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![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) vexen | |
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"Universalism: If there is a Good God, Everyone Must Go to Heaven" by Vexen Crabtree (2002) Tags: crabtree, god, gods, heaven, hell, judgement, justice, punishment, religion, universalism, vexen, vexen crabtree
Listening To: "Der Leiermann (club version)" by Covenant
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From: vexen |
Date: November 4th, 2003 10:41 am (UTC) |
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Re: Why your arguments for universalism are invalid...
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The arguments are valid. You didn't say WHICH scripture you think would be valid. The Koran? I-Ching? Hebrew scriptures? As you sound like a moron, I'll guess you meant Christian scipture as not many other people are so arrogant. Relying on Scripture is limited, confused, wrong, short-sighted, illogical, irrational, stupid, closed minded and wont get you anywhere. HOWEVER, here is some scripture for you http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_vineyard.html |
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From: alynna_serenity |
Date: June 1st, 2004 03:39 pm (UTC) |
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I finally read your essay about "Universalism"
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Yay! ... good points you've made (along with Empiress's help).
Hmmm, and reading your essay has brought something to mind:
***you should see "What Dreams May Come"***
the movie touches many of the same points your essay has stated ~but~ the story is a bit different
... well, people do stay in a state of hell because it is nigh impossible for them to escape their prison. So, the movie proposes that the best bet for people to be released from hell is for them to be made to realize the confinement of their prison. Well, how about this analogy for you to think about:
There is a steel box that someone (wonderfully) is kept in by illusions he or she suffers...
...yet the person doesn't realize he or she is imprisoned because he or she is deceived or blind, deaf, and dumb to the fetters that tie him or her down. So, the steel box is a place where the person sleeps in, which is a place he or she is unaware of to know it as a prison.
Hmmm, with this analogy in mind, a person imprisoned in hell is best released by compassion which comes in from the outside. So, you could attribute this to being "god's saving grace".
Well, I'm --funny enough to say-- a Roman Catholic but a Buddhist by discipline. And I agree with Shinran Shonen (founder of Shin Buddhism) to say that I'm in no place to judge who goes to hell and who doesn't. Instead I best think I'm going to hell if ever I am so prideful to think I'm specially loved by god because I'm a Christian, or by whatever other elitist title I may tote.
And believe me when I say I get into fights with fellow Christians because some of them are damned presumptuous to assume that by the "Bible alone" --or by their special relationship with Jesus Christ-- they are specially superior to Atheists, people from other religions, animals, and even plants. Well, if ever I agreed with that devil dribble, I'll be sure to not rest easy because a wonderful deceased Buddhist monk I've come to know during his lifetime and admire for his compassion will be in hell because he isn't in the right religion to get the right to go into heaven. And if ever I has hard-hearted enough to be in a Christian *clique* (or simply be part of "Jesus and Pals" ~or~ "The Christian Crew") then I'll be doing evil by viewing nonChristians as inferior/cheaper/and disposable to the likes of myself.
Honestly, I walked away from the Church (that being Christianity altogether) because I got sick to know that someone had to be favoured in order to get into heaven. I walked away from the Church when I was 11-years-old but then I came back when I was 22 because of nearly life-destroying experiences. Now I subscribe to Universalism but I also think that EVERYONE will first go to hell or be put into detention for being very naughty until they are enlightened by divine grace. So, I believe that I'll be damned lucky to first go to heaven. And basically, I believe that people are naughty students while god (the divine) is the patient teacher. Which means regardless of good intentions (following the saying: "good intentions pave the way to hell"), and the other snobbery (enspousing the idea of the moral/and the good life) that people think will earn them the right to avoid hell, I believe everyone is going to hell until they are proven to be enlightened enough to go to heaven.
I really use this pessimism of mine to not be pushed around by Jehovah's Witnesses, people damning me to hell, and other twits who think they can sell me indulgences (a right) for me to get into heaven. So, I believe everyone first dies, end up in hell, and then *-by that humility-* people are saved by divine compassion. Overall, I'm a Cranky Catholic with a Buddhist inkling. [And believe me when I say that all Catholics subscribe to believe that they don't know if they're saved (allowed to go into heaven) immediately at the day of their judgment (or after they're DEAD).]
Well...
The End.
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From: alynna_serenity |
Date: June 1st, 2004 04:06 pm (UTC) |
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...and am I omnipotent enough to silence all argument to what I believe in?
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The answer is NO!
... and people everywhere should bugger off (heh heh heh :D)
Well, I just don't care if someone argues with me. Which means, I basically expect to be picked at and I know my points can't parry all attacks.
I am limited but with a good understanding to be wise.
Well, I have points to make but I can't cover myself (to guard my argument and beliefs) everywhere at once. Yet I don't die easily, and "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger" (something like a bacteria, which becomes resistant to antibiotics).
Anyway, Vexen, I respect how you have a high profile in toting things that some people disdain. I respect your fortress-mentality when you're under attack. And I think I'm a bit like you, in that I have inner-peace. Well honestly, nobody can break me down because it's been proven that I don't die easily.
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: July 25th, 2007 06:34 pm (UTC) |
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Re: A Huge "Thank you!"
