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God and Goodness
"God and Goodness: Can a Perfectly Good God Exist? Is God Love?" by Vexen Crabtree (1999)

http://vexen.livejournal.com/86292.html contains the original page of comments for this text, please make any further debates there instead of here.

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Comments
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 15th, 2002 09:40 am (UTC) (Link)

satanism isn't a proper religion

questionsd u should ask your self

do u actually want to go to hell?

are u an evil person or like evil actions?

and are u just worshipping satan because you are
to weak in the real world and u think this will make you
powerful.

the truth is your sad and your going to be fucked all throgh your life and in the end you shall be judged and persecuted.

(also most of u probabley have a severe mental disorder so you may be ok)

and the comment to the question

if people feel loved by god and love god and they can see that god does the same to others then god is love.

why don't you do a survey and find out how many people belive in god and how many believe in satan i think the vote should be pretty
enlightening for you fuck heads.

p.s burn in hell.
vexen From: vexen Date: September 22nd, 2003 07:28 am (UTC) (Link)
1) Many Satanists consider Satanism to be a philosophy, not a religion. However, I personally do think it is a religion. (Either way, it doesn't really matter "religion" is pretty much a derogatory term anyway).

2) I don't believe in hell.
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/hell.html

3) I'm a good person and do good things

4) I'm not weak in the real world, and I'd be mostly just as strong (but have less direction) if I wasn't a Satanist.

"Do a vote"? I'm in the UK, there's not many god believers left, especially not the bigotted kind that you seem to be.
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From: (Anonymous) Date: January 4th, 2003 10:28 pm (UTC) (Link)
may you find the peace and love of jesus christ who loves you and gave his live so that you may have everlasting life through him.all makind has an empty spot that can only be filled through knowing christ jesus.may the peace of the lord jesus christ come into your life.p.s love between two human beings is indeed a beautiful thing but all love comes from god.peace be with you
From: (Anonymous) Date: July 1st, 2003 03:56 pm (UTC) (Link)

God etc....

Don't be daft ya' big wally! GOD IS LOVE!!!!! Live with it!
May all blessings fall on you.

vexen From: vexen Date: September 22nd, 2003 07:30 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: God etc....

What if God is evil, and it's apparent love is just a trick to lull us into a false sense of security?

Evil God:
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html
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From: (Anonymous) Date: September 22nd, 2003 06:19 am (UTC) (Link)

God is Love

Read the article that to say God is Love is inhumane. I totally disagree - whoever wrote that article doesnt know God let alone His love otherwise he could never have written what he has.
There are four kinds of love (or is it 3?)
1. Eros - which is essentially selfish - self-gratification.
2. Filial - which is 'brotherly' love
and
3. Agape love - which is unconditional love, i.e. totally unselfish and self-giving, with no ulterior motives to it.

It is this unconditional love that God has for us. This love respects our free will to love or not to love each other. But essentially all love exists in him and through him.
vexen From: vexen Date: September 22nd, 2003 07:22 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: God is Love

I'm familiar with the three greek/hebrew types of love.

But, these particulars seem more like repition of the basic premises of Christianity than an actual attempt at debating the text of the page!
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 22nd, 2003 09:34 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't believe in God, but sometimes, (it happened today) I feel a wonderful and unexplained lack of boundary between myself and other people. For no particular reason! I was out shopping, and it's cold and wet where I live, in Lincolnshire, England. Looking at the people around me I felt a great warmth flowing between us, as if we were one being. Love is everywhere and nowhere. Maybe we should just cherish each other, be kind to all living creatures, look after the planet ( which IS the Garden of Eden. Despite what the bible says, we never left it) and not worry our heads too much about God.
vexen From: vexen Date: October 22nd, 2003 11:54 am (UTC) (Link)
Your lucky to get experience like that (it's normal), as long as they don't go to your head :-)
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From: (Anonymous) Date: January 29th, 2004 12:01 am (UTC) (Link)
The teaching of god is love that most religions espouse is not one to "lull you into a false sense of security" - that statement itself is born out of fear, which I'm sure that even as an atheist, you must realise is limiting to your own personal development and sense of freedom.

God is love cannot be inhumane - if it is spoken by a human, then it is humane. Humanity is the entire scope of human experience, warts and all. Love is clearly a powerful and ambiguous concept, yet everyone knows it when they see it. Those who say that God is love are not attributing love to an all-powerful overseer who 'directs' from above. It is far simpler and far more beautiful than that. You are right - the love we feel for each other is due to our body chemistry, physical attraction, psychological attraction et cetera, but the beauty of it all is JUST THAT.

