2005

vexen

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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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2005
vexen

Do we have to experience evil?

"The Experience of Evil Theodicy"

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If you had any sense at all, you'd know that your arggument was entirely one-sided. In order to prove Christians wrong, you have to PROVE them wrong i.e. use their Bible. Point out somewhere in the Bible where God was immoral or Evil.

Proven? Read the Bible

(Anonymous)

2003-12-31 03:26 pm (UTC)

God did many things that we are taught not to do. There are celebrated examples of divine genocide all the way through the Old Testament: the great flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing all the Egyptian First-born to let the Israelites escape Egypt, the fall of Jericho... to name but a few. You just have to pay attention in sunday school :)
I'll say God did set a good example for Hitler, although Hitler can't quite match the scale of deaths...

~Azazel~

God was Evil (Anonymous) Expand
Re: God was Evil (Anonymous) Expand
(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand

Tim's thoughts...

(Anonymous)

2003-05-14 10:45 pm (UTC)

That would be the Calvinistic ideal of thought about Christianity. I personally believe God is playing a game of sorts, with himself. He either 1: is insecure about himself and needs people to choose to love him, 2: decided to make people suffer, giving them choices but inevitably knowing their doom, or 3: is evil himself, and decides to mislead people into a deceiving trap and we all are going to burn anyway. I just think he's in for the fun of it. We don't have free will, He knows before he creates us as a fetus that we are going to choose to burn in Hell. He knows the past, present, and future, right? Therefore, he knows who will serve him. The angels are dumb. They haven't figured this out yet? Oh well, it's none of my business. I'm going to die, just the same as everyone else.

There is a loving God that will forgive you!

(Anonymous)

2003-11-29 09:06 pm (UTC)

The best part about God is you can write all these thoughts about him and he still loves you. He can forgive you for these false teachings. I pray you change your thoughts and look at God as a personal friend.

Re: There is a loving God that will forgive you!

(Anonymous)

2004-05-24 03:35 pm (UTC)

Sometimes, God should forgive himself...
So the Lord sent pestilence upon Israel and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. And God sent an angel unto Jeruselem to destroy it and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld and he repented him of the evil and said to the angel that destroyed, "It is enough, stay now thine hand". (ibid)




This is worth reading

(Anonymous)

2003-12-05 11:47 pm (UTC)

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/evil/bosnia.htm

A third way

(Anonymous)

2003-12-08 10:20 pm (UTC)

If God is everything, then God is both moral and immoral (and the world reflects that){I believe Jesus is alleged to have told his associates that there is no sin, except what they call sin.) Under these circumstances, God then is neither moral nor immoral and is therefore amoral. Morality, like evil, is a human-in-the-space-time, egocentric world construct. The third way is spiritual (aka moral) anarchy wherein each and every person "kills" their ego and surrenders to God as Creator in the ongoing, "everlasting" emergence and unfoldment. If God and Creation are yin-yang, plus/minus, then we have a problem: there will always be pain, suffering, and other dark stuff happening and no chance of the Universe and God transcending space-time unless there is some kind of "perfect" balance / harmony -- ie all humans are good, loving and joyful and every volcano on the planet is popping off, etc -- or some other ultimate "good" that resides out there in the land of uncertainty.

johnmcdonagh

(Anonymous)

2003-12-09 12:11 pm (UTC)

We have to be begin to understand we are locked behind our senses. That is our senses or collectively our consciousness is limited, but not confined.
How do we know? How do we know we know…the answer is we don’t but relative to what we did know and some objective evidence we judge something right or wrong (This I call marginal sense use). Take the study of most scientific endeavours and you shall find no end stage, no beginning with an end point, just more theory. The answer at this end is that we just don’t know.
Imagination and science are attempts to go beyond the senses in order to provide possible clues/answers to hard or paradoxical questions. It has to be understood that paradox signals the limit of human consciousness at this point in time. To go beyond paradox requires an understanding of consciousness and a willingness to increase the developmental evolution of consciousness. Questions such as god, infinity, good and evil could be to us what a human being is to a bacterium. The consciousness distance between being able to know that you have a question and what that question is may have a dimensional context that our consciousness has not reached.
The feeble attempts to answer questions such as ‘Why are free market mechanisms not perfect’ betray themselves as questions beyond our evolutional dimensional consciousness. This is also the problem for A.I. ‘Why won’t the thing think for us if we give it enough information?’ We can go on collecting knowledge but if we are not conscious of why we collect knowledge or by attempting to answer these questions with reference to the big questions – paradoxes, we are effectively citing knowledge as the precursor to greater consciousness; It is this that I disagree with for if I don’t see what I know then I am blind! If greater consciousness begets greater knowledge then perhaps then the big questions will yield; but the paradox of consciousness and knowledge is the paradox of the chicken and the egg.
An example might elucidate this idea. A foetus must have written within it’s DNA an algorithm either for consciousness leading to learning or learning leading to consciousness. What comes first? Perhaps knowledge has blinded us to the pursuit of consciousness and that more attention to consciousness is in order, yes, yes I know this is also the pursuit of knowledge.

