Soul and emotions

Emotions Without a Soul: Biochemistry accounts for all our emotions and consciousness, not a soul

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 18th, 2002 01:18 pm (UTC)		(Link)
the soul.

i think that the subject brought up on this website is a very tricky one to handle. i myself am an atheist, i do however believe in the spirit world and nediums etc. the question of the soul, i think brings up many valid points. but do humans create things like heaven and hell because we are to afraid to live up to the truth of the fact that we do not live forever? is the soul just another security blanket for us to clasp onto in the shadow of death?

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 12th, 2003 12:45 pm (UTC)		(Link)
The Soul

perhaps the solution to the body/soul problem lies somewhere near the idea that the soul DOES (like you said) need physical attributes to interact with the physical world we know. perhaps that's why it needs the body, the body provides a physical "glove" for the soul, a puppet. then of course, you run into the problem of how does it do this, what's the use, why are we not directly aware of this happening, and if we are our souls in bodies then why are we (as souls) restricted by the limitations of the body? just a thought.

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	From: bringtheknives	Date: October 20th, 2003 10:10 am (UTC)		(Link)

i found your essays online through google. i think you do a good job of disproving the type of soul you are arguing against. But what about the type of soul avowed by Socrates? Socrates says that our feelings such as anger and happiness and such are rooted in our body biologically or otherwise. He said our soul is that which allows us to have ideas, understand reason or freely choose. I am interested to hear what you think of this type of soul.

ps. I am an atheist and do not believe in the existence of a soul. i was just curious to see what other peolpe thought

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: October 23rd, 2003 01:54 am (UTC)		(Link)
where do emotions come from?

hi my name is ayla :) im 13 and iv just been nagged at by my parents about where do emtions come from........... ok so do they come from your brain?? or from your 'soul'. Im not saying that people have a soul but im not saying they dont. I was just unshure is there any scienetific or medical proof of where our emotions come from?? thanks ayla :)

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 11th, 2005 01:52 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: where do emotions come from?

We are souls. We take bodies to experience and to express our uniqueness. Once we understnad this, we can see how all the other aspects discussed in this site make sense. One of them is predestination, the other is the law of cause and effect and finally the 3 aspects of time....and that God is not related with the creation of matter, because, the universe was never created, it always existed, it is eternal just like us (souls).
There is another law that is missing here and that is what we call the second law of thermodynamics. Here the principle of duality is expressed and explains how something new becomes old, or how something that is in one state goes to the complementary state which we refer as "opposites". This explains the concept of good and evil which were discussed by philosophers and others.

The body is not alive without a soul. The soul is the one that feels, the one that thinks, the one that suffers. The body is incapable of these "feelings". The body doesn't know about beauty, peace and bliss.The body is just a chariot. Many times we confuse feelings like "love" with infatuation or lust. Love is a feeling beyond body consciousness.
The phrase "I think therefore, I am" wasn't referring about a body. It is the soul the one that thinks. The brain allow us to have a sensory experience of this material world, but there is more to it which the brain cannot experience: beauty, love, peace, happiness...
Everything depends on our state of consciousness. Body consciousness is a state of consciousness which ties us to the material world. There so much besides the 5 elements. Soul consciousness is who we are. God is a soul just like us.
avyakt7@yahoo.com

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	From: death_emblem	Date: July 5th, 2004 02:06 am (UTC)		(Link)
	My view on the soul.... just an idea

Hey Vexen...
See, what I was thinkin is when people used the word soul originally, it was just a way of explaining the overview of emotion and sub-consious thought. When people thought about it, they were amazed at what power their own minds held, but thought it to be magical, because, how could we posess such abilities as dreams and love?
I dont think that the body really contains a soul... but i do believe in a non-physical world tied to ours, like a parallel dimension. But, if there is an afterlife in which we reside in as spirits, it couldnt possibly interact with the reality of this world.
So, in order to maintain my sanity, i need to believe in a life after this... but maybe not tied to this one at all. But then again, why the hell are we here in the first place? email at par_guitarist@yahoo.com

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	From: death_emblem	Date: July 5th, 2004 02:25 am (UTC)		(Link)
	About Clive and the Soul Connected to the Brain

Depressing story...
But, many COULD argue that Clive's soul simply left his body after the brain damage. Many spiritualists would tell you that when a person suffers enough mental damage, there would be no reason for that body to have a soul.

