Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
vexen

God has no free will.

"God Has No Free Will" by Vexen Crabtree (2002).

Omniscience and free will.

(Anonymous)
The logical argument is valid (in the sense that he conclusion logically follows from the premises) but I do not see how it is sound (because both premises appear to be untrue).
If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong
The same sort of argument has been used for alleged contradiction between omniscience and the free will of humanity, and it fails for essentially the same reason. I think you may be confusing “can’t” with “won’t.” It doesn’t logically follow that God and humanity won’t do something because they can’t. For example, suppose I use a time machine to travel from the present to the year 1995. I know that the American people will elect George W. Bush in the year 2000. But this foreknowledge does not imply predestination. I don’t take away the people’s free will simply by knowing what will happen. But what if people choose to vote for Al Gore instead? In that case, I would correspondingly have always known that when I traveled from the present to the year 1995.

It’s the same with God’s omniscience. Let’s face it, either I will eat an apple tomorrow or I won’t. Suppose I choose to eat an apple tomorrow. If God knew it ahead of time, would that remove my free will? No. What if, at the last minute, I choose not to eat an apple? Then God would correspondingly have always known that I wouldn’t eat an apple. It’s like traveling back in time before George W. Bush was elected. Simply because I know that the people would vote for George does not in the least imply that I have removed their free will, just like God knowing who would be elected does not imply that He removed their free will.

Re: Omniscience and free will.

Your arguement is more suited to created beings (such as us) who are not omniscient. An omniscient, all-powerful God who knows (at the moment of his creation) every action he will ever take does not have an instant in His life where He had free will.

Upon the slightest thought an Omniscient being knows all he will do in the future -- he does not make any choices but merely follows His own destiny -- the very first instant such a being has consciousness all their future actions are unchangable. There is not a living moment when such a being has a chance to change their mind or make a choice.

It is true that because God knows what we will choose that it doesn't imply he forces us too... but God does not have that release. All of God's actions (if he is omniscient) must be set in stone from the very beginning, they are part of God himself as God transends time itself. (If he is infinite, he must transcend time).

Benevolence and free will.

(Anonymous)
What is the point of saying that God is moral, if God cannot choose to do anything bad?
Again, I think you may be confusing “can’t” with “won’t.” For example, I am not suicidal. I will not kill myself because it’s not in my nature (a nature that I choose to possess). But it doesn’t logically follow that I won’t commit suicide because I can’t. Similarly, it’s possible that God does not commit anything unethical because he chooses not to do so, not because he is unable to do so.

Re: Benevolence and free will.

This is a good argument.

  • Your argument is that God has chosen his own nature to be that he can freely choose never to do anything bad.

    If this is possible then why did God not create us in the same way? God could have created us with the same nature... a nature that allows us to always freely choose the good paths. That he didn't create us in the same way would mean:
    1. God is not-omnibenevolent. Not all-good. or
    2. God has no free will to choose evil

  • You'll hear from me again

    (Anonymous)
    First, God is all knowing as you say, but this does not mean that he has a future and knows all decisions in the future. This is because, if he has a future, he has a beginning. But God (At least the true God from the bible) does not have a future because he does not live in any form of time CONSTRAINT, he is FREE from this.

    Second,God always makes the most moral choice as you say. In this you are correct. But, GOD IS NOT UNDER/CONSTRAINED BY ANY MORAL CODE OF HIS OWN. In other words, we know morality because we know the goodness of God and its opposite, evil. We can make decisions in terms of more moral, most moral, least moral, and so forth. But God is not under this type of code. Every decision that he makes is equally and perfectly good, because he is the epitome of good. He is good and could not make an evil choice if he wanted to, and if he did, his evil choice would become good. In short, goodness is God and their is no moral code above him. If he chose to do what we refer to as evil, then we would have a new moral code of instead of the one we currently understand, because GOD TELLS US WHAT A MORAL CODE IS AND WHAT IS GOOD AND EVIL. We have a moral code because God set one down.