jmcb3@lycos.co.uk

happiness v sorrow

(Anonymous)

2003-12-31 03:16 pm (UTC)

I think of it this way: Christians tell us that there is no suffering or sorrow in Heaven, yet joy cannot exist on it's own - how would we recognise it without a contrast? Therefore either there is both suffering and joy, no emotion at all, or no Heaven.
Personally Earth is my only idea of Heaven - my search for knowledge more important than knowledge itself, and the challenges more exciting than the rewards. If God cannot cater for every individuals' personal tastes then he is not a perfect God, or he takes free will from us.
Which is it to be, Christians?

Love in Satan
~Azazel~

Ow this site hurts my eyes... I would love to read the rest of it pain-free, you couldnt make it black on white instead?? :P

~Azazel~

the free will theodicy is not something that can be used as a conclusion to saying there is no god you cannot prove this with petty words about heaven about heaven and suffering, the real truth is far beyond anyones grasp

The real truth is certainly beyond your grasp, but perhaps you should work out more of the issues raied in the essay if you don't understand how the conclusion is verified. If you think it isn't justified, provide some comments saying why. Assertions are useless, engage with some philosophy/theology or the truth certainly will never darken your door.

Before Adam choose to sin, he did not know evil. The garden of Eden, like heaven was not an evil place. In order for free will to exist, only the posiblity of evil needs to exist.

a sin in its essence as we understand the word is evil.
if adam chose to sin, he knew evil. He was told specifically not to eat from that particular tree so he sinned, however, If, as I understand it he was told not to eat from the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil"
he could not possibly understand what evil meant because he had not yet eaten of it.
Then I must ask what kind of idiot creator would put a tree containing the knowledge of good and evil on the earth let alone right in front of them, if he didn't want them to know about good and evil.
I will not put a handful of broken glass, a bottle of poisonous chemicals or a loaded handgun in front of my child, tel them not to touch it and walk away. Do you know why? because they will touch it. I know it and I am only a human. If god didn't know they would eat it them he/she/it/they is either completly stupid or evil in every sense of the word because though you and I never ate thae fruit we are punished for it.

Free Will

(Anonymous)

2004-03-08 12:19 am (UTC)

YOUR TEXT:
Free Will Defence of Evil
The existence of Evil, despite their being an all-powerful, benevolent creator, is normally explained away by saying that free will is more important than happiness, that it has a higher moral worth. Allowing us to choose between good and evil, and creating us so that we are capable and inclined to do so, is more important than there being no suffering.

MY COMMENT:
God is not all powerful. How can God be all powerful if man has Free Will? Since man has Free Will, he makes his own choices. God does not directly control us, therefore man controls part of his destiny. This is partially what is meant by God 'creating Man in his own image.' Man has creative powers -- power to choose, like God does.

As for Good and Evil -- God is Goodness, his creation is good and man is his great work. All creation is good. Evil arises when Man is self-decieved into thinking that he can benefit from ignoring the happness of others, and rewarding himself without regard to others. This is egotisim, vanity, narcisisim, or psychosis or worse.
-----------

YOUR TEXT:
Heaven
There is no suffering in heaven, and no Evil. This is our assumption. Also, as Free Will is more valuable than lack of suffering, if heaven is a more valuable place then the beings who exist in heaven must also have Free Will.

An Argument Against God
Heaven is a place where there is free will, but no evil. This means that the evil and suffering which exist are not necessary for free will. This means that the free will theodicy is not valid.