Another good argument would be that our soul is US, the mind not the brain. Because, is it really possible to tell if someone has a soul or not, if there really is a person inside (this is assuming souls exist of course)? People may have souls, but lose them at a certain age or death. There would be no way to prove this, and it would seem pointless to have "empty" bodies fully operating across the globe. NOTE: *I'm not associating this with another religion, just science and my own beliefs.*
A soul could be the non-physical part of who we are, connected to the brain. But hell, people have based religion and souls upon what we experience and know... which comes from our brains. So I guess you could argue either way for awhile... its a horrible comparison, but its kinda like "if a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Its simply "yes", but you can never be sure because you were'nt there to experience it yourself...

OK, takin up too much space, could say more but should go...
please argue anybody!

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	From: vexen	Date: January 3rd, 2007 10:04 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: About Clive and the Soul Connected to the Brain

You said:

"But, many COULD argue that Clive's soul simply left his body after the brain damage. Many spiritualists would tell you that when a person suffers enough mental damage, there would be no reason for that body to have a soul."

But, Clive Wearing shows that emotions, even the strong emotions of love and sadness, exist purely as a result of biochemical processes.

If spiritualists argue that Clive Wearing, since his brain damage, has no soul, then they are admitting that emotions are biochemical in nature; if that is true, what exactly, do they think the point of a soul is? By removing all of our experience (emotions, observation, thought), etc, from the spehere of what a soul 'does', it is obvious it does nothing!

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 8th, 2004 01:19 am (UTC)		(Link)
Thank you!

Hey, thanks for thinking and learning and communicating--your website is quite lovely, as well as refreshing and welcome!

I've nowhere near your breadth and depth of knowledge, but I know enough to recognize truth, especially objective truth.

I particularly appreciate your stating that 'we' and 'animals' (so similar--just wish I had the grace of a cat!) share the same emotions and such on a chemical basis. I have a dog named Sammy who's considered quite extraordinary by anyone who's met him. He's trained in English, and very bad Arabic (my own version, as true speakers of Arabic would testify!); the average American knows/uses 4000 words or so, and Sammy likely understands at least half that. A friend of mine stated that dogs only lick you in hopes that you'll regurgitate food for them, but that just isn't so--at least with Sammy. He'll spontaneously walk up to and "kiss" me with no expectations, as evidenced by his walking away. (I could say much more on the topic, but I really didn't write to brag about my doglet!)

Thank you again for a wonderful site that I'll re-visit at least a few times!

Tracy (berkland@mad.scientist.com)

P.S. Christof Koch presented an interesting question. If a computer operates optimally between x and y degrees, and a red light is illuminated when it exceeds y degrees (x being the lower of the two), does this mean the computer feels pain?

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 11th, 2005 02:14 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Existence of Soul

As expressed in this site, there is predestination. Things happen because of the law of causality. (cause and effect)
we learn from our mistakes, inother words we suffer in order to learn. The law of Karma (action and reaction) tells us that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction, just like Newton's laws of movement. If I kill someone, I must experience what is like to be killed. This is what we call justice, a moral standard, we came "programmed" with this. It was predestined. However, if I live my life and get away with this murder, when should I pay for it? when should I learn form this suffering that I cause into others? In my next life. When I take a new body I shall experience the suffering that I caused to others. This is why the soul exist. The soul is the one which experiences pain, suffering and happiness. The body is limited, it goes away. The soul continues on. the law of karma explains the need to have a soul in order "to pay for my debts", this is why you observe suffering all around us and within us.. we need to pay our debts.. the longer we stay in this world, more debts we have to cancel. Science don't know anything about this of course.

avyakt7@yahoo.com

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 13th, 2006 10:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)
emotions without a soul?

