Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
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Logic and God

"The Universe Could Not Have Been Created by God" by Vexen Crabtree
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Logic is more powerful than God, but sadly Faith has nothing to do with logic. It's almost an antonym, in fact :)

Human beings are far too complicated to behave in a maths-logical way.

Computers are also moving in that direction. Although dead annoying, I see "illogical" behavior resulting from immense complexity to be one of the essential elements of what we call life because we're unable to admit (most of us) that life could be purely maths-logical and mechanical.

www.learntruthwith.us (Anonymous) Expand
(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
God created Logic. (Anonymous) Expand
(Deleted comment)
I don't know if I'd call god Logical or rational.
Human tought may have some kind of continual continuaty but frequently deveates from Logic infavor of instinct or emotion.

one would have to assume that if god exsists he must be more rational than logical since without emotion he would have no drives to do anything especialy embark on such a massive project as either createing or even just shapein or for that matter even bothering at all to influence the univers. That kind of thing takes serious drive and given that he apperently gave us free will I would say a great deal of curiosity too.

Logic vs. God

(Anonymous)
God is the storngest being of all creation
God is the creator

Can God create something that is more powerful/stronger than him?
If he can, he's not the strongest

Re: Logic vs. God

(Anonymous)
I want to reply this question using my head only. If we look into our head, we see that:
Our brain – the best computer one can ever see- is protected in our skull.
Our eyes – the best camera that takes the pictures and send them to our tiny memory – are protected in eyes’ holes very well. if compared to nose.

Our eyelashes are the windshield wipers of our eyes and protector of our eyes from the dust.

Our ears are the best receivers which identifies all the sounds all over the world.

Our hair is our beauty dress for our head and covers our head against the cold weather.

Our eyebrows, apart from our beauty lines, are the protector as well that prevent sweat coming into our eyes.

Our nose is a well-designed smell detector which identifies all the flowers and fruits and other things like smoke a sign of fire or gas. Wet nose hair prevents the dirty dust at the gate –nose- of our lungs.

Our tongue is the doorman of taste for our stomach. Bitter food is spited out but sweet ones are invited in. Our tongue helps us speak as well. Lips are the curtains for our teeth to make us look beautiful.

In 6.5 billion world population, people have all the same face although they are different in images.

Moreover through our computer like brain, we can think, evaluate and judge what is right what is wrong or which is logical and which one is absurd1 Then if we use our head and the logic in our brain, we conclude that there must be a creator who creates our head so well and so perfect rather than considering random causes as creator which downrightly conflicts with reason and logic. Thus God does not waste anything creation and does not do anything in vain. He can create a more powerful thing but why does he do that? Do we need that? He does not need to prove anything more to prove that he is the only creator who provides us with everything we need. He already created a wonderful world with all necessary things in it for us; servant -like animals, fruit stall-like trees, factory like soil, our body, a wonderful and best at creation, a seven-layer shield over our world, a best heater-like sun with no gas and coal heating us for million years with no waste materials – please don’t think about that nuclei of hydrogen atoms to fuse into the nuclei of helium atoms via a series of reactions makes the energy. These are the reasons that God created in it to refer to our logic from HIS ultimate wisdom and knowledge. Otherwise God of course is able to create energy for us without a sun. If any ordinary heater we buy for cold days requires a maker, how come, a miracle like-heater sun does not require a maker?

Briefly, what I observe through the e-mails is that audience is lost in their own debates like God or logic etc. We call Wisdom and infinite knowledge in God’s creation, where we cannot reach it with our very human perceptions and logic. And while we have thousands of blessings in our lives, like breathing, digesting, fruits, foods, walking, talking, seeing, hearing, smelling, giving birth and babies creation in mother’s womb etc. We can still ask the questions that are irrelevant to what we are blessed for.

God bless us all with his mighty eye-opener events and guide us to use our logic, the best blessing of all, to reach the border of His wisdom and Infinite knowledge through His miracle-like creations.