    You must be misinterpreting Free-will as merely the ability to choose but this is not free-will. Rather Free-will is THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE WITHOUT BEING IMPRISONED/CONSTRAINED BY ANYTHING WHATSOEVER SO THAT YOU TRULY ARE FREE.

    You try and deny God's free-will by referring to two categories: omniscient, all good God. However, your forgetting something: God's PLEASURE. In this way he is free to create anything he chooses according to his pleasure. One more thing, if there is a God, he must have a free choice otherwise THIS CREATION, ALONG WITH YOURSELF, MUST BE ONE BIG IMAGINARY ILLUSION! If not, then a choice was made to create it along with all of its intricate detail somewhere in the realm of eternity. But if we can imagine it, we must be real: God must therefore have a free choice and made this world according to His purpose and PLEASURE, which is exactly what the bible says he created it for.

    Re: You'll hear from me again

    (Anonymous)
    Knowing something before its occurence does not make it happen,but it prove that it cannot be otherwise, God has no freewill.

    You know, I don't know who you are, but some sad day(perhaps when it's too late) you are going to realize how misled you are and how you've had a hand in misleading others. Are you trying to walk in Darwin's footsteps?? If that's ever crossed your mind, know that he went against his own theory before he died and accepted Christ into his heart. God is true and does know what will happen before it happens. This does not mean that He takes away your free will!! He will prompt you to do what is right, or send people your direction to guide you. EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON MAKES THE ULTIMATE DECISION THOUGH!!!! You can either listen to the promting of the Christ or not. God allows good and evil, but He doesn't cause you to sin. No sin can be in the presence of God. Satan, you know that fallen angel, well he is the one who will prompt you to make those decisions that are not so nice. Such as, blatant killing, theft, lying, adultry.....I could go on and on. Do you actually think that God is going to give you the 10 commandments to follow and then tell you to go commit adultry???? DON'T THINK SO!!! That Vexen, would be a person's own personal lust and desire.

    Why don't you do everyone a favor and jump off your bandwagon and go sit in the back of a church and listen with your heart open. Maybe one day you will find the truth and accept it too.

    May God open your heart!!!

    big ups to you playa' (Anonymous) Expand

    Crazy

    (Anonymous)
    Who says that if God new he was going to turn the light on he couldn't change his mind? Do you just think these things up like you are all knowing? If God new he didn't want a light turned on, and he was already going to turn it on, and he wanted to change his mind, he would. He is all knowing, he is all powerful, meaning, he can do what he wants. He is benevolent as well, and if you've ever watched a tragedy in someones life you'd see that something good always comes from things that happen like that, but some people are so self righteous that they just don't swim out of their pity enough to realize it.

    You said it yourself: God is all knowing.

    If God knows he was going to turn the light on at 11pm tonite, God cannot be wrong in his knowledge, therefore he cannot change his mind.

    If he knew he wasn't going to turn it on at 11pm, then he wouldn't turn it on, because he is all-knowing, and if he turned it on it would mean he wasn't all-knowing, because his prediction would have been wrong.

    If God is all knowing, and God thinks that something will happen, then that thing *will* happen no matter what, otherwise his knowledge would have been wrong.

    Vexen, you make a valid point regarding the incompatibility of God having exhaustive foreknowledge and freewill. However, if omniscience is defined as knowing everything that is knowable and if the future is not knowable, then God can have freewill while being omniscient.

    Your benevolence argument against freewill makes two fatal assumptions. One, not all choices involve morality. God's decision to create the world, His decision to create mankind, His willingness to provide beyond a persons needs, etc. None of these are moral decisions.

    Even when a decision involves morality, there can be than one morally correct choice. For example, a person sins and incurs the penalty of death. God is just, so He cannot overlook injustice. God is truth, so He cannot ignore the penalty He pronounced. Therefore, the immoral choice is to simply ignore the sin. The moral choice is to carry out the penalty. However, there is a third choice. God can pay the penalty to satisfy the justice and the integrity of His word. Then He can offer forgiveness by His mercy and grace. Morality does not limit every decision to one choice.