MY COMMENT:
Heaven is a condition of the mind (soul) you are free to go there, or to leave. You are free to come or go. To be in heaven is to love others, it is to live in a conscious awareness of others in that love. This is joy of life. Certainly there is free will in Heaven. All creative acts are a celebration of this great love of creation and others who are ourt fellows.

And you are right that Free Will is not justified by there being good and evil - evil is a miss step and problem created as a by-product of Free Will combined with lack of Heavenly awareness, lack of 'joy of life' awareness.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/goddeniesfreewill.html

Explains more clearly why "free will" and "omnipotent god" cannot both exist.

There is a Heaven

(Anonymous)

2004-04-28 02:51 pm (UTC)

Okay, I'm sorry to say but you guys are WAY OFF.. if you would like to prove us christians wrong I would first recomend you to actually pick up a bible,(you obviously haven't because you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about) god didn't create evil, god just gave man the idea to choose and he wants people who believe in him to be in his kingdom, not people like you who question his existance. And also, the devil was created to tempt you so god could tell who was worthy enough to come into heaven. The devil creates evil not god. But there is still hope for you because god is a loving god who will forgive you, no matter what you do, hopefully you'll get on the right path soon, because you are way off right now. god loves you even if you don't love him back... try to look at the other point of view so you really know what your saying, because im not sure you know what your talking about:-/.... hopefully you get help somewhere, try going to church;-)

Re: There is a Heaven

(Anonymous)

2004-05-21 06:15 pm (UTC)

Actually I have read the Bible and the Koran and found them both interesting in some places and boring in others. I've also read Catch22 and found it to be better in many respects, but mostly because I laughed more. There arn't many jokes in the other books.
Seriously though, I used to believe in God and decided to read the Bible VERY carefully. Big mistake! It stopped me believing. I can't explain why in such a small space, but you try it and I bet you will find the same. Make notes while you read it and as you go you will start to find ideas and stories that make you check back though your notes. Gradually a pattern will imerge... go on... trust me!

I recently thought of the Author's argument and assumed my idea was new. Blast ! Someone else has thought of it ! I even thought I should write a book with this argument as one of the key ideas, but I am now discouraged. Unlike most people, I HAVE read the Bible, all of it, more than once, very carefully and it convinced me that it's mostly stories or rough history and primitive explanations with a bit of poetry thown in for good measure. For those who can't be bothered to read it all, I recommend the sermon on the mount, especially the bit about praying in private and not as the heathen do, in public and not praying the same thing over and over again, as if God will hear you better for all that. Then go into a Church where you hear the things Jesus said are wrong !

What next ?

(Anonymous)

2004-05-21 06:39 pm (UTC)

OK, I am willing to accept that God DOES exist. That will save a lot of time.
Also, I promise not to sin. Anything else?

No problem

(Anonymous)

2004-05-25 05:16 pm (UTC)

I am told that God loves me.
I am also told I will burn in hell for eternity.

As someone once wrote,
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible,
It ain't necessarily so.

Why are there so many religions

(Anonymous)

2004-05-25 05:19 pm (UTC)

There are millions of religions and millions of Gods. If you only believe one, you are probable wrong. So I think it's best to believe in every one. Just in case.

I must be perfect

(Anonymous)

2004-05-25 05:21 pm (UTC)

God is a perfect designer.
Everything God designs is perfect.
God designed me.
Therefore I am perfect.

Who the hell on this Earth is perfect? no one so anyone stating that is full of crap!!!!!! I believe that God is inheriently evil I also believe that man is not the centre of creation at best he is only a caretaker, of the Earth for this lying God at the most he is nothing but a slave for these spirit creatures.

If we belive the central theme for most of these religions , God has created the Earth Perfec then all of a sudden some spirit creature close to God rebelled and man was broght low by this creature in this Gods eye, right?

I say this is a lie how do we not know that these spirit creatures both "good" and "bad" aren't just using us for an elaborate experiment? How do we not know that this creature God isn't using one of his own most high Sons as an evil patsy to be evil ? Do not we experiment with animal's even on each other? and not just physically but mentally as well?