HOW A PHYSICAL BODY CAN CREATE THOUGHTS? THOUGHTS ARE NON MATERIAL. THOSE THOUGHTS ARE YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS. LOGICALLY SPEAKING, A NON MATERIAL ENTITY CANNOT BE CREATED BY A MATERIAL ENTITY: A BODY OR AS YOU SAID IT: "BIOCHEMISTRY." IF SO, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE WITH A REASONABLE ANSWER TO THIS: WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF CHEMICALS IN THE BODY? IN OTHER WORDS, WHY SOME TEND TO BE DEPRESSED UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES OF OTHERS? WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE? WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE? IF EVERYTHING IS DECIDED BY CHEMICALS, WHY SOME HAVE MORE THAN OTHERS? WHAT DECIDES THE AMOUNT OF CHEMICALS THAT WE HAVE? EMOTIONS ARE NOT RELATED WITH CHEMICALS AT ALL. YOU CAN ENHANCE OR DIMINISH CERTAIN EMOTIONS WITH CHEMICALS, DUE TO THE CONNECTION OF THE SOUL WITH THE BODY, BUT IF SOMEONE IS DEPRESSED AND YOU GIVE HIM AN ANTIDEPRESSANT, THE STAGE OF EUPHORIA IS FOR A MOMENT ONLY. SUFFERING IS STILL MASKED INSIDE, BUT AS LONG AS THERE IS NO THOUGHT ABOUT THIS SUFFERING, THEN THERE IS NO DEPRESSION....WE CANNOT STOP OUR THOUGHTS, BUT WE CAN DULL OUR AWARENESS THROUGH CHEMICALS.

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	From: vexen	Date: June 14th, 2006 10:40 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: emotions without a soul?

1. Thoughts are completely material. Physical brain damage, even down to very minor injuries, can have dramatic affects on our thoughts and how we think. Neurosciences such as neuropsychology and cognitive psychology, including much of the medicine and drugs industries, rely on the fact that thoughts are fundamentally material in nature. If not, there would be no such thing as brain damage.

2. Everyone has different brain chemical levels because our genes code proteins and neurotransmitters to slightly different degrees in everyone. No two objects are exactly the same, atoms are highly variable from person to person. Also, as thoughts are cycical (limbic system, etc), then, thoughts are different in different people because different life experiences cause people to have different thoughts. Different experiences - such as being born in one city instead of another, or having one parent instead of a different one - all cause different perceptions of the world. Our perceptions (bottom-up processes) cause different chemicals to be released in the brain.

3. If, as you say, there is a "connection" between the brain and the soul, how can you also say that the soul is imamterial? If the soul interacts with the brain in some way, then the soul must be physical.

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 11th, 2006 10:34 am (UTC)		(Link)

Everything about us can be argued as being mere biochemistry except for one tiny but critical detail: why do I have the experience of inhabiting THIS body and not some other one? Mere chance is an insufficient justification for those who resort to arguments of causality. What mechanism behind the scenes allocates Sentience to our otherwise automatic corpses? An exact chemical replica of me would look and behave exactly the same. But would I "Be" within it?

Therefore, I think of the soul as an Ethereal Entity riding upon a Physical Machine.

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 17th, 2006 06:20 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I said nothing about control mechanisms. I am merely stating that the logistics of biochemistry explain the automaton that we perhaps are (or aren't), but fail to adequately address our sense of experiencing BE-ing as that (arguable) automation.

Additionally, if there IS an ethereal and/or spiritual realm, it is absurd to think such realms would be bound to physical laws or detectable via PHYSics. A corresponding organ is not required. The very concepts of these things specify a non-physicality. Ergo, traditional scientific processes are futile and produce only nescient conclusions. This is only disappointing if you feel that existence is required to fit into our tidy little human categories, which it isn't.

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	From: vexen	Date: September 18th, 2006 07:09 am (UTC)		(Link)

1. Well if your model is also unaffected by real-world events, then you also 'fail to explain' qualia.

However,

2. We know that our 'sense' of experiencing is tied deeply and completely to physical phenomenon as brain damage, neurochemicals and biochemistry all have profound effects no our experiences of the world.

To say that such 'experiences' require something nonphysical is to add unneeded complexity, and as point 1 points out, it is also nonsensical. If our 'experiences' are nonphysical, then this nonphysical thing must in some way know what is going on in the world, and must therefore have a physical interface. 'Soul' epistemology is just as real as physical epistemology.