    God's omniscince and morality do not keep Him from having freewill.

    Our Free Will

    (Anonymous)
    Why doesn't God just make us unable to do evil? God gave us free will even if he cannot choose it for himself. If we were given the ability to only do good, we would be God's slaves. Slaves, as seen many times throughout history, wanted to get away from their master to be free. Since he is an all knowing God, he would know this, and gave Adam and Eve, and Christ, free will, we on the other hand do not, you either have faith in Christ or do not, you can call him an evil God for not saving us but it is we who choose damnation, we do not want to associate ourselves with God and it is not possible to forgive someone who rejects forgiveness as we do, without making them a slave.

    Re: Our Free Will (Anonymous) Expand
    Re: Our Free Will (Anonymous) Expand

    huh

    (Anonymous)
    God does have free will, He is love, or "moral" how you put it (or something like that). So if He is made up totally of love or "good morals" then that is who He is. He could do anything He wanted, but His whole being is made up love so he really has no care to do anything else. I mean that's who He is.

    If God knows something before its occurence does not cause the occurence to happen, but it prove it can;t be otherwise,therefore God has no freewill. Thank;s

    hey vexen

    (Anonymous)
    hey, my name is chris and i'm a philosophy major and really enjoy your website. it's extremely important, in my opinion, to promote thought and insight and in this context i see your site (bias as it is) is a very worthy venture..

    i am an agnostic and for, what i feel, are very good reasons. the 'problem of evil' is the most formidable opponent to the adoption of theistic beliefs however it also suffers from some very serious fallacies when considering the idea of 'god'.

    the problem is that the arguement revolves around a very simple and philosophical and most importantly anthromorphic god. people like soren keirkegaard and some other early theistic existentialists have pointed out that fidiesm may be a sound result of not sound rationalization but sound experience (a similar arguement being that of the problem of evil, where the real concentration or problem seems to emerge from trying to integrate the evil and pain and suffering we feel in our own lives and the idea of an all good, all loving, all powerful creator). i would not adopt this arguement, but i feel kierkegaard was right when he asserted that ultimately value and 'essence' must be ground in god but not humanity.
    the arguement i purpose is similar to this, i purpose that 'god' does not objectively exist as a 'person' 'out there', that it would in effect be better to say that 'god' is no-thing instead of some knowledgable thing. by this i don't mean that god doesn't exist, but that god as a supreme reality is the ground for all being, not a being in itself.
    i am not saying that faith is contrary to reason, this was kierkegaard's assertion, just that faith must be consistantly checked with reason, but reason by no means can come to understand 'god', or that 'god' is of such a transcendent nature that it is cerebally inacessable (which as a 'person' would make sense that 'god' would pull away, if god didnt by what grounds would we have faith? it wouldn't be faith, it would be logic).
    the god of christianity, judaism, and islam is a highly personable god on the surface, that is in a literalistic sense. if that stories are meant to be taken for their symbolism and meditated on we might consider the god (yes, with all of it's contradictories)as a reflection of an inner quality produced by a subjective state within the grounds of the person percieving them.
    unfortunantly many theists write their god in stone, and this god fortunantly has gone under the rails of the rational engine. evolution, big bang cosmology (discovered by a vatican ordained physicist), evil, all of these things are problems for an anthromorphic objective 'god' that exists 'out there' with all of it's possible perfections listed by the philosopher. i say this god doesnt exist. 'god' is not man written big. faith in god is faith in an inner reality (the one known to the spiritual nature of man) that reflects not the Greatest Conceivable Being, but a being that is ultimately not-known and at the same time the very ground for being and existance itself.

    for further reading i recommend: "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, and then "Mysticism" By Evelyn Underhill and "Why God Wont Go Away" By Dr. Armstrong.

    i think that cerebally looking for God without a mystical experiece is like looking into a mirror without any sense of self. it would lead to agnosticism, could or couldnt. as a subjective certainty, this knowledge could bear fruit.