Translated from Risale Nur collection.
David Chamber
e-mail: erenlight@hotmail.com


If God is bound by no logic, what can he not do? Nothing? Then he can make himself known to us can't he? And he can also make us not bound by logic, therefore we can know him too? He could also defy logic and create himself/herself, no?

A being cannot create itself. If it has not yet created itself, then it can't defy logic because it can't do /anything/.

Re: there you go (Anonymous) Expand
"If God can contain a property of "logical", then the following must be true: That the Universe, that requires no cause or creator, also can contain logic. This means that if this defense is true the Universe doesn't need God in order for logic to exist anyway"

You cannot apply thought to the universe. The statement "The Universe, that requires no cause or creator, also can contain logic." is false in that the Universe has no thought. When these actions are "done" by the Universe, it does not think if them as logical, but as what it does. We do not say, "That tree is logical, it is siting in the best spot on this piece of land." We do say however, "The *placement* of the tree is logical, it is in the best spot on this piece of land."

The nature of logic

(Anonymous)
Your fundamental mistake is treating logic like an entity. Logic is not an entity. It is a description. It does not exist by itself. When an argument is presented the descriptions of that argument are created with it, logic included.

Re: The nature of logic

I think I mean "the laws of cause-and-affect" when I say "logic", I mean the very basic rules of the universe that make anything "logical" work, rather than have random results follow random events, and therefore invalidating all thought (as only random thoughts would be possible without "logic").

Re: The nature of logic (Anonymous) Expand
Re: The nature of logic (Anonymous) Expand

God and Logic

(Anonymous)
"is it not true therefore, that atheists are at least somewhat more rational and logical in their beliefs? "

No. Agnostics are more rational, because you can't prove the excistence of god more true than false. When thinking about Descarte or Hume and what we can't really proove as true premises of the world, we are cut quite short. The only thing we can actually prove to excist is our selves.

Believing in god is question of faith, in my oppinion. And faith is the way we accept arguments without logical reasoning, just because of the "feeling" or whatever you want to call it. So, yes I think in that way god excists out of human logic. I think the proof of god is a paradox for the human mind, and can never be prooven.

Think about the beginning of the world? What created the big bang? If I say god, you can always say who created god etc.etc it's a paradox.

There are limits to human knowledge. We are just so overwhelmed in scientific details and complexitys of logical structures, that we don't often find it necessary or even have the capacity to see what it all cannot explain. There is still a lot of that left in the world, and a lot of subjects that scientific reaserch cannot touch (things that are out of our senses)

One might go on and argue that logic is a structure created by the way of the human mind to percive things, and tells us of nothing more than the way we think and store knowledge. It doesn't really reach anything from the "outside" world.

Re: God and Logic

I believe that atheists make fewer assumptions than theists (i.e., giving the "uncaused cause" such qualities as consciousness, will, aim, thought, etc, make for a greater set of assumptions than the atheist makes about a scientific first cause), but I agree that agnostics can put a case for the possible existence of an actual creator, but, that Occams Razor and "likelihood" make it more sensible to assume an atheist universe.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/assumptions.html (Assumptions theists make)
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/faith.html (Uncaused Cause of Atheists & Theists)

logic is man made and has human limits

(Anonymous)
God is way beyond human perception. You can't possibly explain infinity and fully comprehed it right? but it still exists. our restricted minds can't percieve everything. you are right! you can't put God into HUMAN logic. deep down I know you know why too. God is not to be put in our little human imperfect box of understanding. Besides its not about us Its about God! I hope you find out before you Die. because Then it'll be to late.

Re: logic is man made and has human limits

I don't think God would judge me on account of my knowledge & understanding. Because people can't put forward a logical argument for god means that I don't believe in God... if God exists, it can't really morally blame me for not believing. If God judges people by their knowledge (which is incidental & nothing to do with how good a person you are), then God is immoral and a monster, and in that case I don't want to spend eternity in Heaven with such a creature.