If we a completly stupid species can do(it took us nearly 6000 or billoins of years to go and explore the damn moon for pete's sake, depending if you believe in God or Evolution, especailly thanks to Christianty or namely the incredibly backard Roman Catholic Church) that then what about this so called "God of Love" as he likes to call himself hmmmmm?

There are still people on here who like to delude themselves in the false comfort that God is good and loves all and forgives all (the biggest lie in all creation!!!)fail to look at the evidence of the Bible that God is not always good God is both as we can be both and we are considered imperfect creatures according to this God , Our forefather and mother ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, supposedly, this God didn't yet this god was still capable of killing billions when it suited him to kill them so obvouisly , especially in today's politcally correct climate A God lik this would be considered to be worse than Hitler.

And an awful lot of Christians are going to be unpleastly suprised if Judgement Day turns up very soon , seeing as it is they who say that only one Christian faith will get through, the rest will be destroyed , along with thier followers, now seeing as there are thousands of denominations of Christianty with people who geniunely follow this denominations and cling to them because they wish not to be tempted by "false prophets" who but a completely evil God would kill all those dead even if they genunely believed that they were following Gods Will but just in the wrong denomination

You would't kill those people if your being reasonable, you would simply guide them to the right religion, This God won't on Judgement day I think there is a passage where the so called Son of Man says on his fathers behave "Get away from me, I never knew you" That prove's that this God is evil and is a bigger liar than his other Son he dosen't "like" to talk about Satan

Also this afterlife, anyone ever come back from "Hell"? which is only as far as I understand it , an old Greek word which means the grave, from the backward religions at first it was supposed to mean existing without God was "Hell" then it got somehow changed into this situation where Satan "burns the bad people for God?"????? what crap, if Satan is God's enemy do you really think he would so stupid as to do that? LOL it would be such a propaganda coue for

God is Evil and a Liar

(Anonymous)

2004-07-17 04:31 pm (UTC)

Sorry, can't edit my last post (damn pop up ads)
It would be such a proaganda coue for God, I think if there is no afterlife there would be one then so every being who ever lied would see what this Satan creature did. And anyone come back from Heaven to say how lovely it is up there?

Also , why not have an afterlife where you could see your mistakes and be put on a planet where you could learn more to be good , then , if you are ressurected bck on Earth you can help those who are weaker in faith or have problems or even you could be a lot more kind and understanding than you where first time around, Does things like this happen? NO we can't even really communicate properly with the afterlife if there is one and the Afterlife , for centuries people were persecuted for even attempting to find out about it look what happened to King Saul in a moment of weakness so it is obvoius that this God must be evil, after all why make it so dificult to understand the afterlife if their are genuinely humans there who still need to contact people they left on this mortal plane?
Surely a so called loving God wouldn't do that would he? He would provide a way cromprehensible to His human creatures to at least be in touch and for them understand that life doesn't end at the coffin.

Does That happen ? NO, IT DOES NOT ,the things I suggest only happens in Hollywood movies. We are left to our own devices to try to get in touch with this afterlife and you don't even know if you talking to someone you knew or some spirit playing tricks with a broken heart, and according to some Christians we shouldn't enquire of the dead? Why not why can't we huh? because there problalby is no afterlife and we are not tht inportant to have one, we are really an afterthought experiment and this God creature ,if he exsists only experiments with our feelings, hopes and prayers and laughes at us behind our back and has lied ,like the religions that came from the Dawn of Creation

And another thing why destroy "the Wicked" at Armageddon? I mean he could simply remove them to another Earthstyle planet, for punishment make it more unstable, and sue those who repent after their so called wickedness back to Earth couldn't He? of course he can and , just to push out the "wicked" coming back to destroy the Earthly paradise I am sure a an All Powerful God could always frustrate plans like that, if he can't then he is not an All Powerful God especailly since , ven with super Ion Nuclear technology , there are places in the Universe which would take us billions of Years to get too and we would simply need bilions of Generations of our desecdants to simply look after the ship to get to one side of the Universe to another?


It is plainly obvoius to me why, because if this creature exists, it only creates life to have fun with it, to play with it and then mostly, to kill it off for fun. And what most so called Chirstians seem to forget is , if we are to believe this story of the Gardern of Eden is this , How does an All Good, All Perfect God create a tree which has the knowledge of both Good and Bad? that is impossible to create unless this God has a knowledge of Good and bad? Where did he get this knowledge of Good and Bad from?