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Hi! I agree with you on alot of things.God has just shown me that we are all completely innocent.Found the loop hole.All of our spirits (hearts) are broken.The symptoms of that are the same as for post-traumatic stress disorder.Equals=helpless,hopeless,depressed,angry,hateful,resentful,revengeful,low self-esteem,self destructive additions(see how everybody fits under this?)Jesus said in Mat.22:37-40 that the 10 commandments=Love God,your neighbor and yourself.You need a good working heart to love,and all of ours are somewhat damaged.Some are completely dead.Took another to break our heart=we are innocent of all charges.Last June I reread Adam and Eve.After the apple bit they also had some of these symptoms=hiding,afraid,self-conscious(put on fig leaves),and they started blaming everyone else.This is the curse of mankind.We "catch" it from each other.Some "cruel" person comes along and breaks our heart,then we are now a carrier,and break other people's hearts.For 19 years I've been waiting for the end of this world.I believe this is it.The system.Our beliefs are the only thing keeping us back from World Peace=Heaven on Earth! The cure is to see all this. Your conscience clears,spirit starts mending,and you start getting back the "fruits of the spirit"=Love,joy,peace,temperance,etc.Gal.5:22 You have to get yourself better first,then you'll see the innocence of others. After a few months I noticed how I was sure defending others.I wondered what was going on with that? Answer?My heart was starting to work again. I think Jesus said in Luke that you cannot see the kingdom of God unless you are born again. Before the apple God told Adam and Eve that the day they ate from that tree, they would surely die.They spiritually died that day.Looks like this all is a resurrection.Spiritual one. Anyway God did help me with all of this.Five years ago my husband died.Then I set out to help a heroin addict.God then told me "you are not the bad person this world has made you out to be".I then became extremely paranoid thinking that there was a conspiracy against me.The police sent me to a nuthouse to get evaluated.I got out ,but I'd left reality. I thought I was in Hell to fight the Devil,and most everyone was on his side.For three years I was stuck in spiritul wacko world.When I saw this truth,that my spirit broke when I was 7,I finally got released from that place.Adam and Eve covers everybody.I wish you all the best!Love Gayle (imagine not being mad at anybody anymore.I'm almost there)
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: May 15th, 2007 08:19 pm (UTC) |
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do murderers, rapists, hitler, molestors, genociders go aswell?
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so, you are claiming that everyone goes to heaven...hmmm...ask the children who saw their father beaten brutally, their mother raped and misfiguired and their house burnt down in germany, palestine, chchniya and any other country that is or was ruled by a dictator or zionosts?
i am a muslim and islam is a rligion of peace. this is the proof; any person who commits a serious crime and sincerley repents and never does it again shall be forgiven by Allahs mercy and will go to heaven. but any other person who does NOT fell guilty and does NOT repent will go to hell, and that is logic and fairness is it not? think about it. if somebody murdered your mum or raped your girlfriend and does not feel guilty or repent would you like to see them in eternal bliss? no i'm sure you would not but in fact the opposite, you would like to see them in eternal torture for the digusting crime that they have commited.
i have this theory in why you suggest that everyone goes to heaven. i think that you are so afraid of commitment to anything that you believe that no matter what you do you will go to heaven. so, as to get out of any commitment and anything that goes with it you have convinced yourself that you will still go to heaven no matter waht yoi do. so in actual truth; you are lazy. simple and pure lazy i'm sorry to say and i really think you should change.
and i also think that you should take waht you said about God being evil back because Allah is perfect and no one is as perfect as him. you can not begin to comprehend the majesty and beauty of God. our puny human minds can not imagine his immortality and his greatness which is why we tend to rebel and deny his existence.
i beg of you to rethink your ideas and consider the truth. because although it seems easier to deny Allah's existence believe me its not.
have you ever asked yourself why we exist? and what comes after death..is it just nothing?
thankyou
peace
wasalaam
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: October 5th, 2007 03:06 pm (UTC) |
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God's Empathy!
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Vexen, you are, in my opinion, on exactly the right line of thought. One of the things that brought me to sharing your belief is that God (assuming there is a god- I am pretty sure there is) must be perfect in every way. This is because 'the maker' is always more complex than the 'object' made. E.g. No matter how advanced human technology becomes, we will NEVER make anything that is more advanced than ourselves (the human body is mind bogglingly complex, more so than most would think). So God must be perfect as the universe he created is (physically) perfect (with its laws and constants co-operating perfectly).-God must be more complex/perfect than the universe.
As God is perfect, HE MUST HAVE PERFECT EMPATHY. He must be able to perfectly empathise with anyone and everyone. He understands why criminals do what they do. He understands how their upbringing led to their brains seeing crime as acceptable. When Hitler ordered the slaughter of countless Jewish people, he saw it as an acceptable action, at least to his standards. But Hitler could not go to Heaven with these standards. That's why the idea of 'temporary Hell' makes perfect sense. In Temporary Hell, Hitler may recieve a mixture of teaching and punishment (in what form I wouldn't know). The latter of which would most definately be neccessary as Hitlers views would probably have been deeply engrained in him.
Anyway, point made:- assuming God is perfect, he has perfect EMPATHY, and so will forgive the sins of all people (no matter how bad), and will have them (the people) 'treated' so that they see how wrong they were.
P.s.-sorry for the LOOOOONNNNGGG message.
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: October 5th, 2007 03:35 pm (UTC) |
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Advise needed Vexon (off topic)!
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Hi there, I'm the same guy from the message above. I wanted to ask Vexon a question, a question on moral ethics in fact. What are your views on sex before marriage? I'm 17yrs old, and to me it seems ethical in most ways. One of the only problems I think there is with it is that if you leave your partner after having had a sexual relationship with them, you may have made an emotional bond with them and so would be hurting them by leaving them.
Yet is sex before marriage (on more than one occassion/ with a number of different people) okay if you and the partner understands the likelihood that there will be a break-up, and that you know you will both be fine emotionally when that time comes.
My main problem is that as a teenage male, I have URGES. I make SURE that these urges don't result in any thoughts of ADULTERY (that goes for peoples girlfriends aswell), but I feel that if I abstained from sex then I would have great hardships, which would reduced the quality of my life. I feel that if you can forfill you 'needs' without being immoral then that okay. I am right in thinking this? PWB THANKS!
P.s. your probably a busy guy, so if you haven't time to reply don'y worry about!
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