Vexen Crabtree 2015


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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

God was not the first cause or creator of the Universe

"The Universe Could Not Have Been Created by God: Logic vs. Supposition" by Vexen Crabtree (1999)

It proves nothing in either direction.

I belive in god. I belive that at some point something must have caused the univers. I don't however belive that something causeing the universe is proof that it had to be god.

The simple fact is we don't have the foggyest what caused the start of the univers or even weather the big bang was the start. We have no solid facts on the subject yet many people are very sure it happened.

Re: It proves nothing in either direction.

What are facts? Do they have to be physical, or can they be logical? In other words, if you know that the world had a begining, there had to be some intellegent force to bring the world into existence. But you have to understand, this isn't simply like molding play-do. God created the world ex nihilo (out of nothing). No creature could do this. He had to be much more than simply a "little crazy man upstairs". --DH

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Re: My faith (Anonymous) Expand
first off, i'm pretty sure scientists know that the universe is finite. i've heard it's probably in the shape of a torus, which if i'm not mistaken resembles a donut. maybe some sort of grander version of a gingerbread house, 'eh?

so now on to the refutations.

What this is saying is: If God created the universe, then God existed before the universe did. Why did God create the universe at the time He did? Why not earlier, or later?

i don't really believe 'why' is a valid refutation of anything. 'why is there gravity?' i really don't know anything about physics or superstring theory or relativity, so i can't tell you why. is it therefore incorrect? doubtful. gravity exists, i just don't know why. perhaps god created the universe at some moment, but not at another, and we're just ignorant of the reason.

the things that were 'going on' before the universe seem to mainly be the existence of god, which exists outside of the universe and time, so 'before' isnt really a good description. i guess that kind of might solve that problem.

If it is valid to say "everything has a cause except God", it is more likely that everything has a cause except the Universe.

god, by definition, is a supernatural force. the universe and time etc, contrariwise, are natural forces.

god, in being a supernatural force, exists outside the natural laws of cause and effect. there is no reason to say he had to be created. the universe, on the other hand, exists within these laws, so it follows that it must have been created.

logically impossible

god exists outsiiiide of that. that's a good catch-all. if i had more time i might be able to refute more point-by-point, but i've got hanging out to do.

and also

so, just for self-protection, i'll tell you i'm ridiculously agnostic, and amazingly atheist. i've done a lot of christian reading (c.s. lewis is great, i promise you), and the smarter theologists can argue their way out of pretty tight spots. it's the local morons that get the religion in trouble with bad arguments. i found your site when looking up information on the fake (for lack of a better word) christianity in the UK in order to refute an editorial in the newspaper.

so, good work, i just like to keep everyone on their toes.

Tell me every thing you Know about "GOD" him self

Tell me every thing you know about "GOD" send it to my E-MAIL I will wayt???

In the end it all comes down to this --> If god can exsist without being created so can that super compressed sub atomic particle from which the big bang came.

Scientific research has only gotten as far as the big bang theory and current has no theories with similar amounts of evidence pointing towards the exsistance of a god.

Even if a god/deity did exsist defining what they are would be near impossible and making set of beliefs that can affect lives for good and bad around something that is undefinable seems like a risky idea.

Fortunately this definition has been provided for us. The human race has in its possession 66 different books, written by over 40 authors, assembled over thousands of years, and proven integrated by in-depth study and solid historical evidence. These writings contain prophecies, parables, love stories, advice, songs, information on the dangers we will face, and instructions on how to proceed.

Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you.

The Holy Bible

No (Anonymous) Expand
Back to that old argument, if people believe god can exsist without being created that same belief can also be applied by scientist to help explain the Universe before the big bang. Therefore just as much credit should be given to both the religion and the theory. However there is one exception giving more credit to the theory, in nature the simple answers are usally correct (i forget what this is called) and therefore the universe with no god is simpler and is more likey.... i didnt say it was right just more likely.

As for the arguments i saw earlier on i say put your faith in humanity and not in the major religons that lost there usefullness at the end of the fuedal age in Europe. People always seemed to look for strength in their devout faith in some deity. To say anyone gave us the the abilities we have and that we have to follow some gods master plan erodes at our own race. Everything we accomplish is done by us. Every great piece of art, every advancment in science, everything good and bad. I look for faith in humankind and what we have managed to achieve by ourselves and what is best of all i feel much better about being able to choose my own fate. We dont need a cause or master plan to exsist we can create our own without being lead around by some religon that cant even define what it belives in properly. This applies to all the major religons by the way.