    just my opinion, i would like to see some feed back on it!
    Thanks!

    what

    (Anonymous)
    Let me know who created free will in the first place? Who created Time? What you want to say is that good cannot exist without bad and bad cannot without good, this is true. When it comes to God, God is not good or bad, we cannot define God with human like attributes. God is more like pure, a state that we are not seen so cannot explain with words. As for free will, the question even doesnt exist. God do not need will, as God do not have needs. We are the ones who are in need of Gods favours. Imagine this, in the end what ever we do or who ever we become God wins. So it is not a question here, we cannot define a God who created us using the attributes within us. So try to say the most beautiful words that you can ever imagin and attribute it to God... even than it is not close to accurate.

    Shunan

    what

    (Anonymous)
    Let me know who created free will in the first place? Who created Time? What you want to say is that good cannot exist without bad and bad cannot without good, this is true. When it comes to God, God is not good or bad, we cannot define God with human like attributes. God is more like pure, a state that we are not seen so cannot explain with words. As for free will, the question even doesnt exist. God do not need will, as God do not have needs. We are the ones who are in need of Gods favours. Imagine this, in the end what ever we do or who ever we become God wins. So it is not a question here, we cannot define a God who created us using the attributes within us. So try to say the most beautiful words that you can ever imagine and attribute it to God... even than it is not close to accurate.

    Shunan

    What created the universe? http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/assumptions.html will compare the assumptions of atheists and theists, you'll find that it's more logical that atheism is true and the creative force is not conscious, not a god of any kind.

    I believe in God, and I believe in Christ. No I do not believe Muslims, atheists, Jews or communists are going to be punished for not being Christian. I believe God is a personal God, but She is beyond anything we can articulate with any accuracy. I also believe we have a responsibility to actively seek God. Being "Born Again" just doesn't wash with me. Just saying the words doesn't make it so. I can't accept that a prisoner who is "born again" two days before his execution is in the same spiritual condition as a Rabbi who teaches morals, or a teacher who takes time to contemplate or an atheist who devotes time to help her community. I believe a person can have a mystical union with God on earth, but it is the most difficult thing in the universe to achieve. And at the same time, I'm never without God. I can no more be without God than I can live without air, because God is that air. In the last analysis, however, I know I can never find God. He'll have to reach down and find me. I have have doubts and disappointments like anybody else. I get angry with God frequently and I succumb to error and evil, but I also believe God exists and I believe in the words, "Seek and You Will Find."

    The statement "An omniscient God has no free will" is a perfectly rational statement. It stands up as a rational argument. But when we speak of God, rational argument is never enough. It will never be enough to explain, prove or disprove God. The reason is GOD IS NOT RATIONAL. I mean God is not just rational. God is also passionate. The problem people have when speaking of God is that they usually either argue from one point of view or the other. Both are needed. God is found in rational thought, contradiction, opposites and absurdities. When you can believe simultaneously two contradictory statements about God, it's a start. When you can understand that "God is bound by Her nature" and at the same time He has an infinitely free will", you're on the right track.

    Does god have a Free Will or Can God commit evil?

    God is bound by His nature and NO, God cannot sin. God can no more sin than a cat can bark. Can God create another God as equally powerful? NO! The same question put another way. Can God create a rock so heavy, She can't lift it? NO. By it's very definition, there can be only one ABSOLUTE. If God could create another God as equally powerful, He wouldn't be God. This is also the answer to the too often used atheist question,"If God created the universe, who created God?" God is the only ABSOLUTE in the universe and it is because of this, She is God. It's more accurate to say God is bound by His nature than to say that God has no free will.

