2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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2005
vexen

Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve, by Vexen Crabtree

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Adam and eve

(Anonymous)

2002-12-21 03:34 pm (UTC)

That summed up more for me than you can imagine. If only people would think about how bullshit that story is. Thanks for giving the facts.
Much appreciated.
nick.

Re: Adam and eve

(Anonymous)

2005-03-06 11:42 pm (UTC)

Have read your essay on the Adam and Eve theory. I note also your disbelief in God so therefore I assume you do not believe in the devil either. What I do not understand is why? if you don't believe, why do you write on the subject? A few comments and facts to think on!
Adam and Eve were responsible for there own actions. Having lived with God for sometime in the Garden they had no reason to doubt his word. If they understood the serpent when he told them God had lied. Then clearly they understood what lies and deceit were.

Evolution is a theory because it has never been proved. What has been established by scientist like those who claim the earth is older than 5,000 years is this. For a man to have evolved from an ape it would have taken many nuclear explosions causing mass mutation from fallout to allow this to happen even over the present scientific age of the earth.No explosions ever happened and no mutations ever found in fossils.
The missing link, the scientific one, is also missing. Men as far back as they have found skeletons have straight tail bones at base of spine. And the apes are still curved.
The others point is humans were different in the time of Adam and Eve.
Adam lived to 930. Even with todays advances men rarely live past 100 and then only the odd few. You refer to children and parents with the 'pan scenerio'. Yet Adam and Eve were adults not children. God did as any good parent would do. He warned them of the dangers. The serpent was clearly at fault for lying to them. But God on the other hand had showed his love and care by warning them not to eat from the tree of knowledge. The reason they had to leave the garden was not because of disobedience, directly.It was due to the fact the tree of life was in the garden. Now they knew bad and good they could no longer eat from the tree of life and therefore live forever. So God did not lie. From that day onward they started to die. The word of god says, 1 day and a thousand years are the same in the eyes of god. Who said the 6 days of creation were not all a thousand years each. And that every day of the life of Adam 930 years was not 930 x 1000?
The word of God is for those who seek truth. Adam brought the death to mankind. God paid the price through his son to bring them back and have eternal life. One where the serpent will not be.
By the way, Islam is nothing to do with Abraham's faith. To be of this faith one must except the fundamental truth of it. That Isaac was the chosen son of the covenant that God made with Abraham. The christians believe this too. And also that Jesus was the fulfillment of the promised Messiah. Islam except neither principles of these two faiths. So therefore cannot be associated with either faith.

Did you think these things up which you wrote, by yourself based on your own study of genesis. Or did you gleam the info from writings of others who were bias?




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adam & eve (your understanding)

(Anonymous)

2003-03-29 08:43 am (UTC)

your understanding of adam and eve is not GODS understanding. have you tried to ask GOD to help you?do you even believe in GOD? have you excepted GOD as your savior? instead of trying to find fault in GOD, why don't you try to believe. don't get caught up in the god of this world who only wants to see your destruction. GOD made it very clear not eat of the fruit or you will surley die. the serpent who we all know to be the devil tricked eve. just as he is tricking you to doubt the LORD!

Re: adam & eve (your understanding)

vexen

2003-03-29 03:16 pm (UTC)

1. I don't believe in God, it is impossible that gods exist.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rm.html

2. Why would I try to believe??? Either it's true or it isn't, trying to make it true doesn't work!

3. I'm not a Christian and don't believe in the serpent/adam/eve myths, nor do I believe that a God and a Satan are trying to win over my mind.

4. I don't "doubt" god, I live in an atheist country, was not brought up to believe in him, do not believe god exists, am incapable of "doubting god" because I don't believe in him, and, unless you provide some logical argument for the existence of god, asking me to try to believe is rather silly.