I leave by saying this to all those who believe in some form of diety. Even if we were created by a god i think that the greatest cause for them would to be see how much we could grow and develop. Not to make us worship them and spread the good word around the cosmos. This makes religon unneccasary as humans can be good people without faith in such a thing and in most cases religon has been used as a control device and that deminished the growth of humanity. So i say give it up, believing in such a god wouldnt matter to it anyway, if what you say is true they would be above needing to take credit for what they have dont which is what i see worshipping as

I agree with some of the things that you have said. The fact that most "religious" people have no idea what they believe is totally true. But what you fail to realize is that God gave you the abilities and the intelligence to grow and develop and whether you believe or not doesn't make it false. I would also like to say that yes people did do a lot but, someone or something which is God provided their talents and abilities. Now to defend my relationship not religion with God I will say that I have the free will to do anything that i choose as do you. Do i have the right to criticize your beliefs or non-beliefs; no, because you will answer for your ideas of "so-called theists" In no way do i intend to offend you or cause you emotional distress, but i want you to realize that life is kind of like poker. You have cards and you could do many things with them: you could stay, you could draw, or you could pass. But someone gave you those cards and has the ability to take them away.


So far the Big Bang has been but only versions of scientific theories that tend to logically indicate the sequence of events.
Whatever caused it, whatever the the complexities, it is highly unprobable that we can
prove or Truly Understand exactly about the Big Bang and the subsequent creation of the Universe, Space, Time, Planes of Existence, and Dimensions.

Whether God exists is a philosophical and theological theory.
God exists only in our educated beliefs, and therefore God is Everything and Almighty.
If we cannot Truly Understand the 5 W’s of God, ie Who he is, What is his purpose , Why does he exist, Where he’s from, and When he existed, then as sure as God is everything, God is also nothing! Which is a very fair conclusion.
For millenniums, human beings have pursued the various religious paths, all in search of guidance and spirtual salvation that they believed in. Spent enormous amount of energy on building places of worships, died in many conflicts, and travelled the waters to teach something that was never truly understood! The Mass thus preach, the Mass thus Follow …have lived and have died, ad-nauseam….. but What have we learnt?
: ateo 3/5/2004


I pity you. One who has no faith in God, has no sense of belonging in this world, no righteousness... no moral values....

Re: Faith

This is a massive insult to Atheists.

I happen to live by a very stong moral code. How many times have I been let-down by so-called religious people?

If you need a God in order to be moral, reasonable and happy then you are no longer a fully-fledged human, just another animal. (If you can be moral, reasonable and happy WITHOUT a God but believe in him anyway then you ARE a human after all, but a mistaken one in my opinion).

I am so proud that NOBODY has been bombed, murdered and terrorised in the name of Atheism. Atheists will continue to "turn the other cheek" a while longer. When the time comes that religion becomes a malignant cancer (it is already becoming cancerous in several of its forms) then its existence will be terminated by all and any means available.

Re: Faith (Anonymous) Expand

God is the Creator and has been the creator since the beginning

God, Created the universe and all that is in it and the bible is the true facts. Although you manson fans have no clue what you are talking about because you have idol worship. How dare you dis my faith and every single person on this earth who believes that god is the creator and by the way god is the only god, not manson and ew to those who think manson is the almighty one. Marilyn Manson is a not cool,HE SUCKS just like every single other satan worshipper. You suck.

Re: God is the Creator and has been the creator since the beginning

There is no evidence for a creation, something comming into existance from nothing. There is no evidence for the supper natural existance in any form. All evidence points to a purely physical world. The now known nature of time does not include beginging and ending like a movey film. The concept of beginning and ending is in the mind only. The universe is here. This means that it exist as it ALLWAYS has. Since it's energy of expansion has to have come from gravity, gravity will collapse it again. This oscillation process is continuse.

I believe in god. I belever that he deeply loves me. No matter how much i read statements why people dont believe in god i'm not convinced. Think about this: the complexity of your body, think about the earth and its position around the sun, if we were any farther away we would freeze.If we were any closer we would burn.Dont you think god knew this before he creted us? God knows at this exact minute what you are thinking.There is proof that he exsist people have seen jesus perform miracles. He has healed the blind, cured the deaf, and has risen from the dead.Now tell me, can you do that? God created us for his pleasure, we please him. Belive me, one day you will see the glory of the Lord because he is comming back im hust warning you and the bible says trhat every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that jesus christ is lord. If you dont you will be sent to the firy pitts of hell, and then nothing will be able to save you. Hell is worse than anything you can imagine it to be, it is total darkness and pain, and the worse thing you try to compare it with youre not even close. But on the other hand heaven is complete serenity.Can you imagine living forever in total happiness with god for eternity? well it can happen all you have to do is ask jesus for forgiveness from your sin and accept him in your heart. he will hear you and he will be with you. Jesus deeply loves, he says that anything you ask him for wiill be provided if you ask him out of faith. So, to conclude dont be of the world accept jesus into your life at this moment and admit your love to him.