This wonderful situation we find ourselves in where such an inconceivable beauty can arise from what is essentially energy (matter) - that love can arise from matter IS the beauty and people use the word god because it is all encompassing - because it includes everything - not just the emotion that people feel as love, but the love of all human emotions - the love that causes guilt, hatred, fear, sympathy, empathy, jealousy - the love that holds a person, a society, a universe together just for the sake of it; the love that exists beyond what we recognise as manifest existence (matter can only know matter).

I prefer to understand love in the term 'god is love' as meaning that god is the REASON why we love. People love each other. Chemistry, energy, matter, mind. But why? Why does what scientists and all reasonable poople understand as just another conglomeration of energy interacting with itself cause us to feel love? Because it does. Because it is. Because, for want of a better word, god is.

niceprice@hotmail.com
From: (Anonymous) Date: March 2nd, 2004 12:58 pm (UTC) (Link)

God is love because we are God

When someone says that God is love, I do believe they are accurate because I see God as an entity inside of us all that produces love. The points made in the essay hold true if you think of God as some domineering entity outside of us who is out of our reach but controlling us all like a puppet master. However, I think of God as a part of myself and therefore the love produced from God is still love being produced from within me. I got my ideas about the nature of God from reading a trilogy of books called "Conversations with God". They are very enlightening and will reveal many errors in your ideas about what God is and is not. Please keep in mind that I am not promoting religion in any way. I think that most of your assertions hold true when talking about the God that most monotheistic religions preach about, but I don't believe that their version of God is accurate. Just because the God they talk about does not exist does not mean that there is no God, period. You have to keep seeking for the truth. Don't just give up and declare to the world that God does not exist. Read "Conversations with God" and you will see the truth. Peace and love.
From: (Anonymous) Date: March 19th, 2004 03:11 am (UTC) (Link)

God is Love

I can't believe people who state God is Love have actually read the bible. Everywhere you look in this pile of trash there are examples of genocide, intolerance, cruelty, and propaganda. The only wisdom visible is that stolen from the Sumerians, Babylonians, Egyptians, and Greeks. The Biblical Christ was a hypocrite of the worst kind, guilty of advocating every sin he told others they must not commit, his 'father' Yahweh is a tyrant of unrivalled proportions and the Holy Ghost is as potent as Casper the friendly Ghost.

Re read your bibles with an open mind - I dare you.
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 1st, 2006 01:44 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: God is Love

youre just reading the old testament! Thats the made up god that smites people and gets jealous, if youre gonna believe that, u might as well believe in a big guy up in the sky that shoots lightning bolts at you, which is rediculous.
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From: (Anonymous) Date: April 19th, 2004 08:07 am (UTC) (Link)

God is Love

Unfortunately all, to some extent, have no clue what this statement is saying. God IS Love for the simple reason that He knows what is/has/and is going to happen and still allows us to continue living even in disobedience to Him. Even those who question who God is and even if He really exists, know in the deepest recesses of their minds that God is the whole point of living. There are those that try to find a loophole in the contract that we have with God (The one that states that we love one another{Saved or Unsaved} Under Jesus' Sacrifice) to follow ideologies(eg. satanism,allah,budism) while thinking incorrectly that there is no Hell and that if they are good people and do good things they will go to heaven. That rationalization escapes me, and a large number of people, as a logical reality. To be more direct; There is NO front without a back, NO up without down, NO dark without light, NO good without evil. And to answer your boiling questions God does not carry the cofusions of duality. God has been recognized by the characteristics of Light, Benevolence, and a term created by humans as Godliness. This Stonefaced resistence to submitting to God(Jesus)is confusing, to say the least. God that will protect you and provide for ALL of your Needs and Desires Requireing ONLY your love, trust, and Obedience. To verify what I am saying to you I suggest READing the
B.I.B.L.E.(Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth)
It will show you the reasons God has for destroying us and the reasons why He has not. If you still don't believe; Pray that You are right.
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 1st, 2006 01:45 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: God is Love

who ever told you god was a man?
From: (Anonymous) Date: April 29th, 2004 12:18 am (UTC) (Link)

Re-read the Bible

No denying that the Bible lists all kinds of crazy goings on, but the point is that these were carried out by man, brought about by man, starting from getting kicked our of the garden of eden and then Cain and Able and on and on. The point being that without God and people choosing to accept that God is Love these types of behaviors will continue, perhaps not by you or me but by someone. The point is that man needs salvation.