Wehre indeed if he is not bothGood and Evil himself? hmmmmmmmmmmm? his"jealousy"? his "vengance?" It is obvoius that this creature is evil it even states somewhere in the bible that He even admits to being evil to those who believe that God is evil I can't remember the

Sorry stupid pop up ads again, yes as I was saying I can't remember the Scripture now but you even have it from the Horse's mouth altough in a disguised form, which means God is capable of lying, of deceit, of willful murder and of every other human atrocity and cruelty only on a massive scale, just blaming the Devil for everything makes no sense especially when you see it in those terms.

So I believe this God if he exists is evil some of His own actions prove he is evil, knowledge he has of God and Bad in a tree bearing this fruit proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he must be evil, plus the things he did in antiquity also proves he is evil, the shortening of Man' day's on the Earth(Adam and Eve's eating of this fruit has nothing to do with the rest of the Human race , which was born years after the event), the fact you can't be shown your mistakes in an afterlife, you are simply the dead, plus all the other things I could list proves if this creature exists He is the Most Evil in all the Universe. The fact he will destroy his son Satan if we believe the bible, if he does this means he is capable of premeditated murder of His creatures before they are even born, even though he created Satan for this purpose to be evil, he is worse than Satan himself because he had this knowledge of good and bad and put it in the Garden of Eden to indirectly tempt His own Earthly children into death and suffering plus His Own Spiritual children as well.

Sorry to add to this after all these months All of us are sinners apparently and we have the death sentence inherited from Adam accrding to the Bible so why Armageedon when we die we have paid for our sins?

There is no real reason for Armageddon except to utterly terroise your creations to make them yeild and to submit , just pure sadism for the fun of it is't it? and it would be to because in the Bible it says that humans live under the law of Sin so that mean every single human who lives after Adam and Eve will "fall short of the Mark" so as I suggessted why not remove them remaining "evil doers" to one or several prison planets and when they die free from sin they can be ressurected on Earth in a Perfect Paradise as Perfect Human Beings or Some even as spirits?

Because the plan must be to have humans live in guilt for the rest of eternity even when they are perfect because they will remember these times also those that die at Armageddon and will not come back on the Earth or anywhere else alive again will serve as an example to the others that to quote the Borg "Resistance is futile" And then we will then know the truth from the lies told all these Minelliums.

Humans are nothing more than exotic but worthless ants as a matter of fact lower than the ants We are just slaves no more and certainly at times less if these creatures exist Science must be open to the possibilty that such a creature or These creatures exist or it risks eventually being thought of as inflexible as a lot of these stupid religions who made such momental errors in the past (remeber the flat Earth theory?)

As for any religoius people who think I am talking crap who don't you actualy read your bibles or Korans or whatever.

Glad to read this

(Anonymous)

2004-07-18 06:00 am (UTC)

Glad to read this: it means there are people around who know how to think, instead of swallowing baseless postulations and assertions along the lines of "God is xxxx" (insert "xxxx" as required to support argument). Good stuff, keep it coming.

Attempts to understand free will

(Anonymous)

2004-08-04 08:29 am (UTC)

I was also very pleased to read this, and glad to see logic and intelligence in the arguments. Clearly, if god gave us minds and abstract thought it must have been for a reason.
I would take this argument one step further, I actually do not understand how free will can exist at all (and I'm probably not the first person to think of this either, please let me know if anyone agrees). Also, before you start bashing my post and telling me that I cannot fathom the genius of God, or that God still loves me whatever, or any other random things that have absolutely nothing to do with my argument, please read it and at least try to understand it. I would actually be extremely interested to read a good argument against my statements, one that actually makes sense and doesn't involve blind unthinking belief.

Hypothesis: God gave us free will, thus we are responsible for our actions. Without this free will, we would merely be animals, and anything we did would be God's fault as he has created us. Luckily for god, the free will makes our decisions (helps us make our decisions), so we are responsible.