    At the same time, God has free will in infinite abundance. The one aspect of Christianity that I find most compelling is this dual nature of God (the Holy Spirit, also God, is the love of the Father and Son) God can not commit evil. The second Person of the Holy Trinity is also God and in Him, God experiences Her free will. Christ freely chose to be incarnated as man on earth and He was 100% man. Of course He had a free will. Christ, as a man could have sinned. Christ as a man was tempted, perhaps as no man before Him. Christ went through pure agony the night before His death and it is quite possible He could have failed. Most Christians think that's heresy, but without the possibility of failure, it would not have been His free will. There have been countless commentaries on the last words of Jesus on the cross, but when He screamed "My God,why have You forsaken me", I think He meant just that." He felt God had forsaken Him, an experience most of us feel at one time or another. Perhaps, Jesus expected God to take His soul directly to heaven from the cross. But this didn't happen and I believe Christ panicked. It was only on Easter morning did Christ fully realize God did keep Her promise.

    After His Resurrection, Christ was again took His place as God, but it was a God who had ironically experienced His free will most profoundly as a man. God is in the details, and God is certainly in opposites and contradictions.




    Hi, there!
    I strongly agree with your arguments on morals being just picked up from society.
    In effect, all our principles that for our so-called "conscience" are borrowed from someone or the other.

    But I have one question for you:
    Look at nature around you, you see the human body is so perfect. Just the right amount of enzymes, hormones which catalyse various reactions and we have the ability to think too. Nobody has been able to make anything like that. Like our eye, for instance. It's just perfect. I can distinguish lakhs of colours and the view in front of me is just perfect, millions of millions of millions of pixels. And I have the ability to change the focal length of my eye as I desire.
    Or the brain for instance. The brain gets signals from so many different parts of our body and we can actually take decisions based upon them.

    Don't you feel from all of the perfection of nature that the world around us is not an accident? There is someone who has made it the way it is.
    I do agree with the idea of all-knowing, or all-powerful God or moral God who deals with good and bad as futile.
    But God has definitely made nature the way it is. It is made by a perfect Creator.

    There are many animals with much better eyes than us, our eyes have evolved to suit the purposes to which we've needed to put them in order to stay alive. We may consider them "perfect" because they HAVE evolved to suit our purposes. All eyes are imperfect in different ways; we can only focus on things slowly, we can be fooled by patterns and visual tricks, we only have limited range of eyesight, and can't focus on things that are too close. Our eyes aren't perfect. Our eyes are also varied from person to person; many people have various problems with colour perception, focusing, eye dominance, etc.

    So although you may not find that your own eyes shortcomings affect your life, it's because you're naturally attuned to how you're eyes are. They could be much better!

    Our hormones and what-not are not perfect either. Everyone has to learn over time to control their emotions and bodies, we only remain viable as long as remain on top of our complex bodies. This "keeping on top" would not be required if our chemicals, hormones, emotions, neural pathways, and biochemical make-up, was "perfect".

    Our brains are the most imperfect of all; mathematically dumb, our brain guesses, forgets, confuses, whirls around uncontrollable, has immense subconscious depths beyond our control that we frequently could do with being more in touch with, etc... it is only in small steps that our modern sapient nature has evolved to become a dictator of our emotional and homeostatic bodies.

    So before you announce perfection... just take time to reflect on how many imperfections are only just beneath the surface... instead proclaim the wonder of human society, that teaches us how to overcome our emotions, irrationality, diseases and bodily dysfunctions.

    Our organs fail, we have masses of mutated, dysfunctional, disabled DNA, unused tissues and folds, out-of-date teeth and toes... before you proclaim perfection, reflect on how much more perfect we could be if only we could remove the problems and errors of evolution!

    Your argument that god has no free will is foolish...

    (Anonymous)
    When the christians say that god is omniscient, they aren't saying that he knows everything, not entirely. I'd say that the assumption would be that he knows everything in the universe, and that he's something outside of it. He can have any influence within it, but is not part of it himself. This makes sense, really. Also, your idea of omniscience is too simple. You assume that there is only one possible path of things, but we've seen that often times, things are less certian, and adhere closer to probabalistic rules. Can we, then, say that the future is uncertain, for the most part? I would argue that the omniscient god knows all possible futures, and what happens, including the futures of any action he himself could make at any time in this universe. As for the statement that god is all good... well, this is impossible. If it was so, there could be no evil in the world. God, as the author of all things, and knower of all futures, would have to have allowed evil to come about, and therefore, he cannot truly be a benevolent god. Make sense? Good...