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A christian defends incest in adam and eve account

(Anonymous)

2003-08-18 01:13 pm (UTC)

In your analysis of the origin of Cains wife, you point out that incest is the only option that a Bible believing Christian realistically has. you point out two problems with this view, 1- incest leads to genetic disformities and 2- incest is not permitted by God's law. Whilst these may seem viable ammunition to shoot down the account with, on closer inspection they are not.

Firstly, if you assume that God exists and created only two people, these 2 beings would have been genetically perfect and there would be no bad traits to be inherited or magnified by intermarrying in these opening times. This leads to the second point, it was after the fall that the mechanisms of death and decay started slowly accumulating small genetic mistakes. thats why in the times that Leviticus was written God introduced the Laws against incest, to prevent any genetic problems developing. However incest was not prohibited before this time, or else, as you rightly point out the human race would have started and finished with adams family.

So to summarise the Bible's teaching on this - Adam and Eve had several male and female offspring, cain married one of his sisters or one of his sisters' children. This was not forbidden at this time since the laws that forbid incest were not given till later in the book of Leviticus. I hope this information will be useful to you, since I believe that sooner or later you will get the chance to tell God why he doesn't exist face to face, so I just want you to be well prepared.

Thankyou, John, Belfast.

Re: A christian defends incest in adam and eve account

vexen

2003-08-18 03:13 pm (UTC)

"Bad traits" are due to genetics, not the other way round. There hasn't been a time in history when people had "perfect" genes. Genes *need* to change to suit their environment.

There's no evidence that genes deteriote due to the existence of death - there is plenty of existence that death has always existed since before humans did. Given that death and genes have always existed before "the fall", it seems that it's strange to assume that Humans' genes have a different history to other species. The mechanics of genetics (there isn't possibility of what "perfect" genes might be - genes are just genes) have been operating, taking into account that death has always existed as long as life, before and after mankind appeared in history - this alone makes a mockery of the idea that there was once a time without death, but doubly makes a mockery that "death" and "the fall" are related, and that they both somehow affected the way our genes are transmitted!

Makes Sense

(Anonymous)

2003-09-03 01:18 am (UTC)

I am not an educated woman, but I do consider myself 'bright'. What yo have written about Adam and Eve, to me, makes sense. However, as a believer in God and Christ, my faith lies in my heart, not in a book that really should not be taken too literaly since it has been translated from its original text. There are somethings in this world we are never really to understand. We just need to believe. That alone might be a test.

Hi... as an outsider, I have one problem... all the religions are equally implausible. I can't bring myself to "pick" a religion, and discard all the others. On what grounds could I discard all the other religions that wouldn't also be grounds for discarding the one that I pick?

My faith, my heart, tells me that I should persue love, compassion and empathy... and to cultivate these things in other people. But, there is no "religion" inherent in those things. If I had to pick the religion with the most compassion, I would pick Buddhism. If my metric was love, the religion would be New Age and with empathy, the religion would be the Bahai' Faith.

Perhaps the test is: To do what is right. No matter what religion you pick; that's the test. If there was a God and it was judging us by freely made moral choices, thankfully, an all-loving god would not judge us by our knowledge of religion but by the choices we make. Hopefully, if god is loving, it doesn't matter which religion or secular philosophy I accept, if any.

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from Alice, a 15 yrs old Christian girl :)

(Anonymous)

2003-10-21 07:48 am (UTC)

dear...friends :)

i like your ideas about God although I don't know anything about this subject...I don't know who to believe in, and perhaps I should study myself a little, because my parents are Christians and so am I as they keep telling me, but why? i don't believe in God as much as my parents or friends. sometimes i think i don't believe in God at all...just because i dont see Him...

maybe you shouldn't write on your site that God isn't a good parent, because this might be only your opinion, and you might have problems. You can't say this kind of stuff about the spirit who is supposed that have created you, just because it is not...nice perhaps

Re: from Alice, a 15 yrs old Christian girl :)

(Anonymous)

2005-11-06 01:11 am (UTC)