Logical deduction: The free will makes our decisions. Someone accidentally born without free will would not be responsible for their actions. Now, where did the free will come from? God gave it to us. What is the nature of free will? It makes decisions. What then is the difference between having a free will and not having one, if God made it anyway? (and he made us).
Did God give everyone the same free will, or is every free will unique? If every free will is identical, then everyone would make the same decisions in the same situation, which clearly means we can't be responsible. If God gave us each a unique free will, then the decisions made by the free will are due to the makeup of the free will, which is still God's fault - thus we are still not responsible.

Basically, how can I be responsible for my actions when I didn't create my own free will?

(It may be added that I don't believe in God as I tend towards only believing in things I have evidence for, otherwise I may as well believe in just anything) - this is however one of the reasons heaven and hell make no sense to me.

Yes free will, I don't think that free will nessacrily means that a Gpod is evil or immoral but it has to be very highly probable as it needs to be able to determine what happens when it's creatures are suspiciuus with its motives or simply doesn't wish to go along with it.

It has to have experimented with other races, other human beings as test subjects before Adam and Eve to know about things like Free Will and Good and Evil, for all we know, this God might be part of another race of Gods and has created us in secret from the rest of it's race, after all in the bible it says like creates like or mixes with like so why should we believe that this God wasn't created or born itself? and the lie it tells about alway's being there is just that , A lie , also, to understand evil and how to put into a fruit good and evil it would have to take part in evil itself, or at least create a race that was so evil so it could understand evil, because free will would have to incorporate evil as part of it , the free will of individual creatures to do evil, that is one of the reasons why I said in my prevoius posts God is Evil

In heaven there is no evil, simply because there are no rules. In heaven there is no suffering because we are not physical entities and will not be capable of feeling sorrow, sadness, pain etc

Re: Free will

(Anonymous)

2005-03-29 02:09 pm (UTC)

What makes you think you will go to heaven or any of us will go to heaven? for all we know this is our function tolive on Earth because then why isit you have millions of beings in this heaven and millions on theEarth why do the ones on the Earth have to go through some type of life trial, risking destruction at Armageddon for lack of faith fornication, sex out of marridge, murder, e.tc e.tc.

What would be the point of an Earth if everyone ended up in heaven or heel?

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Perfect heaven?

(Anonymous)

2005-10-28 01:48 pm (UTC)

If God created heaven to be perfect, why do some people go to hell? I consider myself a moral person but I don't believe in God. Will I go to hell?

If that is the case people who love me and believe in God will go to heaven without me. How can a God who created a perfect place, a veritable utopia, let people who love me miss me? According to free will they should miss me, I know I would if I had free will in heaven and loved someone who went to hell. They should even feel bad for my eternal damnation, but that feeling shouldn't exist in heaven, it's a perfect place, right?

The only way God can remedy the loss of a loved one going to hell is by somehow replace that person/soul with a copy, that copy must be every thing I am, flaws and imperfections. I suppose God could be able to do that, and if he did I would exist in heaven, even though I don't deserve to.

This means that 'sinners' and 'blasphemers' exist in heaven. Let's face it, even Hitler probably had someone who loved him and went to heaven. That would mean Hitler or rather Hitlers copy is also in heaven. It wouldn't matter that it is a copy though, because the copy is everything the original was and would be just as evil and misguided.

Re: Perfect heaven?

(Anonymous)

2005-12-08 11:07 pm (UTC)

Where to begin. Okey first off. God never created evil. Evil was a byproduct of free will. Satan (lucifer) decided that he wanted to commit an act against God, he was thus booted from heaven with 1/3 of the angels.
As far as your first question will you go to hell, I don't know you but as it stands now I'd say yes. It's not about believing God exists...Satan believes God exists...its about accepting his Salvation through Jesus. (Of coarse if you accept that you obvioulsy believes he exists.)

As far as the missing thing I have several thoughts on it. (this is personal speculation) 1. We may not remember earth or what happened thus forgetting you
2. We may remember but be too happy to think about

And who says they'd necessairly feel bad for you. You guys are looking at this as "if I'm good enough I go to the place I want to be" Its actually a decision. I want the things of God...so I'll be near the things of God. I want God to go away...so I'll be away form Him. The things of God are goodness and love...so if you want to be there get a ticket to heaven :P...if you don't want the things of God thats your decision and you'll get to spend forever with your choise.

Refer to the above. I honestly think were going to be so happy in heaven things like that won't ever cross our minds. You have the choise.

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