Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
vexen

Assumptions that theists make about God

"The Assumptions about God and Creation, of Both Theists and Atheists" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

I announced a version of this page on the LiveJournal Atheist Community and some good debate followed.

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Christianity

(Anonymous)
Quite a good essay but it attacks monotheism rather than Christianity. Christians believe that Jesus was God incarnate, so most of your arguments (God doesn't necessarily have emotions, isn't necessarily good etc) break down. Jesus certainly had emotions, is generally acknowledged to have been a good man.

Unfortunately it's a moot point, because the existence of Jesus is doubted.

Secondly, if Jesus *did* exist, the belief that he was the son of a god is probably a mistake. Just because people believe it, doesn't make it true.

Also, why would a god have human emotions? Why wouldn't it have the emotions of a cow, or an alien, etc? Saying it has human emotions is a result of our ego, of us not being able to see the bigger universal picture. It's an "error of homocentricity":
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/homocentricity.html

Re: Christianity (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Christianity (Anonymous) Expand

God omniscient?

(Anonymous)
I like your arguments, and though I may be mingling thoughts from a couple of your essays, I thought I'd take the time to point out two things. One point in your essay is that an omnipotent being can obtain omniscience, but my thought is that in order to be omnipotent one would need to be omniscient by definition (one cannot exercise meaningful control over something that one has no knowledge of). Another point you made in another essay is that any omniscient being would have no free will, but I would further that to say that the creation of any omniscient being erases the free will of everyone in the universe (If an omniscient being knows that I will commit some act in the future, then I have no choice but to commit that act. To do otherwise would mean that that being is not omniscient.)

Based on this argument, it is impossible for an omniscient god to exist, and for that god to have given us free will.

Hope you'll take the time to consider my arguments, whether or not you do I'll probably continue to read your essay's, they are very refreshing

Re: God omniscient?

I agree that you can't be omnipotent without first being omniscient.

Try:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/goddeniesfreewill.html
which is a page saying what you've said... that the existence of an omniscient being denies free will.

List of essays on free will:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/freewill.html

Re: God omniscient? (Anonymous) Expand

illogical sense

(Anonymous)
"There is no proof that the Universe was created by a god, therefore the assumption that the most-powerful-being in existence is as powerful as omnipotence is an assumption"

These are your comments the nature of which extend through your essay. If you stood back to try and assess what you were writing, you probabaly would have realised that your argument is illogical. You use the very beliefs and system of beliefs that you deny, in order to make your own argument.

EG> How do you know that there is no proof that the universe was created? Just cause you haven't come across it, or perhaps appreciated it does mean that there is no proof. For you to make such a statement, you have to be all knowing which you are not.

I would be happy to deal with each and every single point that you make but perhaps you would not want this or i might simply be wasting my time. You can email me on tasmin_minsat@yahoo.com if you want this discussion.

Re: illogical sense

(Anonymous)
Just in passing, I would add one other point which is that the if your arguing about proof, then the onus is upon you to disprove the existence of God, not the other way round. It would help to establish common ground if you state what you consider to be valid proof. For instance, if you belive in evolution (arguably the main argument used as an alternative by atheist to disprove the existence of God) what standard of proof have you accepted to belive in the theory.

Re: illogical sense

You are free to point out an example of something that is illogical, but, I do not believe that your assertion that the text is illogical is true. The assumptions stated on the page are assumptions that would need to be proven by a theist in addition to proving that a God exists at all.

What belief systems are you saying I "use", and "deny"? I am merely pointing out assumptions, not confirming or denying much at all.

When I say "there is no proof" I could not mean that "there will never be proof", merely that there is no proof now. I do not claim to be omniscient. History is on my side, though, when I say that the existence of God has had no historical proof that has held. If there was proof, we'd all be theists.

Don't forget, however, that the proof of a Creator does not mean we can assume that any particular religion is true partially or at all in any respect other than that there is a Creator. Could be an evil, unconscious creator for all we would know.

I don't advise going against every single point at once, but it would be nice if you'd give an example (say, one particular point) of what is "illogical". Normally, starting at one point a debate gradually expands to cover all others.

Re: illogical sense (Anonymous) Expand

Heres an assumption about you

(Anonymous)
In your heart, you know that God exists.

You may be opinionated and extremely so but really, your no different to the rest of us. When your time comes to die, you will also call out for help. In your heart you know that he does exists.

I don't know what sort of upbringing you have had, or what your experiences have been or why indeed you think the way that you do.

With respect, I find nothing more then intellectual crap in your arguments.

If you are truthful in what you say,that there is no God, then create the like of an ant or of a fly. Why is it that when posed with a task like this you become intellectually defeated.

Whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, upon your death, you will know the truth which already manifests in your heart.

You can quote theolagists, and philospophers and scientists and who ever you like, it makes no ounce of difference to the fact that you will Die and you will learn the truth.

In the history of man, you are amongst the first to claim that there is no God (the idea being relatively recent).

I pity you and people like you. You are so screwed up in your head, that you cant recongnise a basic fact.

