2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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2005
vexen

The Parable of the Vineyard Workers and The Lost Sheep

The Parable of the Vineyard in the Christian Bible suggest everyone is saved (universalism)

This is an excellent essay and an example of fair, fine exegetical work!

Thank you... I respect you as much as I respect the most established theistic and atheistic religious scholars, you proved to me from day one that you were a clever one! So it always makes me blush a bit when you give compliments!

Unfair, yes. Everyone, no.

(Anonymous)

2003-04-13 07:35 am (UTC)

Is God unfair? Yes, in that he gives us what we do not deserve. HE CHOSE the individuals to work in the vineyard. He went after HIS lost sheep, not any and every lost sheep. The gold coin was HIS, not just any gold coin. There seems to be no criteria for whom He choses, which gives the impression that it is unfair.

The verses indicate that God choses those whom he rewards, and finds when lost. This does not indicate universalism.

Comparison & Contradiction

(Anonymous)

2003-05-22 09:03 pm (UTC)

If Matthew says that all are saved, and Luke says that repentence is required, how do you chose which to believe?

If you chose to believe Matthew because you believe that all are saved (and that repentence is not required), then the words of Matthew don't hold any authority to support your viewpoint. If the Bible is self-contradictory, how can any part be trustworthy.

In the end, you are saying, "Look here's some bloke who wrote down stuff a long time ago that I think is true. Another bloke wrote down stuff about the same time that I disagree with, and both these writings are published in the same volume, but that's irrelevant..." -bernard.esther@bigpond.com

A man is hanging off a cliff, he cannot save himself. A reaches down to help him up. Will he choose the hand and be rescued? Will he be confident he can save himself. Is he so focused on the problem, that he cannot hear the offer of being pulled to safety or another person shouting up to him to take the hand? Or is he enjoying the view so much he does not know he's in trouble?
This is a parable I came up with to show that, people need to accept to be saved, they need to choose to take the hane, they do this by trusting God and doing what he says and that involves repenting. God did not push us, God cannot force us to be saved and God does not want us to fall but is waiting patiently for our response! Will we take his hand in humble trust or believe in our own selfrighteousness to save ourselves and end up falling! Those who fell, and are in need of saving(everyone) were not pushed by God, they put themselves in that position, the only way out however is through God, if they fall it is because God is limited by our freewill, by our choice, especially in the case of personal salvation, and so could'nt help us as we refused to be helped by him.
Please respond!

you seem extremely un-intelligent

(Anonymous)

2005-05-23 07:36 pm (UTC)

what are you talking about, that wasn't a parable. get a grip. stop asking ridiculous questions and focus on the truth. god will not save everyone, only those who put their trust in him to save them. do not talk of what you do not know. you are putting yourself in gods' bad graces.

Parable of the Vineyard etc. - what is repentance?

(Anonymous)

2006-06-05 11:19 pm (UTC)

Hi, Alec here (I know it says anonymous, I couldn't be arsed with all that logging in nonsense!)

I'm not sure the Luke and Mathew pov are contradictory as you suggest: the repentance that Luke refers to (metanoia 'mind-change' - but you knew that!) doesn't have to be a precondition for salvation, it could just as well be a description of the first stage of salvation. Like, you know that phrase about the first stage of wisdom being when you know that you don't know: well, the first stage of salvation is being shown that you need to be rescued. Does that work?

The Parable of the Vineyard in the Christian Bible suggest everyone is saved (universalism)

(Anonymous)

2007-01-11 05:10 pm (UTC)

All have sinned (Romans 3:23). The result of sin is eternal, spiritual death (Romans 6:23). However, Jesus Christ sacrificed Himself to pay that sin debt for us and if we freely accept Him for who He is, we will be saved (Romans 6:23, John 3:16, Romans 10:8-10). There is no alternative (John 14:6).

God is indeed loath to condemn anyone to Hell, but He has provided a means to salvation through the death of His Son and if anyone refuses to accept Him, they accept His Judgment. This is hardly unfair but rather completely logical. Not everyone will be saved; people must CHOOSE Christ.

Re: The Parable of the Vineyard in the Christian Bible suggest everyone is saved (universalism)

vexen

2007-01-11 05:24 pm (UTC)

The crucifixion and salvation myths of Christianity are utterly illogical and immoral.