Spoken like a true servant of the Lord.

causual relationships flaw

You have made a mistake in your reasoning for ruling out God as the first cause. In THIS universe, every event must have a cause. We see this in every day life. The creation of OUR universe was an event. I'm sure the recent theories are for the most part correct about the Big Bang and the expanding universe. However, all of these things began at a single point in time, which time is also is a part of THIS universe. So, if an event must have a cause in this universe, and the creation of this universe was an event, then something which exists outside this universe and existed prior to it, caused its creation. You can call this existence whatever you want. I call it God. Remember, the rules for cause and effect exist for THIS universe and cannot be applied to anything outside of it. Whether or not God waited to created this universe is irrelevant as time is a function of OUR universe and we cannot logically speculate on the conditions that exist outside OUR universe.
In addition, your data on the fate of the universe is inaccurate. It is commonly accepted that the critical density for the "big crunch" does not exist in the universe despite the talk of dark matter and other strange and unobservable things, and that the universe will continue to expand forever. It will, at some point, reach absolute zero and all movement will cease. At this point disorder (entropy) will have reached its maximum point. This proves that there is no cycle of universes and this is the only one, or at least the only one that matters to us, and all living things will surely die. How can a universe be infinite if it will someday die? Only what existed prior to THIS universe is infinite. I pray that he will save us all.

By the way, I am not that go to church every Sunday guy. Most of those people are hypocrites and have no respect for science. It's those ignorant people that make those of us who can think logically, but still have faith, look like idiots.

As I posted in another forum on the same topics:

God is just a title. A title for the one who created everything. Do I think there is a God? I really cannot answer. Does God have to be a being? If so, then no, I don't believe there is a God. But if God can be a moment, such as the moment total singularity imploded to create the universe we are in now, then yes. I would believe God is that moment. Because God and the Moment would be considered the same.

And from the Bibles view, what exactly did this "God" create? As much as people today believe in our supposed "God", other civilizations believed in their own Gods. The ancient Egyptians believed in many Gods, but we know today none of that is true. What makes us believe ours is true?

Why are we today so determined to think there is a God? Did he really create a Heavan and a Hell. Where though? Maybe the original writers assumed the stars above them were the Heavans, and the molten rock that shot out of the Earth and brewed below them was Hell. I mean, they did think the Earth was flat for Christ's sake, oops, I mean for the "creator's" sake. And as much as we laugh at ancient beliefs now, maybe the future is laughing at ours.

What made the "gods" of the Egyptians and the Greeks so believable to the people of their time? Perhaps they existed. If Satan is the ruler of this world, doesn't it make sense that he would try to lead people astray by complicating things?

The Bible makes reference to fallen angels being the leaders of cities and countries. The Bible also references the times of the Greek Titans and god-men like Hercules. In the Bible they are called Nephilim, and Goliath was one of them.

The Bible clearly states that Hell is in the belly of the Earth. And just for information's sake, ancient Jews did not believe the earth was flat.

Ancient civilizations are laughing at us, because the wealth of our "information" is spoon fed to us by managed media and commerciality.


I am not out to prove God to you because no matter what i saw you have a mental set, or a philosophy that excludes a God so no argument of mine will change your mind. though i would like to ask you some qustions and Conterdictions i have found in your frist aguerment, and later changle you on the other. my frist arumgent

Well, the mere existence of God, or of any other object, could not causally explain why the universe came into existence. It must be something about God which does the explaining, such as his willing the universe to exist. But has he, for all time willed the universe to exist? Why then, did it not come into existence sooner?

the problem with your agurment and if your aguring with a theist, who beleives in a God outside of spaces time, is in your augment you resticed him to a timeline, my frist qustion to you is why dose God need a timeline? you seem to have comcpet that time lived with God but the theist says that God is outside of time. time exicest after God, willed it in. time and space are on the same side of the coin they must exicst at the same time, with out space thier can be no time and without time thier can be no space, but you dont need time and space for a God outside, both of them. creation of time donst need to be created before he caused somthing in to being. creation of time can be at that which is created at that moment of time and spaces together at once? the problem with human mind is it comformed buy space and time this whoever dose not mean that time has to always bein or that God is resticed time it means that are concpet of how we think is, not that God is. the bible speaks of things before in a (time sensen)so we can have some kind of understanding of things, outside of space and time. not that time was equal to God.

