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From: ![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) vexen |
Date: September 11th, 2002 03:36 pm (UTC) |
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: February 7th, 2006 04:12 pm (UTC) |
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Swimming in the sea of uncertainty and misc
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Let's face it - this world is an extremely complex system, or a set of complex systems. Our human mind can only focus and process small amounts of information at a time. To get anywhere, with knowledge, people have developed the scientific framework and disciplines. In the end, anything that can be considered as knowledge must be subjected to this scientific framework or it is just speculation. In the end, people will speculate and make assumptions (i.e. beliefs) because it's a lot easier and quicker than trying to work it out within the rigours of science. Also, being certain of something is more comforting to most people than being skeptical. So to shake off their assumptions people must be both willing and capable of thinking hard without jumping to conclusions. More importantly, they must be willing to get out of the religious boat they are in (most people are born into it) and jump in the sea of uncertainty and swim by themselves. Of course, one can easily foresee getting drowned in in, since swimming is an acquired skill.
I will uneasily admit that during certain storms in my life I had a few mouthfuls of water and inflated the religious life vest to help me stay afloat and when the storm subsided I promptly deflated the vest, since my rational mind quickly took over control. Moreover, at one point I think I was getting tired of swimming so I wanted the safety and comfort of a boat but then after reading the Bible and Quran found so many things I couldn't reconcile with, namely intolerance and threats of hellfire (which wasn't actually based on logic but on my conscience). In the end, it seems that I'll be swimming for the rest of my life, however tough it gets and I am resolved not to use the life vest (although don't hold my word for it!).
Anyhow, here is the reason I do not and cannot believe in heaven or hell. I firmly hold that science be used as THE best mechanism for establishing truth (although it's never absolutely permanent). So at this point, we have the accepted laws of physics which cannot be proven to be violated by any miracles (and if you do believe in miracles please stop reading further, a waste of your time really). These laws, apart from quantum physics, work in a deterministic way. So taking quantum physics aside, in a Newtonian universe everything is already pre-destined, including all your electronic impulses in the brain which are effectively your decisions, thus rendering you of free cosmic will. I use the word cosmic, because although there isn't cosmic free will, it is fair to say that our exact actions will be never completely predictable by us, so we will always experience our decisions as free will. OK, so I thought, maybe the free will lies in quantum physics. Maybe our brain can manipulate the uncertainty. But I can immediately see two very strong arguments against it - the uncertainty at the brain level is extremely tiny and even if it was significant quantum physics would only allow it to happen if it was subject to standard random deviation. On the other hand, you can believe that it's not the brain at all which decides upon our actions but our spirit - something which science cannot measure. But that's just equivalent to a continuous miracle.
Another common argument for the existence of the Creator (I have problems with the term God since the term often relates to nothing that we can relate to in this universe) is that anything which exists must have a creator. Science tells us that energy and matter can't be created out of nothing. However, if you follow that argument, you can also claim that there might be a creator behind the Creator. And a creator behind that one. And since this universe is infinite there might actually be an infinite number of creators, each creating the one before. Wow, maybe I just discovered a new religion. Sarcasm aside, gnosticism implies there is God behind the God that created this universe (demi-urge). However, in scientific terms, this is really no different than claiming a single deity.
Enough of my rambling, I find myself quite incoherent at times. I wish I had the time and writing skills of Vexen, but hope that this might ignite some sparks somewhere.
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: May 20th, 2003 05:36 am (UTC) |
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Like hellbot13 said, we need to look at the facts. Instead of looking at what religions say, look at what hard evidence says about the religions. In almost all cases, religious texts ignore history and just have doctrine. It is impossible to test the reliability of such doctrine and therefore meaningless. Christianity on the other hand, is filled with history, therefore making it testable. The main point of Christianity, what defines your salvation, is testable in that it is the death and resurrection of Christ, an actual event in actual history, the only religion with this ability.