[[dear...friends :)

i like your ideas about God although I don't know anything about this subject...I don't know who to believe in, and perhaps I should study myself a little, because my parents are Christians and so am I as they keep telling me, but why? i don't believe in God as much as my parents or friends. sometimes i think i don't believe in God at all...just because i dont see Him...

maybe you shouldn't write on your site that God isn't a good parent, because this might be only your opinion, and you might have problems. You can't say this kind of stuff about the spirit who is supposed that have created you, just because it is not...nice perhaps]]



Hi Alice,

You seem like a nice person, so I'm going to give it to you straight.

This is the abbreviated no crap version of Christianity in the bible.

'god' the father ('GTF') told Jesus that he needs to face being tortured and crucified or he (GTF) will send everyone on the planet earth to burn in hell for not passing a test that is impossible to pass (according to Paul, the originator or Pauline Christianity and the grandfather of your churches beliefs). This impossible to pass test is being sinless because we are born with original sin. So, you failed the test soon as you were born and 'GTF' says that because of this, you deserve to be sent to hell and burn.

Jesus, a good guy, didn't want to die, so he begged 'GTF' at least three times in the book of Mark to "take this cup from me". 'GTF' callously ignored him.

Jesus, being the good guy that he is, took the bullet for you so to speak because he responded to 'GTF's' terrorist threat by being a stand up guy.

Now, evil 'GTF' tell each Christian to say that making Jesus respond to this terrorist threat is "good" and "mercy" or he will send you to hell to burn.

'GTF' tells you to use the blood of the good and innocent man named Jesus to buy your way out of hell.


You see, 'GTF' is pissed at you for something you can't change. Being guilty of original sin is like being "guilty" of breathing, so 'GTF' is shooting at you and telling Jesus "you can jump in the way if you want, but I'm shooting anyway".

Jesus took the bullet for you and makes Jesus a good guy, BUT what does this make 'god' the father?

Sorry hun, but it makes 'god' the father evil. I didn't make the rules, I just report them.


The Vampire
LOGOS

Just a thought

(Anonymous)

2003-10-30 09:46 am (UTC)

Upon reading many of the posts contained here I have come to these conclusions:
1. God commanded Adam and Eve to go and multiply their offspring and populate the Earth (Genesis 1:28 and again to Noah in Genesis 9:1). Because this was a direct command from God, He would have made it possible to complete. Why would an all-knowing perfect God command His people to do something that they could physically not do? I mean really, if we are to assume that God created the entire complexity of the universe, can we not accept that He is powerful/ wise enough to work it out and allow for Adam and Eve to multiply the Earth. One common mistake that we make when studying Scripture is that we put natural characteristics on a supernatural God.

2. God does not forbid incest until He reveals His law to His people (Leviticus 18:6-18, 20:11-12, 17, 19-21; Deuteronomy 22:30, 27:20-23; Ezekiel 22:11; 1 Corinthians 5:1). These events come later in the biblical timeline. The bible records other incidents of incest (Genesis 19:30-38) but never does it condone such acts after the law was given. In many cases sins are not judged in the bible, they are reported.

3. Different people groups were present after the Fall thus allowing for a wider variety of mate choices. Genesis chapter 6 talks of two such groups that multiplied on the earth: the sons of God and the Nephilim. Upon doing an original Hebrew text word study of these two words, one would find the following:
The Sons of God- thought to be the fallen angels that were ousted from heaven but were with God during creation. Ref (Job 1:6-7, Job 38:1-7).
Nephilim- refers to a race of giants, possibly nine or ten feet tall. The same Hebrew term was used to name people of similar appearance in Numbers 13:33 and I Samuel 17.

Upon researching topics such as these, I stand firm to the fact that God has given us sufficient knowledge, not all encompassing knowledge in the area of creation though the Bible. Science’s attempts to explain the origin of life and where/ how the world was created have come up short time and time again. The Big Bang and Evolution do not explain what started the universe, or where the world came from. All evidence points to a creator. There is a design; there must be a designer. What is more believable, that the world was created by God, or that the world was created by accident?