We can have the best intensions to live morally but we are fallable beings bound to make mistakes, we can be tempted, we can have moments of weakness, we sin (who actually admits to this these days ?).

With regards to the God is Love statement being inhumane. Consider this for a moment - God brought love into this world and we wouldn't even have the capacity to love without him. Our ability to love thus comes from God and by loving someone you are essentially sharing God's love through your acts, through your love. As you say, it is your choice to share your love or not. When you do you are sharing in God's love and it is coming from your will. And yes, without God our bodies, emotions etc. would be worthless, it would be like a tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it........the very fact that you feel that our bodies, chemistry, emotions and love as something special is an indication that a loving God exists. God is love and we are all connected by it.
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 25th, 2004 01:16 am (UTC) (Link)

God Is Love

God is love i help to define once more. The love we feel for each other is because God created us to love. He created Eve for Adam to love. He created us so He can love us. And He still does and that's why He gave us His beloved Christ. And therefore those who believes in God experience the ultimate feeling of Love. The real actual euphoria that TRUE love gives. And true love is God. God's love is UNFAILING. So what if two people love each other. It is utterly impossible for 2 people to remain in love especially in a world like this these days. But God loved us, loves us and will love us till way way after we reunite with Him at the heaven's gates. This is what we Christians believe in and it is FAR more beautiful and pleasant than believing in some devilish "philosophy" which is a huge lie Satan instilled in Satanists. Why do people hate Christians when like other religions it teaches moral values and righteousness, at the same time unlike others we are more than a religion. We have a relationship with God. He is our Father. Just like fathers love their sons He loves us. So get it in your head that it is true and since God is the truth why don't you believe in God. Furthermore God CREATED Satan Himself. Yup the GOD you worship. And remember who you are against. Your god's God. Even Satan admits God IS God but he wants people in hell with him that's why he pulls people like you pessimistic believers with him and lie to you. But honestly I do not hate Satanists nor discriminate you guys but yea I'd really hope to see you guys come to know the Lord our God, our wonderful Saviour. In Jesus' name. Love *Karie. God bless you =)
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 1st, 2006 01:50 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: God Is Love

i think youre absolutely rediculous, you dont know what god is. I bet when you pray, its just nealing down and asking for shit. you shoul re evaluate your life and get things in order.
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 31st, 2004 12:29 am (UTC) (Link)

"GOD IS LOVE"

GOD and LOVE are, I think, the two most misunderstood words in the universe. But when these are understood and practiced intelligently, something very positive will happen to human beings- we will become our true loving, wonderful selves and will be beautifully-empowered to heal and help our fellow beings. Priestcraft and preachercraft are the living antithesis of Love- the "unGod" if you will- so naturally what these "unGods" impart to the unsuspecting ones is a hypnotic blend of love and hate, good and evil, fear and hope, war and peace, life and death which are malevolently combined with a sense of mass opiate-like subservient powerlessness and non individual self-determination. This mix makes of one a "supplicant" and a "child" who is enslaved to the parental-authoritarian craft of the masters of memerism- the so-called priest and preacher. This crap has nothing to do with the man Jesus- and yes- he was a man, but he was spiritual man who sought to teach others of their real transcendant spiritual and loving, noble natures.

Byron
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 18th, 2004 01:19 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: "GOD IS LOVE"

GOD is LOVE is the truest sentence possible.

It does not undermine anybody else. It is the person's failures who have undermined himself/herself.

Agape,
uvanessas
From: (Anonymous) Date: February 2nd, 2005 09:32 pm (UTC) (Link)

God is love

Can someone help me? I'm in a hurry and I need to know where the quote 'God is love' came from in the bible, I need to know really quickly 2/2/05
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 31st, 2005 03:31 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: God is love

1 John 4:8
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From: (Anonymous) Date: October 10th, 2005 11:58 am (UTC) (Link)
You haven't really tried to appreciate what the expression "God is Love" actually means, and like many people who knock religion you've just jumped to conclusions in order to help contrive an anti-religious stance based on parading your ignorance as sound judgement.

I am an agnostic, it means you can't prove anything one way or the other as far as I'm concerned, but I can at least appreciate the intelligence behind the religious argument: The expression does not translate as anything so lame as the notion that love only comes from God. Sensible religious people are universally interested in manifesting love as an attitude towards others, manifesting this attitude towards all other sentient beings. So obviously they don't think God is the only source of love, they believe it is something you can let yourself feel if only you stop fighting. God is love is the simplest and most profound possible expression of the religious ideal but you have taken no care in corrupting it through the vehicle of a clumsy rephrasing. The expression "God is Love" means God = love, God is synonymous with love, and the worship of God is therefore the practice of developing, through understanding, a genuine unpretentious expression of love, and of caring for the wellbeing of others as the highest act of moral good. Love underpins the undetaking of the development of the most humane possible outlook on life. God is the Hebrew word that Means love. This is what is meant by God is love: To worship love and to worship God are united in the fact they have no difference in meaning. So when people say they worship God they mean, although they may not know it yet, that they worship Love.