    Re: Your argument that god has no free will is foolish...

    When outside of time, you see all choices as already made, you see all paths from the beginning to their end. Outside of time means that God DOESN'T see the fourth dimension as a progression of 3D universes, changing per frame, but that it sees the whole Universe, from beginning to end, all at once. Hence omniscience, and hence God being "outside of time" and "eternal".

    I agree, with an all-powerful all-knowing God, it could not also be benevolent.

    Ive not read everyones comments so sorry if I say something someones already said. God did not create us with His nature because Life is a test, whether we should get heaven or not. God wants to see if WE can EARN his nature, and the people closest to his nature will undoubtably gain heaven. It would not be fair if we started the 'test' with all the 'answers'

    Perhaps God only appears to have no free will

    (Anonymous)
    hello....

    Perhaps God only appears to have no free will because god no longer exists. This theory assumes that god is all-powerful and capable to do anything. If God is capable of anything then God could create fate. Therefore everything is already decided and all God's actions are already decided. God would be able to know what will happen in every situation. Also if God is capable of everything then God could create the universe and fate in an infinitely small amount of time. And then after this infinitely small amount of time God no longer needs to exist. And, because God can do anything, maybe God destroys itself so it is incapable to change its mind at any point in the future. So God could be omniscient and still have free will. This does NOT assume that God is benevolent.

    I look forward to a reply from anyone if they notice any flaws in my logic!! Particularly you Vexen.

    Re: Perhaps God only appears to have no free will

    (Anonymous)
    Yes god can create fate, but does that mean he is forced to follow it. If I create a bike am I forced to ride it?

    Christ be with you,
    Stephen

    Why do you try to put down what others believe?

    (Anonymous)
    You say that God has no free will, but I say through him all things are possible. The devil is using you to spread false knowledge. He's giving you the ability to think deep, but denying you to see certains truths about what you are thinking deeply about. You're being tested, and perhaps you've once tried to know God, but he never replied. Maybe he never replied b/c he knew that your sole purpose on earth is to go against him, is to test the faith of some of his followers. Believe it or not God let's that happen. He let's people like you try to put him down and mislead others simply b/c he's testing the faith of those he specifically chosen to be with him when their time comes. And what I mean by "chosen" is that before you are even born God knows what your life will be like. He choses whom to give the desire to want to be with him. He also let's the devil have his fun with people like you. And the devil will use people like you to mislead the minds of people who are not yet fully, or even yet been exposed to the truth that there is a God, and by the looks of the world and the way the weather is even changing, and even this unnecessary war america is fighting, and the way the bible prophecies are coming true.. the world is deteriorating. God told us years ago this world was never meant to last, and here we have people like you putting him and his word down instead of trying to get to know him and get your life right with him. His son is coming back soon, and people like you will no longer matter, not even in the eyes of that devil that misleads your thoughts. And by the way.. have you ever noticed when things got bad whose name you cry out. When things became good whose name you still cry out. whether you love him or hate him.. he is all-knowing, and he does exist. And he will definitely prove that to you shortly. And with God all things are possible... think about that.



    God is not a "being"; He is a Supernatural Spirit who is able to change you heart.
    Read about Saul and how God changed the heart of man who was killing the followers of Jesus Christ to a man(name was changed to Paul) who dedicated his life to preaching about Jesus Christ and saving souls. Don't allow satan to deceive you any longer.

    God loves you!!!!!!

    God tells us that He Himself created evil--read Isaiah 45: 6-7

    (Anonymous)
    We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

    Does this also include EVIL? You bet it does!