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From: vexen |
Date: May 30th, 2003 09:55 am (UTC) |
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Muhammad, an uneducated Arab, received the Holy Book from archangel Gabriel, and his Immams wrote it down, recited in excellent and scholarly arabic, which Muhammad could not have known. This is Islam, founded by actual events in history.
So what do you mean, Christianity is the only religion with a testable history? No offence, but the non-Christians in the pagan world did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and indeed, neither did Christianity itself during the first two centuries, it's only post-Constantine literalist Christianity that has believed in Jesus as a literal figure. Christianity has a more corrupt and false history than Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions.
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: March 4th, 2004 10:34 pm (UTC) |
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reward for intellectual honesty
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You have provided an excellent analysis of this issue and your logic is flawless! Of course, the validity of a logical argument ultimately depends not only on its structural soundness, but also on the truth of its fundamental premises. Since these are metaphysical (pertaining to spiritual beings, etc.) they remain in question, therefore your caution is appropriate. You said:
"If God is just, moral or understanding it will forgive us our cautiousness!" I believe this is quite true, and that you will not only be "forgiven," but probably rewarded, for remaining intellectually honest and using your God-given intelligence as you are doing. As a Christian mystic (Episcopal), I violate your standards of caution in my communion with my God, but since He has consistently helped me to live with integrity and doing "good," I think He can be trusted. (Of course this presupposes the concept of "integrity" and "doing good" - something which you also face and is equally unfounded in your belief system as it is in mine, i.e., it remains somewhat subjective. But that cannot be helped.) If I am mistaken, I hope for the same "forgiveness" as you, as we have only done our best with what data we have been given and the faculties we have for understanding it... In any case, thank you for sharing your beliefs in such a clear, logical manner! I think Christians should read your writings so that they may more fully understand the Big Picture and the limitations of our human knowledge in this regard... I would usually say "God bless you," but I do not wish to insult you, so - I wish you all the best! Sincerely, Sister Julian - sisterjulian@netscape.net The Community of Francis and Clare
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: November 7th, 2004 06:47 pm (UTC) |
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Jesus Christ
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I believe there is a GOD. Everyday I thank HIM much. In return i find my life has been much easier since I started to thank HIM. I am not good at specifics when It comes to proving my point...but I'll say this: Jesus tried like all "getout" to Instill morals, ethics, goodwill, to follow GOD's covenants, the Ten Commandments, love, etc. But He was slaughtered by his fellow humans. Then...getting back to GOD...HE,Jesus Christ, reported that it just was no use to try to straighten out the human race. They are just plainly evil at heart and for GOD, HIS Father, to forget the human race except those who try to follow JESUS CHRIST. It's just that simple like how I write. In thanking GOD....I say it this way...."Thank you GOD...I say/ask this to YOU in the name of JESUS CHRIST my Lord and Savior and the HOLY SPIRIT. Thank YOU GOD....thank YOU very much".
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From: vexen |
Date: August 19th, 2005 10:58 am (UTC) |
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Re: You have the right to elieve what you want
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God is all-knowing, but also all-powerful. God would be perfectly capable of picking the PRECISE and EXACT words that would make us believe whatever it wanted us to believe. If we were not capable of understanding the knowledge, then God could put that capability in us, because God makes the rules. As such, God can tell anyone, anything, anytime, with no limitation or restriction.
Your comments about God explaining itself is, therefore, wrong; the Internet is not all-knowing or all-powerful, but if it was, the Internet would KNOW DEEPLY HOW to explain to an ant what the Internet was. If the Ant didn't understand, then an all-powerful Internet could MAKE the ant understand, whether it was biologically capable of it or not.
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: December 21st, 2006 07:44 pm (UTC) |
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Re: You have the right to elieve what you want
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What a goof!
Abused, starving and raped children, Tsunamis, Genocide, Serial Killers, endless war, homeless animals, AIDS, etc are all just ways that god says "I love you"
Your religion is a sham, a wool blanket you pull over your eyes to shield you from the true nature of the universe.
Repent, and renounce Christian BS! It's not too late!