Well "Vexen" since your Gothic and I'm not and never will be God does exist. If their is a Satan (which their is) their is a God. First of all Satan knows that their is a God, he admitted that their is a God. If their were only a Satan and no God the only thing that would be happening in this world is evil. How would their be no God, when Jesus came to die on the cross for you and me 2,000 years ago?

Re: ThEiR Is A GoD

Your English is seriously shit, most the time I just ignore the butchering of the language that occurs on the Internet, but you're really taking the piss.

"Their" is a God?? How old are you? You're either as immature as you sound, or you completely failed school and are thick as shit.

"THERE is a God".

Also, "your gothic" makes no sense either. If you meant "You're" as in short for "You are", then why not spell it properly?

If you're going to try and communicate, if you want to say something, then it's worth at least checking that you're not just farting all over the screen. Take a little time, your blatant disregard for polite communication is evident; if you're message is so worthless that it doesn't matter how you write, then why even bother speaking?

Gothic is an adjective, not a noun. A "goth" is a person who is gothic. An item can be described as gothic, as is architecture. "Since your gothic and I'm not" should have read "Since you're a goth and I'm not".

Have you tried to cram *every* schoolboy error into one paragraph or something?? Now, after mangling your message and mentioning goth, you completely fail to actaully finish the first sentance and say WHY you even mentioned it! Goth is a sense of fashion and music. What on Earth has the fact that you're not a goth got to do with the theology that you try to debate in?

As for you "argument"... all you're doing is making assertions. You can say "there is a god, there is a Satan", as much as you want. Assertion. Great. Millions of people believe in millions of gods of every kind, every random believer could say "There is a Buddha, there is an Amittibha Buddha, there is a Boddhivista Tree...". But without some FACTS or ARGUMENT to back it up, what's the point?

You say:
"Satan knows that there is a God, he admitted that there is a God"

Now, this is a Christian belief, isn't it, silly Christian. I'm not a Christian. If I was a Christian, I would not worship Satan. As it happens, I am a Satanist, a completely different religion to Christianity with completely differeht beliefs. There is no "god" and "satan" in Satanism, neither "god" nor "satan" have personalities or voices, neither can speak. Neither, really, exist.

Get a fucking clue.

Re: ThEiR Is A GoD (Anonymous) Expand
Re: ThEiR Is A GoD (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Which religion? (Anonymous) Expand

there is a god

if you believe there is no god then you must believe science can explain everything; therefore you believe science can explain WHY ice floats on water? not how but why. you must also believe that from lots of tiny particles floating around for millions of years that they can suddenly all join up and create a world so perfect and well planned as ours. if you believe there is no god then i feel really sorry for you.

Re: there is a god

There are billions of planets, billions of stars... the chances are pretty damn high for some of those places to be able to support life. It's not that the Earth was "planned", but that (obviously) life was nurtured here *because* it is ideal, by chance.

Ice floats on water because H2O molecules increase their seperation when frozen, so the density of water decreases upon freezing, hence it rises. No biggie, there. There is no deeper "why", only cause-and-affect.

Re: there is a god (Anonymous) Expand
Re: there is a god (Anonymous) Expand

ideas stuck on the ground level

Your ideas are limited.Maybe our universe is inside of a universe that's inside of a universe.Our universe is not that complex to me unless it is only a part of another and infinite string of universes.In my father's house there are many mansions.God as a man tried to tell you something along time ago if you will just listen.




I do not know; the Crabtree history that I am familiar with is from Germany. Email me at if you want to ask more questions!

first section on god argument

"When" is not an acceptable word when inquiring, for example, "if god is infinite, why didn't he choose to make the universe sooner?" Time is not separate from the universe. There is no "when" prior to the "beginning" of the universe. The best definition I've ever heard for time is: The observation of causes appearing prior to reactions- that is, the direction in which order flows to disorder and which disorder flows to order (you always see the egg fall off the counter and splatter on the floor, but you never see it reassemble itself and jump on to the counter). Nothing more, excluding time's relationship to gravity and accelerated motion. What happened before the big bang, or what happened before this particular "bang" or universe popped into existence is by definition undefined (although this could be the classic philosophers lack of imagination).

second argument esp. instant creation. you might get a kick!