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 18th, 2006 10:07 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Your statement of both points is redundant as I have already addressed both, should one extrapolate. The observational mechanisms are explained, but not the presence of the observer. Biochemistry and neurochemicals explain 'what', not 'why'. There is no guarantee that the latter's explanation will be found in physicality. Additionally there is no obligation for the greater-Ness to be sensical.

Statements such as "we know" are questionable at best, given that we don't know. Who is "we"? Are you speaking on behalf of the neurological community? Are you unaware of great divides in epistemological circles?

You presume that added complexity is somehow invalidating, because of your addiction to The Razor, but it isn't necessarily so. As someone who loves the razor you sure seem to add a lot of your own assumptions to the limited claims I have made here.

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 14th, 2006 03:36 am (UTC)		(Link)

Emotions are reactions. The brain registers physical and mental stimuli in terms of fight or flight/pain or pleasure. They serve to motivate us to take action, e.g. - think some more (and thinking is an action) or to actually do something.

"Soul" is a religious word. I know this because I feel in my heart that it is so.

Is it bad that biochemistry is the foundation of our thoughts? I love the idea...there is science behind it and it's fascinating (at least that's what my serotonin would have me believe)...But, hey...I really have to pass this by Thor; He will give me the definitive answer.

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	From: vexen	Date: December 14th, 2006 01:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)

1. Emotions are much more complex than two sets of polar attributes (fight or flight, pain or pleasure). The first is used to describe the general uses of the ANS/VNS, but is far from the only emotional-physical responses that we have. Many different systems of emotion work through the Limbic System to produce our emotional experiences.

2. "Soul" is... or was, a religious word, but many nowadays use it in a secular sense to mean the inner psychology of identity.

3. I agree, the science of biochemistry is made even more fascinating and wonderful by the fact that it produces the qualia of experience, as a result of mass cell autonomous functions. Nature is wonderful in its evolved complexity!

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 14th, 2010 01:47 am (UTC)		(Link)
The emotional cycle...

It is more likely that the cycle is really:

1. Perception of situation
2. Physiological state (to prepare us physically for an event, i.e. if we are scared it is useful that blood is sent to muscles / our heart races)
3. Neurological mapping from physiological state to an emotional state.
4. Analysis of situation - Emotion can be analysed by the conscious mind more easily than sets of physiological states, hence why emotions are needed.
5. Decision making
6. Action

In your diagram it seems that perception (i.e. "our interpretation of our changing environment") is not the primary force, however I would argue that that is wrong.

So for example:
1. I see a sabre toothed tiger.
2. My heart races and blood is pumped to my muscles.
3. I feel scared (emotion = fear).
4. Should I stay and fight or run?
5. I decide to run.
6. run

Whereas your diagram would have us believe:

1. My heart races and blood is pumped to my muscles.
2. I feel scared (emotion = fear).
3. We perceive the sabre toothed tiger.

I think not!

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 26th, 2011 05:12 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Brain injury

I appreciate your data on brain injuries and dementia. It helps give me direction with my diabetic husband who has suffered many seizures from low blood sugar. But speaking as a Christian, I have to say that you don't have enough data on God to make a conclusion about the existence of souls; no one does. That's why it's called faith.

And contrary to popular belief, it is possible to believe in God and be a scientist at the same time. I work at a university where there are many. Hope to see you make the leap over to the Truth!

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 14th, 2013 09:19 am (UTC)		(Link)
Emotions without souls

To the Author,

If we eat a good apple we would feel a good taste sensation. If we eat a damaged apple we would feel a bad taste sensation. So is the brain. Damages in the brain or particular chemicals in the brain may alter our emotions, behaviors and experiences. That is an obvious fact. Based on this fact many Neurologists come with faulty conclusions and mislead the people.You have explained very well about different emotions and feelings which are caused by our brain. But many Neurologists including you are not aware of a very important phenomena in our existence.Which feels all the different kind of emotions and experiences caused whether by a healthy brain or by a damaged brain or by chemicals in the brain? This is a very important question. You talk about modern science. But there is no answer to this question in modern science. Modern science isl unable to solve the serious problem of sorrow of death. Because it doesn't know the reality of our existences. You say everything is biological. If so, please answer my question since it is a biological question.

