From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 6th, 2002 01:52 am (UTC)		(Link)
Let me take a minute to "react...." (1 of 2)

As a Satanist, I've encountered this same set of complaints about the general Satanic philosophy a few times. Actually, it's sort of refreshing to encounter someone who's open-minded enough to take such an objective view of Satanism and to question its philosophical basis as a stand-alone religion. Nevertheless, I think these complaints are the result of one's less than complete grasp of the overall thrust of the Satanic philosophy and the movement at large. I'll do my best to address it in the order it was presented in the essay:


1. Satanism is Reactionary?

First of all, let's clear up a few laws of physics. Nothing is absolutely spawned on its own. All things that exist or occur are really reactions in the first place -- for example, the reaction of an animal's immune system to dangerous invaders. Reaction itself isn't the issue in Satanism, since of course it's a reaction to something. Everything is.

What is unique in Satanism is that while it is indeed a reaction, it is a deliberate reaction. It is a shaped and strategic reaction, designed with full knowledge -- and full admission -- of being so, with all the credit given to Human ingenuity. And while its name is absolutely indicative of its nature, its works stand alone: Satanists are some of the most creative, independant, strong-willed and truly Human people on the planet. While the Satanic movement was borne of frustration at restrictive society, and while the name Satan was surely the sharpest knife to use to cut through those straps, the underlying spirit of Human Freedom is at the heart of the movement, just as it will be the heart of every new movement which seeks to relieve Humanity of unnecessary baggage.

Satanism does indeed stand in stark contrast to the conditions which spawned it -- the ignorance, the fear, and the outright sheepish conformity of the herd. And, yes, like previous movements it will eventually run out of steam (in its current form) as those conditions are met and dealt with. But after all, isn't that sort of the point? If the movement is to correct the wayward path of the herd, and that goal is accomplished, why even bother anymore? Just like any other job -- there's a time to dig the mine, and a time to enjoy the silver.


2. Satanism is Mainly Rhetoric?

You're right. The occult facade of modern Satanism is shallow. In fact where the shock stops, so does "Satanism." But that's part of the genius of the religion. Satanism is not intended to be a permanent religion to suit everyone, or to last for millenia, or to become the next Christianity. The very reason the "religion" is there at all is to provide a link between a modern Humanity which has known religion in various forms for ten thousand years and the next incarnation of Man, a creature entirely trusting and dependant on himself. If Satanism was an esoteric, dogmatic system full of deep and astounding "spiritual truths," who knows how long people might get lost in it? Rather, the facade that is Satanism serves as an adapter between a religious Man and a Carnal, self-fulfilled Man. By at once attacking the obvious lies and hypocrisy of previous religions, and presenting a system of rational self-interest, Satanism draws Humanity away from the illusion of a dual "spiritual" and "carnal" existence, and teaches it to be satisfied in the "carnal" alone. By being shallow, and showing how "deep" religion is folly, Satanism forces the psyche to latch onto the real.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 6th, 2002 01:53 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Let me take a minute to "react...." (2 of 2)

3. Satanism is too Dependant on Emotion and Human Ego?

Satanism is about unashamed acceptance of who and what you are. Humans have egos, and egos must be fed. That's just the cold hard truth of the matter. Yes, Satanism feeds the ego, but Satanism also makes it abundantly clear to the Satanist that the religion itself does NOTHING. It is not the contrived philosophy of Satanism which feeds the ego, but the Human need for Self-Preservation. Satanism advocates acceptance of this inextricable aspect of our psyche. Believe it or not, that's a good thing -- I tend to think that once our religions stop teaching us to destroy ourselves, maybe we'll be able to stop destroying each other. Just a thought.


4. Satanism misunderstands Independence?

Okay, here the writer seems to have seen the point of Satanism coming, and hid beneath a rock or something. Alright, I'll take it from the top. The self-deification advocated by Satanists is not a call to one's own absolute supremecy over all others to the point of expecting to be worshipped. Rather, it is the removal of the concept of "god" from the empty skies and placing it back where it belongs -- inside the Human Spirit. Any person intelligent enough to make that shift both ritually and practically is going to carry a few basic cannotations along with it. Our first loyalty is always to ourselves, and our next loyalty is to our friends and our family. Then there is the loyalty to Humanity as a single unit in the cosmos. Yes, we are our own gods -- but that simply means that it is our own individual will which directs our path. It's not to say we are totally without need of human companionship or interactions -- although some of us are, like it or not. There is always a basic love among real Satanists for the Human Race (or at least its most admirable components), and therefore, there will always be a basic respect and acknowledgement of human relationships.