The idea of God and Logic or God and Thought is another example of trying to project human traits onto a "Wholly Other" being. To do so is natural, given as humans, it's the method we have. But's it's also an error.

Take for example the statement "If God thinks and plans." What makes anyone think that God THINKS? God is the fountain of all knowledge, wisdom and logic. What would He (She)(It) have to think about? When you know all, thinking is not necessary. If I were to say to you "The sky is blue" over and over, long before the 100th time, you'd say, "What's wrong with you, I know the sky is blue. You don't have to tell me over and over" The problem is our rational. Thought breaks things down into parts and
tries understand through reduction. With God, this completely the wrong method. God cannot be broken down into parts. He is one incomprehensible, infinite but indivisible, pure essence and Being. You also can't separate Her from Her characteristics. God does not think, God Is thought. God does not Love. God IS Love. When mystics write of their first encounter with God, they do not write of their feeling Her "power", or His "love" or any one individual aspect. With God, you get it all. God doesn't do things in half measure. You get Him all. Bam!!!!! with a capital B. It's a Gestalt at it's infinite. You feel Her love, wisdom, power, holiness, and an unfathomable, infinite number of other things. That's why every mystic at all times forwarns us that language is completely and utterly inadequate in relating the experience of God.

Logic is very weak

God existed in a non physical plane before anything existed. There wre no random events since events could not happen because God is timeless. There was only a creator, and He was about to create. Logic would be needed, and by these laws the universe would abide. There was nothing but everything, and then everything was created by the Forever that is God. Try to make God abide by YOUR laws that God created for you and you will no doubt belittle God. What is Intellect? What Is logic? Is it there? Tangible? Evidence of logic? What created logic if not God? And what created you FROM logic if there was no God? Does what you call logic REALLY make sense? Could God easily have made a different kind of logic, one that would seem ordinary to someone whos lived by it, but bizarre by our standards?

Does logic REALLY matter in the argument of God? What if God is logic? What if God IS logic in itself, but with a consciousness? And with will, power?

Arguments for and against God will always fly one way and another, each argument more powerful than the last. And you know what? It won't mean a Goddamn THING. Laws and Physics... Logic and Morals. It means nothing. It could have easily wound up as being something absolutely different If God wanted. It just seems absolutely hopeless when someone starts saying that God doesnt exist. What can you do about it? They'll talk about logic and science. Why? What's the laws of the physical got to do with the laws of metaphysics? Can you prove or disprove the existence of God? Can you rid 100% of all possibility in the existence of God? Is it even worth TRYING?! What's the point? I mean really? Can you match up to the power of eternal possibilities? Can you even COMPREHEND eternal possibilities? God is forever. Whether you believe in him or not, there just HAS to be a God.

There can't just have been a BOOM and then several millions and billions of years later life began? When did the mind begin? Consciesness? When did life itself begin? When did the first cell take off and start respirating? WHY?!

Infact... why did the big bang come along? HOW did it come along? Was the creation of the universe the result of a random, ILLOGICAL explosion? Or was it something more? Something away from mundane laws and physics? Something fused with infinity? Something we can never question beyond our wildest dreams... the cosmos is large... yeah... what's outside of the universe? What is past the final star? We have only seen probably less than 1% of the universe. What else is there? Where else is there? Whats it all about? If my arm was long, strong and rigid enough, could I touch the end of the universe? Could I feel it? (Assuming the nerveous message was sent fast enough) Could I break past the edge of the universe? Is it lgoical for an outside to exist? Is there just emptyness past the final star? Is there just NOTHING?! Emptiness would be something, and darkness and black would be something... or would it? Is it just utterly cold, dark? Infinitely energyless? Or infinity charged with energy? Is there total light? Is there utter heat? Can you answer even that? Then how can you answer a question like "Does God exist?" aswell when God also lies just outside our borders?