A.Sriskandarajah

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 15th, 2013 12:28 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Emotions without souls

Thank you for your reply.

Sorry, You didn't understand my question. I agree that our experiences or sensations are altered by the chemicals in the brain. That is not my question.

(1)But which feels or knows all experiences or sensations arising through the brain? To which all experiences are made known?

When an organism is suffering from a severe pain, a Scientist can explain all chemical and electrical mechanism involved in the arising of pain. But really which feels the pain sensation? To which the pain sensation is made known? Which is suffering from pain sensation arising as a result of neural mechanism in the brain?
You take some ice and put it in your hand. Now you feel a sensation of cold. Forget about all the biochemical process in the brain . Just feel it. The cold sensation is only for you. So there should be an existence to feel the cold sensation. What is it?

When electro chemical signals reach the different regions of the brain different experiences arise. To which all those experiences are directed to feel them? Because all experiences are coming to me and being felt by me. (2) So what am I? This is another important question.

Many Neurologists say that brain creates consciousness and write books under that title endlessly. But they are unable to solve the serious problem of sorrow of death and also unable to answer my questions. You say biochemistry alter our experiences. But are you able to explain how bio chemicals produce a sensation. (3) How all neural signals are converted to experiences? There is no complete answer to this question. You see that bio chemicals are material but sensations are not material. They are unable to connect the both. There is a big gap.

Please answer my 3 questions which are numbered above.
Glad to hear from you.

A.Sriskandarajah

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 20th, 2013 09:22 am (UTC)		(Link)
Soul and emotions

To Vexen,

Your long article shows that we depend on our brain for all of our experiences. It is true that all our experiences, emotions and feelings which I don’t say brain creates but come through brain. Any changes in the brain by damage or by chemicals cause changes in our experiences, feelings and emotions. That is significant. But not much significant. The most significant questions is which feels all the experiences arise through the brain?

So, again I am asking you to answer the following questions. These questions are not related to theism or atheism or skepticism which is false identification. My questions are the real questions arising from the real problem which is suffering from the sorrow of death. Whether God exist or not or whether soul exist or not is an unnecessary and silly problem. That will not serve anything to mankind. Without troubling their heads with unknown things they should reveal the mystery of the known things. Those Scholars who say that there is no God do not know whether life exist in any planets beyond our solar system. They don’t know what really exist in a planet closer to earth. They don’t know the origin of everything. They don’t know what they are. They are unable to solve the problem of human sufferings including the sorrow of death. But they say “No God”
What a funny thing? What they or you say about the brain is true. But that is very little and limited. They are unable to cure many serious brain diseases.
(1)How does a sensation arise by brain process? How electrical signals are converted to experiences such as taste, smell, sound, perception, hungry, heat, cold, fear, happiness, etc?
(2) When a man is suffering from severe pain really which knows or experiences the pain sensation? Which suffers from the pain? To which the pain sensation is made known?
(3) I can experience all different kind of sensations. So there should be a center in the brain to experience all sensations. Is there any such centre in the brain?
If there is no such center in the brain then which feels all sensations?
(4) What is the neural mechanism involved in the brain during the change of following states?
Sleeping, waking and unconsciousness.
(5) You say that our emotions are physical in nature. What you mean by physical? When you say physical, is it something real or is it your imagination? Can that physical exist independent of your consciousness? Or is what you think as physical in your consciousness?

A.Sriskandarajah

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From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 20th, 2013 09:30 am (UTC)		(Link)
Soul and emotions

To Vexen,

Who told that emotions come from soul? It is true that all emotions and experiences arise through the brain. You are misunderstood. Your misunderstanding made you to write a long article. Not only you some Neurologists are also doing the same thing. They write books on this subject. Utter wastage. God may not exist. Soul may not exist. But you are sure that you exist. So first of all find out what you are. Do you know what you are? Do the authors who write books on soul and God know what they are? Without knowing what they are they write long articles and books to say that there is no God and soul. What a funny thing? The effects of brain damage, tumours and brain disease alter our emotions and feelings. But which feels all the experiences which are arising through a healthy brain or damaged brain? This is the very important question.

A.Sriskandarajah

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