God, is just a universally applicable term for everything that is, and everything that happens. It doesn't just refer to some ghostly old man with a white beard who flies in the sky. That's just an expedient icon. The root word for "Happiness" is [i]what happens[/i], like "Hap" that just means what occurs out of nowhere. So happiness means what is happening, so if you could see how things really were and achieve unity instead of just interpreting things through your discriminating, judgemental, maladaptive mind, you would also see that God, Love, Happiness and Universe are all words that describe exactly the same thing: Everything. In such a case you would realise that there is no need to choose one thing in place of another.

Religious practice is the story of Pinocchio, the story of a fake, a confused individual becoming identical with what is real.

I hope you make that story come true for yourself and receive the glory of love, i.e. the Acceptance of everything that presents itself to you as real, without contriving to make a hostile response based on what is contrived or imagined.

WAKE UP.
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 10th, 2005 07:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:8
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From: (Anonymous) Date: October 11th, 2005 06:53 am (UTC) (Link)

There are two kinds of Love!

Nice journal and I can understand where you are coming from. The love between two souls is beautiful and can be a dynamic intermingling of the very essence of who we are. The love that two souls share with one another, however, is what may be referred to as the natural love. There is another love in the universe called Divine Love. This is the Love that eminates from God and is has the potential to transform our souls into Divine beings at-one with God. Every soul has the natural love to a more or lesser extent. The Divine Love path, however, is a chosen path to become At-one with God. We chose to receive Divine Love by praying with earnestness and sincerity for God to send His Love into our souls. So you see "God is Love" is a true and accurate statement and takes nothing away from the natural love that exists between two souls. Check out divineloveministry.org for more. - Blessings, Michael
From: (Anonymous) Date: January 21st, 2006 10:19 pm (UTC) (Link)

hey

Just because your an athiest doesn't mean your a bad person. I believe there is a God and I have a friend whose an athiest and he's a nice Guy. First of all what is love according to the biblical text. Love is Patient, Kindness, Compassionate, Gracious, Merciful, and loyalty. These are the character of God. In the beggining God made Mankind in God's image. God's image means his character. Therefore God called Human his child because they have his character, not his slaves. For example, you guys have mothers and fathers. They sort of look like you and act like you. You might have thier skin color, hair color, personality, and character. You might develop some character or personality of your own, but the fact that you have your parent's DNA is a proof that you are thier child. This is the same way like God. He made Man in his own image to declare them his child. God also had freewill, he could do whatever he wants but chooses not to do soIf there is a God and God made man in his own image, then God also planted freewill in man. Ask yourself this, Why did God allow man to leave Him? because of freewill, God can't force anyone, that is a contrary of love. When people reflect some character such as kindness that shows God's character just like a child shows a kind of humor his father has. Doesn't mean your his slave. You can preform kindness in many different ways but that reflects God's love. Even if you don't believe in God, and If there is a God, you still can preform good deeds or reflect good character because you have freewill. If there is a God and you preform such things, then you are basically reflecting some of God's character. You might ask, why do we preform hateful deeds or character? well It's because of sin, and when sin came into this world we were seperated from God and lost alot of his character. We instead develop negative character such as selfishness. However there are some remaining character of God within us. It just means you resemble God in some ways, Doesn't mean your God's robot slave. Your love can resembe in God in someways. Your emotions can resemble in God in someway as well but that doesn't mean your emotion is not independent of God. You practice or use your emotions independently because that is freewill. You can preform negative or positive emotions based on your freewill. So basically heres my point, you have freewill. That's a beautiful thing. No one can take that away from you even God himself. God chooses to never take away freewill from anyone because it is his will that man should have free will to choose Him or not. So if you want to be an athiest, thats fine with me and God (if there is a God), You have freewill and that allows you to do anything you want. (I don't encourage doing immoral things, but you still have freewill).
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 1st, 2006 02:06 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: hey

are you saying that man came before sin? sin is such an ugly word, lets use error.
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 22nd, 2006 12:50 am (UTC) (Link)

God is love

Well, of course our feelings of love come from our own bodies and chemistry. Our physical makeup and our emotions are what make us what we are. But we were given all these things by God. The same God who created all things in our universe. Physics, science, mathematics, thoughts, and emotions. To say that God is Love in no way undermines one's ability to feel, give or receive love from other human beings or God. God Himself is Love. He gave us the ability to love. We can attribute that facet of ourselves to God or not. It does not change the fact that He did.