I probably sound like a crackpot, but you just CAN'T disprove God totally... you just can't. Theres always the possibility that there is a God.

You can't argue about it. You might want to, but I can guarantee you right here and now you CANNOT rid all chances of the existence of God through petty science.

I put it to you.. without a metaphysical, there is only physical... therefore, it is possible that one day we may be able to replace our dying cells with medicine (dont ask me how it might be done) and therefore live forever by replacing our consciessness into another body. It's possible right? If all that there is to us is just chemicals and flesh, then we can be fixed right? Like toys. Are we just toys?

Is it possible that we are just flesh and chemicals?

Re: Logic is very weak

I don't have time to reply properly, but you started out by saying:

"God existed in a non physical plane before anything existed. There wre no random events since events could not happen because God is timeless. There was only a creator, and He was about to create."

This doesn't add up - if God was timeless (i.e., static), and no events could happen, how was God "about" to create? In timelessness, how can something be "about" to happen? It's either happened or it hasn't.

This brings us to a pantheistic problem:

If God is perfect, then God knows instantly and immediately every aspect of what it is to create. As soon as God exists, it creates existence as we know it. God cannot pause - there can be no reason. Especially if it is beyond time, and all-knowing! Therefore, according to the few bits of information you've given me about your God:

As soon as God exists, the Created Universe exists. This means that the Universe has been eternal; God is beyond time, the Universe must have been created, by God, with a beginning that is now an eternity ago.

This leaves some traditional forms of theism in a bit of a contradiction!

Vexen, I very much enjoyed your piece on God being restrained by Logic. I agree.

I am writing a similar paper now where I say God is restraiend by the moral order. Your thoughts on it would be really helpful.

"God Has No Free Will" by Vexen, 2001 Dec 31

An excerpt from: "God Has No Free Will" by Vexen, 2001 Dec 31

"God, as the ultimate creator, created goodness. God is also said to be a perfectly good benevolent God. This means that God fulfils every possibility of the goodness it has created. It is the be-all and end-all of goodness, perfectly good and inerringly good. If God was not 100 percent perfectly moral, God would not be perfect. This results in a complete lack of free will for God.

God knows the nuances and complexities of every situation. God knows which actions are optimal, it knows which actions are perfectly good. Only God, I would guess, is capable of performing actions that are perfectly good. And it does so inerringly, constantly, because it itself is perfectly good and never errs. It is all-knowing and perfectly good. But, the problem is for free will, in any situation, of all the possible things God could do, God does the perfectly morally right one. It never chooses an inferior course of action because it is perfect. If it acted imperfectly, it would not be perfect.

So, in any situation, a perfectly moral God has no choice: It must carry out what action is most good. God, in creating goodness, and being perfectly good, is completely limited to only a set, predetermined series of actions. In any situation, at any point in time or out of time, God has no free will: It must robotically and automatically carry out the precise action that is perfectly good.

But herein lies contradiction: How can a God that has no choice be described as "moral"? A computer, for example, is amoral because it cannot make moral choices; it's programming defines it's actions accurately. Likewise, God accurately has to follow the optimally most perfect and moral path. God's morality is the same as a computers: It makes no truly moral choices. This contradiction shows up a fundamental flaw in the English used to describe God... it cannot be perfectly moral and moral. In short, God must be amoral (with no free will) or imperfect."

god=logic

(Anonymous)
god=logic think about it

Re: god=logic

(Anonymous)
Human being's logic can reach the border of Wisdom Of God. The Guys' logic like Stephen Hawkings or Einstein. By the way Einstein proves and clamis that God created the universe? So are we Einsteins or what?