What happened in your life that left you like this? WAKE UP.




Re: Heres an assumption about you

I'm met your type before - normally American, sometimes an insolated European... a person who can't possibly imagine that someone hasn't been brought up with the same theistic beliefs as yourself.

There is no basic fact that God exists... there are no gods... none of them are true.

Perhaps, if you gave me a billion years of evolution, I *would* create an ant. What's your point? That because YOU don't know how things work means there must be a god?

I think in YOUR heart, you know there is no God, and your desperate arguments and head-in-the-sand approach to the world, denying even that others' don't believe your superstitions, are an emotional block on your brain. Can't deal with the fact that there's no God? Well fine, continue to think there is one... but you're delusional, friend.

There are no logical arguments for the existence of god.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/atheism.html
And... atheism is not "new", or even "fairly new". There are (for example) atheist world religions such as Buddhism (hardly "new"), but older ones such as various Greek philosophers (these are the ones who debated with the early Christian "forefathers" about their theology and theism, 2000 years ago).

Christianity is newer than atheism, especially the closed-minded "I can't possibly even imagine how people can believe anything else but what I believe!" type of theism that you suffer from.

"What happened in your life that left you like this? WAKE UP"

What happened? I was brought up to believe in REALITY, not invisible best friends, that's what happened, and it's about time you grew up and discarded such dreams, too.

Occam's razor and faith

(Anonymous)
Theistic belief systems often require more assumptions to be made about the nature of the universe than current physics and related disciplines require. The principle of Occam's razor is usually interpreted to mean that an argument requiring fewer axioms is more likely to be correct than one requiring more and hence implies that the scientific model of the universe is more likely correct than the theistic one. This does not however mean that it is correct.

Essentially, my point is that a system of belief or logical argument can make as many assumptions as it needs to without harming its rigour, provided it is self consistent. Whilst the standard model of physics has yet to be proved self consistent, the supposition of an omnipotent being can be used to gloss over pretty much any inconsitency in a theistic system. Thus, while theism may require more assumptions (thereby making itself the less favourable model according to Occam) it does have the rather attractive property of self consistency.

Despite this, I'm an atheist.

In a grain of Sand

(Anonymous)
If in a grain of Sand holds the key to all thats in the world, Then how can you say there is no God, For from nothing came love for us.

Every thing moves and exist through God, God is space and every thing it's self. The word became flesh means, your very own body is the living God. That does not mean you are God. But rather you borrow your body from God. Thats why we must not sin. For when we sin we use God to do it.Then the Holy Spirit leaves those that sin, while yet the father stays with you even while you are sinning, because if he left you, you would fall to the ground as dust. When you sin against the body you condemn your self, because you hurt God. And in the end when you die, and when you see God face to face he won't even see you because you were not able to see him your whole life. But Satan will, and you'll be the one suffering in the end. If you only knew what I have seen, and what I know and what I could show you. You wouldn't be writing what you have been writing about. And you would be much happier not because of scripture, but because what I have is real.

Space wasn't created, It has always been, for from nothing came something. Look at how a star is made in space. A bunch of gases of all different colors start mixing together, and when they implode they make a star.This is the very beginning of any thing.

Every thing in the universe is made up of what?
ATOMS.

When you separate atoms what do you get?
You get vibrations and different colors.

So you get sound and light! If you start looking at nature you will discover that in the Bible there is explanations that match what science is telling us. When your heart is closed you will not experience God. But when your heart is open to God you will experience him,and you finally come to know him, and you will know that he is good and that he loves you and he doesn't want you to be confused any longer and that he has emotions.

quick question

(Anonymous)
Hi there.

I just stumbled onto your website and found your writing very interesting. It seems like you are very much against a God who might love you...am I right? And I am curious about what you think about the Bible helping us know more about who God is, what He is like and how He wants to relate to us.


Re: quick question

I believe in truth... I'm not "against" any God, I just don't think there *are* any Gods, whether they happen to be ones that love us or not.

GRR

(Anonymous)
This entire conversation makes me sick. How dare you go against my God!

Also, just because something has "fewer assumptions" does NOT make it any more or less true. Do you realize that the theory of evolution is toppling, scientists are second guessing themselves every day, and you are still blindly believing it all?

Talk about blind faith. sheesh. It's not like science comes to one conclusion and sticks with it for eternity. Well I guess God has changed... oh wait, NO HE HASN'T!

Re: GRR

(Anonymous)
This entire conversation makes me sick. How dare you go against my God!

YA OMG HOW DAER YOU BELIEF DIFFRNT THAN ME!?!1 WUT UR PROBLEM!?

Also, just because something has "fewer assumptions" does NOT make it any more or less true. Do you realize that the theory of evolution is toppling, scientists are second guessing themselves every day, and you are still blindly believing it all?

Prove it.

Talk about blind faith. sheesh. It's not like science comes to one conclusion and sticks with it for eternity. Well I guess God has changed... oh wait, NO HE HASN'T!

Again, prove it.

-RZephyr07@gmail.com

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