5. Satan is an Unworthy Symbol?

Getting back to the first remarks I made here, let me re-iterate that Satanism, being a modern religion of Human self-sufficiency, is not supposed to last forever. Furthermore, it is not the shock value that Satanism is built on. Satanism is built on sound, Human philosophies, and a tangible Human Spirit which will always be the motivating force behind Human endeavors. Satanism as a religion does not contain this spirit, it never has, and it never will. Satanism is simply the first modern religion which has absolutely embraced Human Nature on its own inherent benefits both to the individual and to the community at large.

Surely, like the Serpent Himself, Humanity is like a beast who dons many skins before its time is done. And like every other philosophy, Satanism will meet the end of its usefulness. Satanism has never disputed this fact, and no intelligent Satanist disputes it. As the act of becoming is everlasting, temporal suits of philosophy will always be created, used, and cast away. The unique thing in Satanism is that its inception marks the first time Humans have fully understood and grasped the concept that they themselves are the makers of gods and devils, and as the creators of creators, they are now beginning to awaken to the fact that a Human's power stretches every bit as far as his imagination. From now on, we will not create gods and pretend to be their slaves, but create gods and set them to work for us.

In the larger picture, no single religion will ever be the answer -- it is the inherent desire and drive for evolution which has made Humanity the champion race on Earth, and it is the realization of our own self-creation and self-actualization which will transform Humanity into the champions of a much larger domain.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 6th, 2002 01:57 am (UTC)		(Link)
3..2..1.. Contact

Who knows if anyone even reads this stuff?

Anyway, if anyone's interested in my contact information...

WebSite The Devil's Tale (http://www.geocities.com/tdt235/central.html)

E-Mail inferenzum@hotmail.com (mailto:inferenzum@hotmail.com)

Hail Satan!
Rev. Inferenzum

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 10th, 2005 10:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: Let me take a minute to "react...." (2 of 2)

Satanism has alot in common w/the anti-faith rationalist movement/pseud-religion called Universism{which aims to unite atheists,agnostics,deists,pantheists,trancendentalists,secular humanists,freethinkers of variuos stripes}, check it out
www.universist.org and www.faithless.org
I'm advocating for Satanaists and Universists to respect each other and aknowledge each iother as kin in the battle against faith{if they are willing to get past the incredibly minor differences in their ideaologies}.

Hail reason.

Bill Baker

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 10th, 2002 04:41 am (UTC)		(Link)
Why I am not a Satanist by Empiress

I found this essay very refreshing, accurate and articulate. I had reached similar conclusions myself over the years due to my involvement within Satanism (tending to be non CoS).

One group that is not rectionary is the Society of Dark Lily. Not many people have heard of this group, but their teachings, although LHP go beyond the 'Satanic norm'.

Regards

Lyceus

	From: z3ro666	Date: November 13th, 2002 01:14 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I found the essay interesting, to say the least, though I do feel that the author judged the religion in a method a tad to restrictive to be fair.

I am a Satanist because I agree with LaVey's points, and I sympathize with his philosophies. The author treats Satanism's statements, arguments, and ideologies as more of a 'rule book' than a 'guideline,' which I don't feel is the case.

- Adam

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 11th, 2002 02:46 am (UTC)		(Link)

I agree with Empiress. Instead of using some dastardly Christian symbol why not just call yourselves what you really are: agnostics, athiests, or antitheologians? I think you enjoy the shock value of the term and use it in order to unite with other people who share your values. It gives you something to stand for in the same way that religions do for believers. I agree with most of your phylosophy, but would feel foolish telling someone I'm a Satanist or affiliating with a group that calls themselves that. I am just content with accepting that I don't have all the answers and that we have some power to shape our own destiny if we want to.

	From: vexen	Date: December 11th, 2002 03:03 am (UTC)		(Link)

You sound like a sensible person!