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From: vexen |
Date: August 19th, 2005 11:04 am (UTC) |
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Re: You have the right to elieve what you want
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No, there are some religions that believe that Satan, a dark force of creation, created everything, and that there is no God. It's just as illogical as believeing a good god created everything. It's wrong to say that "anyone who believe's in satan believes in God" -> I know people who believe in Satan, but don't believe in God. "I believe in God no religion no specific way to pray or go to church" So are you a generic theist, or specifically a deist? Unreligious theism (philosophical theism, deism) is the most logical kind of theism that there can be. So congrats to you. Try www.deism.com or something. People have also seen Paradise, the Islamic heaven, where there are virgins, rivers of wine and other fantastical things. Does the fact that some people see these things, make all such things true? People see UFOs, Jesus on Earth, hundreds of different Gods... do you want me to, because YOU "see two worlds", believe EVERYONE who says they see things? What a ludicrous world that would be! Unfortunately, of all things hundreds of different gods and worlds that people see, 99% of them MUST be false, and 100% of them are PROBABLY false! Why do you trust *your* beliefs over those of other peoples' contradicting beliefs? Many people have had experience to make their faith strong... what do you say to them? Do you say that their experiences are false? http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/experiences.htmlhttp://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_experience.html |
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: November 16th, 2005 12:09 am (UTC) |
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Re: You have the right to elieve what you want
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why you so sure of thing you dont see? heaven an hell? i dont find him rude, you just come to his page, is you want to read anything like bible go to other page, and dont make troubles in others and end look like a coward when you try to put your self as a victin. if very easy to know what a cristian are going to say all your respond are always the same. you just sound as my father, lol. well i have a teacher how used to said, well i will go to hell, because dont sound bad, devil invent tv, music, vines, beers ect, so there if when the party start. lol. so dont say he try to brainwash anyone you just have interogants dont try to make other faults. saludos lalatina!
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: December 21st, 2006 07:38 pm (UTC) |
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On the nose, sort of
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While I enjoyed many of your logical constructs, I suppose they were primarily undertaken for shock/humor value. The truth is the universe is a random series of events and coincidences, and god/nature/whatever, may or may not exist, and almost certainly doesn't give a cosmic squat about us.
Although it fun to think that maybe there's some malevolent power out there that tortures us for a laugh now and then.
And your write, religion is bad, it blinds the masses to the truth, divides nations and families, makes people act irrationally, and shouldn't get tax exempt status. ALL religious leaders are con artists, all religious fools are sheep.
So, when do we start the revolution?
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: September 19th, 2007 04:20 am (UTC) |
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Danger
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I found your essay on God to be quite remarkable. Your writing gives the impression of a very tender conscience. Your arguments that you should not believe in God stem from the idea that you fear to offend Him. The lack of logic arguing against God from God unique but there is another point that I would rather comment on. You ask, "what if God is a Powerful Demon?" A Demon is by definition an evil spirit who will deceive you, you find the idea of this deception appalling and wrong, as do I, as I think would anyone. logically you are then holding yourself and this demon to a standard of right. Either this standard of right is of your own invention and you have no true claim to justice or it is derived from a higher standard of good. This standard must have more authority than either party and if God did indeed create the universe it is very unlikely that he would build into us a standard of good that He would by nature violate. There may be a demon but he is below the standard and God is below none in authority by definition. For this reason If there is a God (which is the supposition you have built your argument against belief on) I submit that indeed He must be good. If He is good it does not seem that He would despise an honest search for truth.
As regards religion. You are right, much evil has been down under a religious banner, but also much good. Schools, hospitals, halfway houses, missions. I would like to point more specifically to Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Junior. These two led movements based on a teaching of Christ. "do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Their movements, though painful and abused, truly may be said to have moved mountains. I submit that, in Christianity at any rate, war was never intended to be a tenant of religion and that the abuse of men have made it such.
