus tried like all "getout" to Instill morals, ethics, goodwill, to follow GOD's covenants, the Ten Commandments, love, etc. But He was slaughtered by his fellow humans. Then...getting back to GOD...HE,Jesus Christ, reported that it just was no use to try to straighten out the human race. They are just plainly evil at heart and for GOD, HIS Father, to forget the human race except those who try to follow JESUS CHRIST. It's just that simple like how I write. In thanking GOD....I say it this way...."Thank you GOD...I say/ask this to YOU in the name of JESUS CHRIST my Lord and Savior and the HOLY SPIRIT. Thank YOU GOD....thank YOU very much".