A Problem

(Anonymous)
You are assuming alot of things here. How do you know that God is not the same as logic? Also, logic is not a being. It is simply a word that we give to what we know as an explanation that can suit our minds. Another thing: logic doesn't necessarilt dictate God, but rather the other way around. And us, as humans, don't see everything God does as logical. Alot of it is beyond us. Logic can more so be a part of God. God gave us logic when He gave us our knowledge. Remember that God has always been, and logic must have been with Him. You do not know that the Universe doesn't need a creator, in fact it is illogical to think that it doesn't need a creator. According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the total amount of usable energy in the Universe is constantly decreasing. This means the Universe had a starting amount of energy. Thus there was a time of creation. To think that the Universe came from nothingness is illogical. It must have had a supernatural force create it.
Allow me to state now that most atheists I have met are more illogical than most theists I know.
You have there a bunch of mingled and twisted arguements. Once again, you assume too much, God uses logic, but logic does not use God.

My logic

(Anonymous)
Some day in future, the software that I have created will be evolved in such the way that have I expected: it could reason by itself. It will be able to trace back its orgin up to the bit 1 and 0 which are the smallest elements in its universe that it can perceive. It may be intelligent enough to understand that by logic that I have programmed it then it will think that I am the logic as his creator. Of course, I am logic but how can I make it understand that I am just a programmer as human understand? I am working hard on this. To fill the gap of understanding, I introduces "Faith" to it rather than logic only. Hope it work.


The Satanic Fallacy

(Anonymous)
God is Absolute Truth. The Universe is manifested Relative Truth. The Absolute Truth is ineffable reality and supramundane. The Relative Truth is conceptual and mundane. Thus there are two Planes of Reality: Absolute Reality and Relative Reality. Thus, two logical perspectives. Absolute Reality is Uncreated Reality, immortal. Relative Reality is Created Reality, mortal. Absolute Reality is void, empty of all things. Created Reality is replete with all things. Logic is a thing. All things have names and forms. There are no names and forms on the Absolute Plane of Reality. Absolute God has no name. Absolute God makes himself known to mortal, created beings by names. If God created the Universe, then God created Logic. Time and Space are names associated with temporal and spatial forms. Thus, they are things. Absolute Reality is beyond all things, beyond conceptualisation, beyond Relative Reality, beyond logic. Absolute Reality is beyond life and death. Relative Reality is bound by life and death. Absolute Reality has no beginning, middle, nor end. Created, Relative Reality includes non-linear, symmetrical beginningless and endless time, aka Eternity. Eternity is Time created in the image of Absolute Reality. It consists of Three Infinites: the Infinite Past, the Infinite Present (Always Now), and the Infinite Future. The Created, Relative Universe is finite, with a beginning, a middle and end, cyclical because reborn endlessly. It is logical to understand that the Absolute Creator of the Created Relative Universe is totally objective to that Creation. It is logical to understand that the totally objective Creator cannot be logically isolated and analysed beyond "Factor X". The Universe consists of Composite Things and is thus analysable. God is the Totality, unanalysable Absolute Reality, the Three Times and the Ten Directions of Space. It is logical to understand that the Created Universe is a logical subset of Absolute Reality: Creator God. It is illogical to think that the Absolute Reality can be totally understood from the perspective of Relative Reality. That mistake is the Satanic Fallacy.