Yes, sometimes the shock factor is part of the appeal:
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/enema.html

And yes, I could simply be an anti-theologian, like Nietzsche, but in most the world religions the anti-theologian is called Satan, or Shaitan, etc, and such beings are listed as the Seventy Seven infernal names, I find pleasure in embracing the symbolism of Satanism and the Satans of the world, so much so that I am actually a Satanist rather than a mere "strong atheist", however I very much understand that Satanism isn't for everyone and many people simply aren't Satanists.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 12th, 2002 04:02 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Just a few more thoughts...I understand Satanism isn't for everyone. Like Empiress said, it is a "refreshing" philosophy; however, I can't hardly call it a religion because it believes in nothing but science and being the best that one can be because this life is all you get...etc. Without all the intriguing symbolism it would be kind of a sensible but boring phylosophy that wouldn't even need a following. All the symbolism is just a vice I think La Vey used to suck people in and make a name for himself while using other people's sensible but mundane philosophies and calling it a religion. That's just my opion. And according to one sight supposedly put out by his daughter: http://www.churchofsatan.org/aslv.html , La Vey was a hypocrate himself, a wife beater, an animal abuser, a pathological liar, a child abuser and a fool. Now this sight could have been put out by anybody, even some religious person trying to give Satanism a bad name. It's up to the reader to decide, but I think there might be some truths there. I think Satanism gives people who don't believe in the mainstream religions and sprituality something to stand for and believe in while living in a world full of nothing. I can't say there's anything wrong with that, however, and it is good to empower oneself as the philosophies teach. Satanism will never become mainstream even if a lot of people like myself become disillusioned by the mainstream religions because most people will always associate it with something negative. I don't however think that Satanism intends to become mainstream or it would lose it's intrigue.
Now I don't buy all that cult abuse garbage and I know a lot of the claims have been disproven. But there are still some oddballs out there who will call themselves Satanists, not following La Vey, and really and truly mean they worship this actual powerful spiritual being and think they should go around being cruel, rebellious, destrustive, law breaking socio paths and gain power from this mythical being. They may get into all the Ouji boards, black magic, and think they can cast spells and such. Of course these are mostly teenagers and such, but I think that the word Satanism will always be associated wtih this no matter how much people try to educate others on La Vey's meanings. We have such an oddball here on California's deathrow named Richard Ramirez, and I doubt he even has a clue who La Vey is, but that's his interpretation of Satanism, and it is what most people will always believe.
I myself think the thought of Satanism is intriguing because of the associations with darkness because I do like horror movies and am intrigued by the occult even though I don't believe in any of that stuff. And so it is strange to find out that Satanism is really a sensible phylosophy. I actually thought of becoming a La Vey's "satanist" myself for a short while, but decided that I would be a hypocrate if I did it because I would feel foolish. That's not to say that satanists are foolish nor hypocritical, I am just talking about myself here. I think I would enjoy the shock value a little bit, but I would be too awkwardly aware of why I would choose to call myself a Satanist. And in doing so I would feel a bit imature and adolescentish.
I also admit that I would like to believe in a spiritual reality and a soul and God and all that, but I am too aware of why I want to believe in such things and it's mostly for comfort and to give meaning to existance where I really just can't seem to find any. But something inside of me tells me that it's really just fairy tales. So I tend toward the philosophies where you have to find meaning within yourself and to make life what you want of it. Thank you for making your sights though they have provided me with many hours of entertainment and insight.

	From: vexen	Date: December 12th, 2002 05:50 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Many Satanists believe in much more than just science, LaVey himself believed in real magic, having a real affect on people, via ritual and drama, beyond that which science can explain (hence why it is called magic).

Some of the claims that the First Church of Satan (the link you posted is on the FCoS website) make about LaVey are truly ridiculous and I'm not going to spend time on them. You are right, Satanism will never become mainstream.

Satanism *is* more than philosophy (but note that even some LaVey Satanists consider it only a philosophy, and reject me calling it a religion), I think.

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/needfordogma.html
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/humanism.html (Satanism is more than Humanism)

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 10th, 2005 11:04 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Lavey,majick and Science.