After accepting the fact that there must be a supernatural beginning and Creator of the universe and our world, one must invariably search in the world to see what this Creator has made known to His creation. A study of all the major world religions will lead you to the fact that they all do NOT say the same thing. Therefore, one must rise above any pre-conceptions and honestly research all world theologies to find which one is the truth.

In my own research I have found that no other religion can even come close to the historical and archeological accuracy of the Christian Bible. No other religion can offer its true followers such authentic peace and guidance. And in no other religion will you find such a radical and supernatural change within its real converts. In my own life, the proof in the pudding is the inner change that took place within me once I accepted Christ as my savior.

In summary:
1. There is a God
2. He gave us his Word (the Bible) and in over 2000 years it has not be proven wrong.
3. The Bible says that the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus as your Savior (John 14:6 among many other verses).

But don’t take my word on it…keep searching. You will eventually come back to the truth.

Sincerely,
Lucas Waschkowski
lucashugo7@earthlink.net

With Genesis you have to imagine that it has been translated many times and we no longer have the original scripts. So straight away we have difficulties in taking the bible literaly.

With Adam and Eve plus the Serpent, who says that the Serpent was the 'devil'. In Genesis there is no direct mention of the devil, Christian church merely 'assumes' that it was. If you can answer the question of exactly who or what was the Serpent then we are well on our way to understand the 'gnostic' perspective of Adam and Eve.

Happy Questing.

Question:

(Anonymous)

2003-11-21 01:53 pm (UTC)

Yeah, I was wondering a couple of things...

First off, are you serious?
And secondly, what do you have against science?
I mean, come on. 15,000 million years a go a big boom?
No one knows where the matter came from? pre- life? Nothing just magically pops up out of now where and evolves into what we see today? And apparently stopped evolving. You think a universe that rotates at a lvel of accuracy YOU CAN SET YOUR WATCH on happen by your little cosmic burp?
MAN YOU TALK ABOUT FAITH.
Email me for actual science if you wish.

(You didn't give your email address... duh...)

Well, you believe God, a complex being with emotions, willpower, etc, needs no reason for it's existence... AND you believe that God created everything from nothing. You believe in TWO impossible events.

I only believe in ONE unlikely event, that the laws of the universe (that caused the big bang) exist with a reason.

Compare the assumptions of atheists and theists... you'll find that theists make more illogical assumptions than theists:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/assumptions.html

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my email

(Anonymous)

2003-11-21 01:54 pm (UTC)

kingjamesonly2001@yahoo.com

Adam and Eve...and who my God really is

(Anonymous)

2004-02-17 10:11 pm (UTC)

If I wrote all that I thought on this matter I would be typing for hours so I will just choose a few things to quickly question you about...
You state that 'Adam and Eve's sons must have slept with their own mother', unfortunatly nobody exsited while God was creating the world so Im not quite sure how you are certain that Eve was the only women that exsisted. The first book of Genesis could be taken literally or not, but the way I see it is that God only gave us the facts we needed to know. He didn't write a detailed word for word despcription about how the world was created! There could have been other family, other women in the world at this time. THere are so many possiblities! God clearly states that incest is wrong in the Bible, why would He contridict himself?
One other more important fact, you obvioulsy dont know my God and Savoir personally because you wouldn't call Him a bad parent! Have you ever met a parent with uncondional love? A love that stays the same no matter what you do or how bad you mess up? Have you ever met a parent that knows absoultly everything about you and still loves you anyway? You see, God created me, I am His child and yet everyday i turn away from HIm, I act ashamed of HIm, I disobey HIm and I hate him, I treat him like dirt at yet, He still loves me. I searched for that kind of love high and low and have never found it but with God I never even have to search, its just there! Christianity isn't a religion, it is a faith. And with that faith, facts begin to fall in too place or maybe even just not matter as much. The only reason you cannot understand because your eyes are still closed to Gods love for you.

listen and read carefully (Anonymous) Expand

Perception & Religion

(Anonymous)

2004-02-18 06:17 am (UTC)

To those on both sides of the arguments please read the following.