On the logic of God

(Anonymous)
I find your material quite interesting, while the arguments are just as weak as the common arguments for both theists and atheists. Please by no means, think that I am being condescending, for that is not my purpose. I simply believe that, an atheist of all should post only defenses which are rigorous, and true to the most keen observation and induction. Rigorous logic as in the logic of a mathematical proof eventually leaves us to uncertainty, or in a manner a faith to whichever "truth" holds to one strongest. In the end all bows down to ones presupposed axioms. For instance, you assume God is a projection into a space where logic holds, and if he is not, we are at a loss. Indeed we should be at a loss, for "meta-logic" cannot exist concretely. We can abstractly perceive a logic where one statement is T1,T2, or T3 rather than T or F, however, we can make no more sense of this. The dichotomy of being is more than innate, it is inescapable. My motivation is of my own. Too many try to persuade pathetically, being captured by emotion and dogmatic beliefs. I do hope in your search for the truth you have not come to this point. Your thoughts are quite intellectual and well thought out, however as an obvious atheist I suggest that you start over. Find truth on fewer and fewer assumptions. Ultimately you may find that you are not quite as certain as you were before. The same goes for the theist. In this way I am personally torn, for as a mathematician I loathe that which is not certain. I may be no wiser however, I simply thought you might instead post arguments which are truly logical, rather than those of bias. If your site is to persuade others, do so in the most truthful way. And of course, you may completely disregard all care for sharing truth. Atheist's in this way are not bound to morals, seeing as they exist merely as advanced evolutionary method to prevent entropy and destruction of life. But perspective is yours to hold.

Re: On the logic of God

(Anonymous)
you may email me at jbaq14@yahoo.com if you so desire. cheers.

Re: On the logic of God (Anonymous) Expand

there is a great intelligence

(Anonymous)
it's impossible for nothing to exist as we can clearly see, so in the beginning and always, something existed. That is why we exist. It's true to say that logic can not be broken as a circle can not be a square, but just make sure you don't mix up logic with being a thing that possesses power. Logic couldn't create a universe because it isn't a thing, but intelligence with godly abilities could (that is logical), and it seems unlikely that a non-intelligent universe would simply appear. We may be restricted to biological effects but it is clear that a greater intelligence isn't due to all the amazing features of life, which u know already. As for why this intelligence behaved the way it did, I'm not sure. Possibly because there is a rule that just is, which is that intelligence is bound by emotions and requires a relationship between something of free will (humans) to fulfil emotions. I think this because we see all sorts of relationships in everyday life ranging from small atoms etc. to human love. If intelligence did not have likes and dislikes or will then we would be here for no reason and i'd be an athiest, which i'm not. I think it would be fair to say that god(magnificent emotional intelligence) exists and that god is bound by logic but that god can break certain rules to satisfy god's will i.e. might not choose for an advanced algorithm of mass laws etc. to produce gravity at 9.8 ms-2. A combination of emotion + intelligence + logic has made life what it is.

sound_of_solos@hotmail.com

from doug, apologies if my view doesn't interest you

Just a surfer

(Anonymous)
As I write this with opposable thumbs...I ask myself how long evolution took to cause my blood to clot...That must have been "sudden"....Otherwise, I would have leaked back into the primordial ooze...

Logical Fallacies

(Anonymous)
Your definition of god is more specific than mine, since you apparently have an anti-Christian perspective. However, being myself Christian, I will use this more specific definition to shorten and simplify my response.

If, in fact, God is inherently logical [meaning that God acts in accordance with logic because that is His nature], then you can conclude God is not restricted by logic. If you can say anything, He is restricted by His character, which is a ridiculously obvious comment. Everything and everyone is restricted by its own character. A light bulb is restricted to being a light bulb (glass, tungsten, etc.), a person is restricted to being a person (bleeding, aging, etc.), and God is restricted to being God (benevolent, logical, etc.). After all, to say that one is God, is to say that He is the absolute source of absolute truth [which is, by the way, how I define god], and to be restricted by His character does not interrupt the ability of God to be the absolute source of absolute truth. In fact, you find that God’s character is the absolute source of absolute truth, and so God [the being] is not principally god, but rather God [His character] is god, because His character is what defines truth. And so to say that logic is more powerful than God is a false conclusion under this presupposition [that God is inherently logical].

So, I do believe that you can conclude that God makes choices based on logic, but to say that logic dictates His actions shows a misunderstanding in the assumption that God is inherently logical.

“If God's thoughts are logical from our Human point of view, then Human logic (as we know it) is a more powerful governor than God; if God exists it must therefore be a product of logic and therefore did not create logic.”