Ah... but that majick is merely as of yet either undiscovered,not fully understood,as of yet unlabbelled and not accepted by{yet; but some day likely will be}future "science".
It is true that science now does'nt understand it all, but much of it is evidenceable and much of the "majicks" of the past have become science fact.
I have a feeling that Lavey himself knew of this fact.
call it majick or natural law, it's all the same, it is all a part of this natural universe.

peace

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 12th, 2002 04:35 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Ok I was being a little hypocritical in the last post when I said, "That's not to say that satanists are foolish..." I actually do think Satanism is a little foolish and I do laugh at it a little bit because of what I read about La Vey and because of the symbolisms. I'm probably just being arrogant. It's still a good philosophy though. I just can't embrace it. But all the work Vexen put into these sights is still really appreciated. It really stimulated my mind and gave me a lot to think about. I think Vexen is extremely intellingent even if I disagree with somethings. These sights have been a nice indulgence for me.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 14th, 2002 02:28 am (UTC)		(Link)
Comments

Down here where I live, we have a small, small association,in fact we are just 3 by now. I realized Satanism is free-thinking too and you do not have to find 100% of LaVey´s words suitable for your own goals. I think that where there are no beliefs, there is no blasphemy, we do not waste time on throwing out blasphemies or criticisms on christianity. We spent many time hating christians and they were still eating and sleeping, we were angry alone, they didn´t realize. You could say that we might have not taken action, but if we had we could probably be in jail or something. We could have taken revenge wisely, but we do not waste time on planning revenges...besides, the biggest damage we received from christianity is that It, through years, planted on us fears, terrible ones. But my mother (yes, she is a christian) did not do it with any bad intention, she did it because she thought it was the best for me...it didn´t work like that, I couldn´t have ever been a christian, I didn´t like the summision and the turn-the-other-cheek attitude, but it has worked out well for her, it´s got her midly happy(maybe totally, I could not say), so if it did my mother´s existence more comfortable, then it´s good for her, it is good to some extent. I could not waste any time on resentments, it´s just that I like living like a satanist and I cannot believe in any gods.I find it to be a more practical way o life. And yes, there was a time when it was because it was a threat against ALL that was ever to be good, when it was more obviously REACTIONARY. If you believe in whatever, it´s ok for me, I give this satanist freedom to myself, not to others but myself, the freedom to live satisfied in the most possible aspects, not dissatisfied by any others beliefs, not angry or hateful because of those long-gone crusades or any shit like that, if I find anger in my way, I´ll let it flow, I´ll let it fall on any who damages me, if there will not be any undesired consequence. What I want is the ego unvulnerability, as Lao Tse thaught us. Tha´s more independent.
Oh, We do not tolerate drug or alcohol use(abuse?)...We KNOW alcohol is drug. We believe that once you USE you´ll very probably abuse, and we are not here for anyone to find out how much they started to abuse, we want convinced, strong, vice-less people,And yeah, you could rightfully saY `hey, where was freedom left?", and, yes, you`re free to use anything you want, do not do it with us, we do not want cowards hiding behind an "altered-state-of-anything". We could wait until you give up that shot
Fury, untamed intelligent fury against those who deserve it! But c´mon.
Demeth

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 10th, 2003 02:21 pm (UTC)		(Link)
I would agree with empiress I'm afraid

I respect satanists as I know your nota wicked lot:
however I have to say that by associating yourselves with Satan you give yourselves a bad image. It may be very difficult for you to be accepted in the community of religions and philosophies and in general unless you explain yourselves and your belief system. And let's not forget that most people (especially fervent christians)will prejudge you.
As organized atheists you are not alone, humanists believe in the same things, if I'm not mistaken and they don't get such hassle or are not indentified with evil.After all people will judge you on your figurehead as the mythological Satan is evil associating yourself with him will provide you with prejudice.It will also attract the wrong type of people.
Even chritians who claim to understand you, still give out the wrong image to people, for example a christian auther once wrote
"Satanists do not actually claim to believe in the devil, but believe that he is a force which incourages evil,selfishness and greed" or something to that tune.
You are playing yourselves into the hands of the Christians, if Christians are biased, about their own beliefs they will certainly be about others.
I wish for the non-violent expulsion of intolerant religions, namely monotheist but the Bahai'i fauth are an example of a tolerant monotheist religion.
Your site is very impressive,helpful,superbly researched and logical in it's arguments well done!
I'll finish by saying that as I'm sure you'll agree divinity is not morality, or in English morals are more important than God whether God exists or not, even science is irrelavent next to practising good morals.