I like how you mentioned a "reason" for god to wait, etc. How about this? An omnipotent and perfect god would have no motivation. All motivation comes from carnal needs or curiosity. God knows all, why would he/she/it be curious or motivated to create anything. But wait... God can see the future... God can see "It's" own future... What if in the future God destroys himself (pronoun used for sake of tradition and my oppressive monotheistic upbringing)? Can God see what happens in the future AFTER his ability to see the future is destroyed as he destroys himself? If the answer to that question is yes, then God has no motivation and nothing is "created." If the answer is NO, then God is motivated by the curiosity of what will happen when he destroys himself. SOOOOO, God destroys himself, and THAT is the big bang, and we and every other piece of the universe are nothing but the blown up bits and pieces of God. Interesting, huh? Ha, ha. Got that from the author of the comic strip called Dilbert. "God's Debris." Fun little book, and a fun little idea. P.S. Please disregard spelling and grammatical errors. Not trying to be rude or stupid. I'm just lazy and eager to keep on reading this sort of thing. :-)

to sum up my response to these ideas

Occam's Razor is, in my opinion, the most convincing argument for non-theism, although personally I find neither answer intellectually satisfying. To me, it's as if you have the number 2 times 1/0 compared to the number 1/0. Both are undefined; one is simplified. So, unfortunately, I'm stuck in limbo. I believe in "god," but only because I define god as the following: That which "caused" the laws of physics to be what they are; the laws of physics themselves; the universe, or the universe as an extension of god; the un-findable answer to the question of why anything should exist at all; the answer to the question of why not; and perhaps the idea that god is merely the uncreated energy that flows from matter to matter. And especially, the hypothetical original force made up of gravity, electromagnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces the supposedly existed when the the universe was incredibly hot and symmetrical.

Re: to sum up my response to these ideas

oh! and the math used here may not illustrate my point properly. I haven't had any classes on calculus or other more advanced mathematics. I'm not quite sure how numbers greater than infinity work. The point is the analogy that the "god" version is just a complex fraction where as the "non-god" version is the simplified version. Both seem to be undefined to me, so neither are satisfying to me.

to sum up my response to these ideas

Occam's Razor is, in my opinion, the most convincing argument for non-theism, although personally I find neither answer intellectually satisfying. To me, it's as if you have the number 2 times 1/0 compared to the number 1/0. Both are undefined; one is simplified. So, unfortunately, I'm stuck in limbo. I believe in "god," but only because I define god as the following: That which "caused" the laws of physics to be what they are; the laws of physics themselves; the un-findable answer to the question of why anything should exist at all; the answer to the question of why not; and perhaps the idea that god is merely the uncreated energy that flows from matter to matter. And especially, the hypothetical original force made up of gravity, electromagnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces the supposedly existed when the the universe was incredibly hot and symmetrical.

and finally...

Imagine that your lying down somewhere, awake but blind. You're on or near the ocean. You hear the surf moving in and out, in and out. Completely uneventful, never ending. You're completely content. The universe is an infinite cycle. It continues forever because the laws of physics mandate it to. Big bang, big crunch. Surf goes in, surf goes out. Completely uneventful on the grand scale. Like breathing. That's where you find "god." We have a word definition problem here. The idea of "god" in question in this debate was one created by humanity. But along with our better understanding should come a redefinition of the word, like every other word. I define god as the thing at the very bottom of it all. God is the never ending cycle. Yeah, kind of eastern, kind of mystic, but no one can seriously question the existence of THIS god, and this god accomplishes the entire purpose of the meme of "god." Remember the surf moving in and out. Uneventful, yet resolute and guaranteed in its next cycle enough to be nearly called purposeful.

Re: and finally...


Why would this god be conscious, thinking, have free will, etc? It could be an unconscious, unthinking solid object, perhaps the sum total of spacetime; if the cycle of the Universe is God, then, is "god" really "god", or is "universe" merely the more accurate word?

one more thing.... PLEASE LET ME KNOW...

PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT I'VE WRITTEN! I love hearing different opinions about this subject. I know you've already covered some of these points, and I'm sure you're busy, but I did notice that you went out of your way to slam the illiterate idiot with bad grammar, etc., so it would be nice if I got some feedback. It's always fun to debate all of this. Thank you for reading all my ramblings and thanks for writing yours!

Re: one more thing.... PLEASE LET ME KNOW...

the end all and be all to all this Bull Crap

you are all logically retarded and i can prove it with science, but does it mean you are retarded.

look there is a God, and you can only understand him through Jesus.

argue all you want, but when you are dying, you will realize what a waste of effort it was to disprove the reason for existance.

oh yeah, i can't see my face with my own eyes, therefore i don't believe in my face!

God bless all

Some research on creation of GOD

HI Freinds,
I have beenbehind the question of creation of universe and God, presently i am doing some research and on the edge of proving that "MAN has created GOD" and still working on creation of universe.

If you guys have interest to work on this research, contact

it says in the Bible that God's spirit was raoming in blackness.


Roaming implies movement, how and where was he going?


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