First off, God’s thoughts are logical to us only because He gives us a means to understand His actions: the Bible. At this point, the logic may be of humanity, but the source of creating the logical statements is not, and therefore the rest of the conclusion is moot. Rather by sharing His logic, it only goes to prove that He is the absolute source of absolute truth.

“If God's thoughts behave according to no logic, then there are no absolutes. It would be possible for god to create a square circle (an all-powerful being that doesn't obey logic would be able to) just as much as any absolute is also obsolete, but this makes a mockery of all our religion, afterlife, lives, thoughts, everything, if this is possible. It means we are completely unable to predict anything of god. It makes god worthless to us, inaccessible.”

I don’t wholly deny these logical statements, but the last phrase is a logical fallacy. If god were still willing to reveal himself, it would not necessarily be useless. Though I do agree that this unpredictable, non-absolute “god” would probably be inaccessible without constant revelation. At least in the Christian faith, it would go against God’s, absolute, never-changing nature.

“God, although all-powerful, did not create logic. God requires logic in order to think or create.”

To this statement, I say “Duh.” I have already established that my presupposition says that God behaves logically and therefore thinks and creates logically.

“If God can contain a property of "logical", then the following must be true: That the Universe, that requires no cause or creator, also can contain logic. This means that if this defen[s]e is true the Universe doesn't need God in order for logic to exist anyway.”

Once again you need to explain yourself better, because the first statement does not at all require the second to be true. I have no response to this statement because it is either utterly erroneous or utterly unsupported, but in either case, there is no way to refute it.

I have refuted every pure logic statement that “proves” there is no God of logic. I know I have not systematically proved god’s existence, but I have shown the feasibility of a God that can very be understood using logic and as a source of logic. God’s very character is logical, and is restricted by logic, not like a man locked in a prison, but more like a man locked in his own skin.

Logic and illogic

(Anonymous)
Before any comment, I'm not Christian and don't presuppose the existence or non-existence of a god.

This seems like a logical argument but I think where it falls down is that it still depends on human argument and terms of argument - which means human language (and syntax) which means human rationalisation experience which means limiting to human experience of sensory input. Without meaning to try and define god without information, it seems reasonable to assume that if god does exist then it would have to exist beyond the confines of human experience, otherwise humans would have always had all of the obtainable information about the universe. This certainly means it would have to exist beyond the confines of current human logic which means there is nothing to stop it existing around the confines of this argument as far as I can see.

It's not particularly fair for us to suppose that an ant could deal with all of the problems that the existence of an ant poses to itself, and then on top of that try and deal with understanding the existence and complete nature of even one human being. Why can we assume that the few things which humanity has discovered about things should give us any small amount of information with which to understand a god if there is one?

I don't think it's fair to rest on the laurels of human discovery when you consider that most discoveries to date have opened up far bigger cans of worms than the original discovery anyway. I'm sure there was a time when human conscious awareness was very simple and most things made sense, and I'm sure it was before all of these discoveries were made and all this logic was uncovered.

A nice little close: If god isn't within the confine of time than god isn't, or god doesn't exist (as we know those terms) - to be or to exist are actions that require time to be present as a dimension through which the action can take place.

logic a property of universe or God

(Anonymous)
[1] Most useful logical systems not complete(arithmetic for example
as Godel proved). Logic is also a function of human symbology, ie language,
and there is debate over many of the very foundations of logic, ie the metaphysics of what is even means to "exist". Such an enterprise so fraught
with imperfections, can hardly be said to be a property of the universe or God. This assumes God uses human language to think and communicate, which
even most humans know is not the only way knowledge is transmitted.
Logic on many interpretations cannot even say anything about the existence of anything in he world, logic on one main interpretation must, to really be logical, be able to be formulated by a person in a blacked out room, with no
sensory input, which is completely removed from the world and universe.
This argument needs more specific definitions for what is meant by logic to get off the ground.