I submit that if God is good and man, as we have daily evidence, is not, then God has two options. He may eradicate us as evil, or strive to make us good. I submit that if He were to force us to do good without any choice in the matter we would not actually be good and having no will of consequence, it would be as good as if we were destroyed, for we would lose all we comprehend as valuable in being human beings.
Then if God seeks to make us good we must engage in the process ourselves. This is an action and as such carries risk and consequence. However a good God would strive to help us collectively and individually. Collectively we would have prophets and teachers which we have had. Individually... I do not know your story I only know my own.
I hope nothing I say now will prejudice you against the logic of my arguments. I have been a Christian for twenty years. I respect and affirm science and reason. I have known doubt both of God's existence and of His goodness. For all of this I have found God's goodness, tolerance and love constantly affirmed. In fact Faith has constantly worked to open my mind to consider new points of view and, as I do not hold my opinion to be of final authority, I can allow myself to be wrong, or to accept that I may not understand some particular thing.
I further submit that a mature belief in Heaven and Hell is not a childish desire to sit on clouds and be always content rather than to burn in fire for every mistake. But to throughout eternity grow in the way, in the path we have already begun. Either to grow in Love, power, Joy, mercy, and Grace or to eventually be consumed by hatred, greed, pride, obsession, grumblings, and discontent.
I fully agree with the statement that God is dangerous. I do not find that He is safe, but in time I have come to trust that He is good and an ally to truth. For this reason I have decided to trust that as a pursue truth with a whole heart, God will continue to guide me in life and in death.
I know you do not share this hope, but it is my hope that this will give you a somewhat more mature idea of faith to consider in your arguments. for if you do reject faith you ought at least to reject faith for an adult. Anyone can poke arguments in the ideas of children. I do not believe that inaction is the safest thing. And if you want a Bible verse for it try Matt. 25:14-30. Refusal to commit to any action is never honoured.
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: May 28th, 2009 06:11 am (UTC) |
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Fact vs. Faith
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All of the people who commented believe that we as a society should live through life based on what we know vs. what we believe, right? That is a great point of view....But you are a hypocrite if you can say something is a fact but you have no evidence.
So, how can you say God is dangerous if you are denying the fact that there is a God? It doesn't make sense. If I were to say that fire burns, I would show you, I would have eveidence. However, if you were to reply that fire is a figment of imagination, you would have no proof and I would win.
The Bible has been passed down from generation to generation. Of course, it took many years to write but Jesus wasn't born over night.....it took 9 months. Then he needed time to grow up, and time to do many things most people think is outrageous.
The disbelief of God, as we see in this passage was passed down from antichrists. God had warned about these antichrists. He has already prophesied your coming. He knows if you will go to heaven or hell because he counts every hair on your head.
God has stated in the Bible that I and my Christian brothers and sisters are called to be missionaries. We are supposed to preach to the Gentiles, not the Jews. I am trying to reach out to each and every Atheist that God will allow me to.
So where what is your proof that God does not exist? I have more EVIDENCE that he does exist than you have saying he doesn't exist.
No other religion states that there will be people of other religions.
The Bible has clearly stated that there will be a large diversity and those who do not know Jesus Christ will die and go to hell.
The evidence that I have shows that God is real. I have pages and pages about how we know God is real and atheism is ridiculous and depressing.
Where will you go when you die?
Atheism says when you're alive you're alive, and when you're dead, its like sleeping only you never wake up, you never have dreams, and you are just.....gone.
That is a very depressing thought.
There is a way we all got here. I know a God put us here. We didn't just make ourselves. So would you rather take a 2% chance at my religion (Christianity) with a possibility of eternal life, or have a 0% chance because you don't believe anything?
There is no religion that doesn't believe in a God or Gods, except for atheism. Atheism is against every religion.....like 1 vs. a million….Common sense tells you it is the wrong way to go.
So when it boils down to Fact vs. Faith, Fact always wins. What are facts? BELIEFS backed up with EVIDENCE.
Christianity is a BELIEF.....the BIBLE is our evidence.
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