    "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

    There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state. I cannot, after all this time, get the images of the Twin Towers collapsing on thousands of people, out of my mind. Or maybe even worse, the men, women and children in the four planes that knew they were destined to a violent disintegration in fire! I get teary-eyed every time I think of it. It is extremely traumatic to contemplate. And now another shuttle disaster! One at the hands of evil terrorists; the other an accident, fate, providence? But what is gained by trying to take all of these things out of the realm of God’s responsibility? God and God only has the "ability-to-respond" Man is not running God’s creation, God is. How can any doubt it? God caused ALL of these EVIL things, because EVIL is the necessary backdrop for GOOD.

    We all have our own personal financial, health, social, mental, and spiritual trials in addition to thousands of other problems in our home, community, state, nation and world which can easily overwhelm us if we are not well grounded. Do we think all these things just invented themselves and brought themselves into existence? I tell you No; these are all the design of an all-wise God.

    The evil God (Anonymous) Expand
    Re: The evil God (Anonymous) Expand

    God has no free will

    (Anonymous)
    When will you all ever shut up and stop accusing God. You should all be ashmed of yourself.
    I will tell you a story, maybe that will clarify things to some of you.

    Let us "Imagine" there lived a very powerful and wealthy man, so rich he could buy the whole world if he wanted to. Now this very man happens to be a bachelor and wanted to get married. He falls inlove with a very beautiful lady. He loved her so much he could die for her should it be needed. But unfortunately for him, he is not sure if the lady loves him back. With all his powers, the richman can force the Lady to marry and live with him forever if he wants to. With all his riches the man can command the lady to do anything he wants her to just because he is stinky rich. Suprisingly enough, the rich man puts his riches aside and approaches the lady disguised as a poor man deeply inlove with her.

    If you read the above story, you would want to agree with me that the Richman did what he did beacuse he was looking for "True Love". He was looking for someone to love him not because he had the powers to force them to, but to love him because they loved him.
    Good, apply this to the mystrey of life. The Rich man is God, we are the Lady. God has the powers to make ãll the billions of people in the world to bow down this instant and worship him forever. But then, you ask yourself this question; Does God really wants to use his Powers to force the whole world to worship him? The answer is a capital NO. He wants us to love him at our own FREEWILL not on his. He wants us to make the dicision ourselves. So, the dicision is up to you now. think about it.

    you can e-mail me at rufflychux@hotmail.com

    Re: God has no free will

    (Anonymous)
    I am under the impression that God is all things. God is. That means that God is me, you, the tree, the ocean, etc. Nothing exists except through the Father. Everything is of God. Therefore, He knows if we love Him. He is that love. God is love. Are you telling me that God wants to know if he loves Himself? I am glad I came across this because this has confused me forever.

    Please explain.

    free will?

    (Anonymous)
    I have always been vexed by the fact that god knew, before he created certain people, that they would not choose him at their time of death. Somewhere, right now, someone just died that knew about god and didn't believe the story or the concept was valid. Why, then, did god create that person?

    Yeah, it just doesn't make sense. If God was perfect and good, out of love and justice, it simply wouldn't create people that are doomed to die.

    The following is two paragraphs from my page stating that "God Does Not Need To Test Us:

    "God knows who will enter Heaven - so why does it keep them on Earth?
    Given that God knows who will pass and who will fail, and therefore who will get into Heaven, what's the point of Earthly existence at all? God knows who will, in the future, deserve to enter Heaven. So why doesn't God, with its knowledge, simply put those people into Heaven NOW? It could do so, if it wanted. Nothing would be lost. Suffering would be reduced.

    God knows who will fail its tests. God knows, from even before the time when a person is born, whether or not they will pass its tests and enter heaven. Why then does God bother to create people who are to fail these tests? What's the point of the testing when it already knows the answers? Why not simply put those who will fail into hell, those who will pass into heaven, and not have to bother with all the confusion inbetween? But more importantly, why does God create people who it knows are going to fail tests and suffer torment in Hell? Either God is an immoral monster, or in reality there is no hell and everyone ultimately goes to heaven. We simply cannot say that evil is necessary; yet it still exists. God is either evil itself, or does not exist."