LOGIC AND GOD

(Anonymous)
GOD IS A BEING THAT IS LOGICAL WHO ALWAYS EXISTED...
LOGIC IS SOMETHING USED BY HIM TO ESTABLISH YOUR ABILITY TO THINK
AND THERE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A LOGICAL REASON FOR HIS EXIXTENCE..

THE UNIVERSE EXISTS BECAUSE HE WANTED IT TO EXIST...
YOUR PARENTS WANTED YOU TO EXIST, BUT YOU PROVE IT WAS NOT FOR A LOGICAL REASON

SINCE YOU EXIST FOR NO LOGICAL REASON YOU HAVE NO PARENTS...
AT LEAST ACCORDING TO YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT LOGIC.....

Re: LOGIC AND GOD

(Anonymous)
HE'S RIGHT!

Logic and God

(Anonymous)
evan andersen

I was reading below that logic must have come before God. I really do not know how one gets to that conclusion. That is similar to saying that 1 came before 0. Do we ask ourselves is 0 a number? Or do we say that 1 or -1 is simply not 0 for definition? The scale is equal and 0 is a reference point. We always want to attch time to things but they are only relative in our own minds because we, are finite. God is logic and the sum of logic is equal to god.

evan andersen

Re: Logic and God

That's a very complicated being - consciousness, rationality, intelligence, creativity, personality - to all have come from nothing!

Logic and God

(Anonymous)
Logic does not exist! Logic is merely the application of reason to a defined set of premisis. Logic needs an intelligence to exist at all.

Re: Logic and God

In order to think intelligently there first has to be an underlying logic, otherwise all thoughts would be random and illogical.

Nice to see logic being used with regards to God.. a few comments..

(Anonymous)
Peace be upon you,

I just found these pages today while I was looking for 'for' and 'against' arguments for God's existence. I am hoping to make a youtube video that considers logic and any conclusions that can be made regarding God/religion - I shall post a link if of any interest.

I have adopted a Richard Dawkins' opinion: 'There's no limit to the number of things you can justify once you abandon logic' (in an interview with Huw Edwards, BBC). Thus, religion must be PROVEN to be TRUE before I will accept any answers it offers.

I am open to logical reasoning that there is no God, but I am not sure the arguments in part 1 are logical.

In 'Logic is more powerful than God', the argument is:
'If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic created God, is all-powerful and restrains God.' Correctly, it might read something like:
(1) If there is a logical reason why God exists, then we have used logic to reason God exists.
(2) Then our logical reasoning created our understanding of God.
(3) Logical reasoning then restrains our understanding of God.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

In respect to 'God's thoughts':
(1) 'If God has logical thoughts then logic is more powerful than God' - Why could a God not also have illogical thoughts? i.e. free will to use logic or not use logic... Just because he decides to makes us with rules of logic does not imply he is not free to do otherwise.
(2) 'If God's thoughts are logical from our Human point of view, then Human logic (as we know it) is a more powerful governor than God; if God exists it must therefore be a product of logic and therefore did not create logic' - similar to 'Logic is more powerful than God', just because we are using logic to understand (i.e. 'create' in our minds) God, does not mean God did not create logic.
(3) 'God, although all-powerful, did not create logic.' - I think omnipotentence refers to power over all things (what we can understand to be 'all things' i.e. science-bound entities) rather then power to do anything. I shall post some comments regarding 'The Universe cannot be younger than God or Logic is more powerful than God' on the provided reply page if I get a response on these comments (just to show me its still active).
(4) 'If God can contain a property of "logical", then the following must be true: That the Universe, that requires no cause or creator, also can contain logic. This means that if this defence is true the Universe doesn't need God in order for logic to exist anyway.' - the assumption here is that the universe does not need a cause/creator to have come into existence - how can you justify this assumption?
I hope I am not repeating anything that has already been posted.

Thank you in advance for any replies, and peace upon you.

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