"The crucifixion did not empower God as God is omnipotent. It did not aid his understanding of Humanity, as God is omniscient. God did not need to become Human to experience Human suffering: God already knew. God is able to judge us perfectly, because God is perfect, just and all-knowing. The crucifixion of Jesus did not improve God's judgement of us, as God was perfect both before and after the crucifixion. The crucifixion did not aid us, as knowing of Jesus was not the point of the crucifixion: If people such as Moses can know Jesus, and this is good, then God should be able to grant everyone the knowledge of Jesus. Note that Moses lived before Jesus was born. For anyone to know of Jesus before Jesus was born means that the crucifixion was unnecessary in order for people to know Jesus. Condoning god's guilt-ridden public relations scheme is immoral, especially if done for the selfish aim of attaining heaven. Rejecting such a monstrous and emotionally manipulative scheme (even if it results in going to hell) is more moral."
From "The Crucifixion Charade" by Vexen Crabtree

It is immoral that such a useless stunt should cause the suffering of an innocent person (Jesus) for the salvation of guilty people (everyone else). Only an immoral parent could devise such a scheme - especially when an all-powerful God doesn't NEED daft tricks with resurrected bodies in order to forgive people for sins that it designed them to commit in the first place.

Even if there was a God, and if the Bible was its word, then I would reject and run from such an immoral monster.

Re: The Parable of the Vineyard in the Christian Bible suggest everyone is saved (universalism)

(Anonymous)

2007-04-20 05:08 pm (UTC)

Hello.
I liked the last part of your above post:
"Even if there was a God, and if the Bible was its word, then I would reject and run from such an immoral monster."

The reason why I like it is because it is the only bit of real truth I have read on your site. There is a God, and the Bible is His word, and you have rejected and ran away from Him. (The only part that I don't believe to be true of course is the immoral monster part, but that's just me...)

I did want to write though to inform other readers that stumble upon this site that you do not always show the whole story, and when citing Bible verses, you sometimes mix and match ones that are not related. Case in point for this article is when you quote Mat. 12:11 about the sheep falling into the pit. This was not part of the same parable regarding the sheep that is saved. Christ was making a point that according to Jewish tradition/law if one of your sheep fell into a pit on the sabbath you were not allowed to save it, as you were not supposed to do any work on the sabbath. The thinking was that if God wanted it to live, it would still be alive and waiting for you on the next day. The point that Christ made was that the Jewish people had to lighten up a little on the rules they created. It was not God's intention to have your sheep die if it fell into a pit on the sabbath, go get it! That's why Christ was 'allowed' to heal the blind man on the sabbath.
The point I am making is that this verse has nothing to do with the lost sheep of Mat:18 so try not to confuse the two.

The verse in Lk. 15:7 is not saying that you need to repent in order to enter Heaven. It is saying that those 99 who need no repentance have already repented and joined God in His kingdom, and therefore have already been rejoiced over. The lost sheep, when he comes home is to be rejoiced over because he has just now repented.
All Salvation is free in the fact that your works or deeds do not get you into heaven any faster. The only thing you need to do is put your faith in Jesus Christ as He is the one that already paid for your salvation.

(Note: Vexen, do not take this as my personal goal to try and convert you. Frankly you are free to believe what you want, and I am not going to try to change you. This is for the others that read your site and may be confused by the things you say. Although I do find it ironic that your name is Crabtree. Maybe this is just your pen name or your Satanic name, but either way, the reference to the tree in which Christ was hung and the symbol of the crab which usually indicates being cranky or upset I find is very fitting...)

Remember people, that Satan is the father of lies and confusion, not God. To tell the real truth you have to do your own research and self studying.

yoshininja@iname.com

I know this post is old, but there is no contradiction between Luke and Mathew. The scriptures are written in the light of the holy spirit. The wisdom of man is foolishness before God. One who has not received the gift of living faith, does not have the gift of the holy spirit either. One is talking of one who has gone astray up in the mountains. (Mathew 18) And Jesus says "IF so be that he find it". This is a person who has gone into self righteousness. He has started building his own faith that is not based on Christ. There is no guarantee that he will be found.

The other one by Luke is talking about a person who has become lost. Who feels his own sin, who is searching and knocking. Jesus says "WHEN he find it". There is no doubt there. In this parable the sheep that were left behind are the the ones who are truly lost. They are more like the one that went astray in Mathew 18. He says they need no repentence. We all need repentence, but unless we recognize it, Jusus will say, "I know you not". He tells Peter that unless Peter allows him to wash his feet, he will have no part in him.

The two parables are written to describe two totally different souls conditions. The scriptures are much deeper than our intellect. But when it is considered in the light of the holy spirit, it is plain and clear.

OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED

rodgertutt

2010-06-19 10:45 pm (UTC)

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism

Which view of salvation is true?

Two good expositions specifically answering that question!

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
If necessary, copy and paste the links into your browser.

COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY

Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html

Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html

Matt Slick
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
http://scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html

Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html

Hal Lindsey
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm

Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html

W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html

A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM

Copy and paste into Google
GOD’S TRUTH FOR TODAY LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html (98% UR writers)
and
IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism down through the centuries.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
also see
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/Church-History.html

TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html

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