    Re: free will? (Anonymous) Expand
    Re: free will? (Anonymous) Expand

    God and Free Will

    (Anonymous)
    Do you think God is trapped? Do you think we were created to help free Him? I guess it's a little arrogant to think that, but I can't help thinking this. I have wondered this before and shrugged it off, but now I have to ask the question.

    Re: God and Free Will

    If God is the be-all and end-all, perfection, and is the being that created time, then God cannot change. You can 'improve' at some point in time, a being that is eternal and beyond time. You also can't 'improve' something that is apparently perfect. So... I rather doubt that anything that happens could 'free' God. God is therefore more like a robot, a principle, a Natural Law, than an actual thinking being.

    Re: God and Free Will (Anonymous) Expand

    something i read on one of your sites

    (Anonymous)
    "A good god would, obviously, put everyone in heaven immediately, whether they deserved it or not. "
    This is so funny because this is exactly what JC did and you don't want to see it. you're stuck on the choice thing that has to do with you and not god. I realize there are some synapsis that just don't reach across in most of the brains here and I truly am sorry that my first impulse is to say...stup....I know that is the wall that shuts down most of the wounded here, but it really is hard not to say it..I really hope you reach for the more sublime ... especially on a perfect day

    Re: something i read on one of your sites

    Clearly not, unless you are deluded, we are definately all still here on Earth.

    God's existence

    (Anonymous)
    To say God has no free will is completely ludicrous. You have to realize that time is a creation of God's and is therefore not bound by its limits. He does not see time as a line that is cuntinuosly rushing from the past to the future. Instead, he sees time as a single point; no parts, just everything at once.

    The very fact that we exist shows that God has a free will. He did not need us for his own existence, he willed us into existence. He created us with the gift of free will so that we can choose to know, love, and serve him in this life, and not just be little robots that he creates and programs to do whatever he wants.

    Re: God's existence

    (Anonymous)
    if god doesn't exist, there's no point in disproving his existence.

    why be so passionate about his/her/it's nonexistence?

    pointless. how does this help humanity? because if we are all in fact, ultimately all atoms ~ which are protons, neutrons and electrons..which are composed of quarks.. etc. there's no point in human morality. we're all just a jumble of atoms.. just mass.. destruction would be the same as creation.

    if there is no good or evil. we're just inconsequential specks of the universe. why live?

    the greater question is why has religion cropped up time and time again throughout human history? maybe society needs some sort of relief from this seemingly pointless existence. with all the space debris floating about, we can be all gone in a split second without us able to do anything about it.

    rk.

    Re: God's existence (Anonymous) Expand

    The time issue

    (Anonymous)
    I agree with almost everything you've said, except the idea that God exists outside of time and is thus immutable. If God is outside time, then he is also outside space and therefore the universe. This being the case, any concepts that apply to us (ie space-time and change over time) OR THEIR CONTRARIES cannot be transferred out of the universe the way you have suggested. We cannot know, science cannot know, and thus you cannot apply the physical concept of time to objects outside of the universe (space-time). This is exactly why science does not concern itself with the existence of God: if his effects/presence cannot be tested, then he does not fall into the scope of scientific endeavour.

    Re: The time issue

    "The Four Dimensions and the Immutability of God" by Vexen Crabtree (2007) looks deeply into the issue of "being outside of time" and what it means for God. There are many reasons for God's immutability (its perfection, its status as creator of time, its omniscience).

    If God exists, and can change, in a dimension that is temporal (i.e., where time exists), then we have to ask: Who created that dimension of time? To say that God is subject to time (and that God changes) is to say that there is another creator-god who was responsible for bestowing 'our' creator-god with its temporal abilities.

    "The Four Dimensions and the Immutability of God: Being Outside of Time" by Vexen Crabtree (2007) is where you want to start reading on these complexities!

    God and his Will

    (Anonymous)
    A will is aready free by its own word express, But you need to look his perfect will. Than you will understand the concept that God is perfect in all his deeds. thank you very much.

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