Most people in the world don't understand God, and are largely ignorant of His ways. Much like most people don't understand physics or math. Just because one does not understand physics doesn't mean that physics have no effect on that one person. And because one does not believe Love comes from God in no way diminishes the preciousness of what God has given to them.

In fact, I submit that the notion that Love comes from God makes our Love MORE special, not irrelevant. If our Love is not a gift from a benevolent creator, if there is no God, and if there is on higher power enabling us to feel something special and unique, then our feelings of love are mere chemical reactions. Indeed, our very existence, and everything we feel for each other and strive to accomplish is for naught. Without a loving creator, we are but step in a random evolution of matter, void of meaning or purpose. Without God our feelings of love are a mere illusion and utterly irrelevant.
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 9th, 2006 09:41 pm (UTC) (Link)

i beg to differ.

God is Love.
When you show a person love, you show them God.
to show a person God is a miracle.
you don't have to say "i believe in god" to believe in love.
you don't have to KNOW that you believe in god to know that love exists.
yet, the words "god" and "love" are interchangable.
a person's dignity is measured by how much he loves and is loved.
and within that is god.
it is not that god reveals himself when he feels it necessary.
it is that god needs to be revealed and loved by your loving others.
god is love.
From: (Anonymous) Date: September 11th, 2007 02:53 am (UTC) (Link)

re: god is love

in your writing on the topic of "god is love", you state that this is an inhuman sentiment. I think you have made a vital error in your evaluation of what monotheists mean when they say god is love.
in your description of love you imply that it is merely a feeling. Love is not a feeling and should not be confused with infatuation. when two people "fall in love", they are merely infatuated.
When we say god is love we mean something entirely different. we say love is "selflessness" and not a feeling. love is a decision and an act of selflessness. some examples would be the crucifixion of christ, the work of mother theresa, dr martin luther king jr, mahatma gandhi, etc. small scale examples would be when a husband doesnt cheat on his spouse even though he is tempted, because god is faithful to him, and he wants to selflessly ( i. e. out of true love) remain loyal even though cheating would feel great. if i made a decision to raise my kids regardless of what i had to do for them, even if it meant dying for them, that is selfless love. how much more so selfless it would be if i were willing to die for my enemy out of selfless love. this is the love that is meant when christians say "god is love".
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 23rd, 2007 12:08 am (UTC) (Link)

God is Love

I undersatand where you are coming from with your point of view because I too had the same view before God ,Who created you and me, placed His Holy Spirit in me. The Scriptures reveal that it is impossible for you, who does not possess God's Holy Spirit, as I do, to understand God's love. You can only understand in accordance with the ability God has given you. Some day God may put His Spirit in you, as He has done for many others throughout the years, and then you will understand, but until then you are blind to the Truth. I know this will upset you because you believe you are capable of more than you really are. Someday God will humble you as He does all of us. Right now He is allowing you to carry on with your foolishness. The only reason you will not search the Scriptures and come to Christ is because of your hidden sins but they will soon be revealed. Then you will fall on your knees before your creator in awe.
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 25th, 2007 02:56 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: God is Love

I have been a believer all my life until recently. After I really read the Word of God. It is full of murders, lies, contradiction, and the worse genocide ever> even worse than Hitler. ANd all done in the name of God and God is Love? Read your bible and tell me I'm wrong> Read it and don't take what other people tell you is says. READ IT
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 26th, 2007 11:28 pm (UTC) (Link)

God Is Love

First, let me begin by saying that I don't believe in organized religion as I find that there is truth in all the true religions. Now with that said, I truly hope that all of you who claim to be Atheist have researched the history of the world's religions. We are all connected in a spiritual sense. When you walk down the street and something unexpected happens or a stranger says something to you, don't you feel as if you were meant to be there at that given moment? Don't you feel the need to LOVE, not in the humanistic term in which you are applying is hurtful, but in a higher state of mind that rings to your core/soul/heart. Even if you don't believe, please know that it is you who have turned your back on God, but God still Love's you. We are all children of God and this child of God hopes you find your way home. www.godislove.org

You all are in my prayers...
vexen From: vexen Date: March 7th, 2010 06:37 pm (UTC) (Link)
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