The world is magnificent. Of all the rocks floating about in space it is by far the most beautiful and diverse. It is so incomprehensibly diverse in fact that it could be argued by some that this amazing planet could not have come about by chance. Be that as it may. It did. Evolution, Cause and Effect. Action and reaction. These are the things which made our wonderful planet and all things on it. Weather you believe it was started by an all powerful being or chemicals smashing together in primordial soup in an ever expanding milt verse. You could discuss religion and philosophy until your blue in the face but you brain is not sophisticated enough to conceive any alternative to that which you can see and feel and hear. Even the religious fanatics out there believe that the afterlife will be a wonderful version of their current reality. Not so. We look the way we look because so far this is the best form to survive on our planet. We are as tall as we are for a reason and we communicate the way we do for a reason. We cannot comprehend the concept of nothing so for many the idea of an afterlife helps to find a description for something which perceptually has none. Even blackness is something. When you are in deep sleep can you remember what went on. Can you remember being born? History helps you understand what went before but you cannot put the past into a context where you are not observing, you are simply not there. The debate will continue forever. Surely it is more important to live your life knowing that you will only have about 70 summers. 70 winters and 70 birthdays. Live your life for you and for your loved ones. Happiness and giving breeds more of the same. Stop wasting it arguing about something which really does not matter.

A Friend

Re: Perception & Religion

(Anonymous)

2004-03-27 01:03 am (UTC)

WHAT IF there IS anafterlife? then what?

are you so sure there isn't one? if you are so sure, then where is your evidence of such a belief?

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Interesting Ideas

(Anonymous)

2004-02-19 03:24 am (UTC)

I enoyed reading you ideas however just to add a couple of facts to maybe enhance your thinking. You might want to read past the first part of Adam and Eves story and find out about the child they had in Eves late age. does this have anything to do with evolution.

Re: Interesting Ideas

vexen

2004-09-15 09:10 am (UTC)

No, it is not possible to evolve an entire species from a single pair of parents, the mutations and limited genetic stock would made the species infertile very quickly.

your Coment 'Adam and Eve did not know of good and evil

(Anonymous)

2004-03-16 06:18 am (UTC)

Your Comment
"Adam and Eve did not know of good and evil. They were innocent. They did not know deceit, anger, lust or evil. The serpent lied to them. They would have known that the serpent's intents were not good. They couldn't have known, so they believed what the serpent said. This isn't Adam and Eve's fault, but ask yourself if God knew that they would have believed the serpent, why did God not stop the serpent? God could have picked it up himself and thrown it out of the Garden of Eve. If impurity or non-innocence are ground for God throwing you out of the Garden of Eden, then God should have thrown the serpent out. Only two conclusions are possible:"

If Adam was so innocent then how could God have told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree, they would not have understood the caution by God! Wouldn't God know it in the first place that Adam could not understand because of his innocence?
I think you are presupposing innocence as ignorance. Adam was innocent in the sense that there was nothing to make him guilty before the Fall

Re: your Coment 'Adam and Eve did not know of good and evil

(Anonymous)

2004-07-13 09:00 pm (UTC)

God did not tamper with the serpent because God gave us one of the best gifts of all, free will, adam knew and was absolutely positive that he was not supposed to eat the fruit because God (or rather Jesus) told him face to face, but eve was told by Adam and was beguiled by the serpents clever use of words

Hello

(Anonymous)

2004-06-03 08:01 pm (UTC)

God at one time to human kind was secret; he wanted his secret to be known for he is the giver of splendor and life. God new before he created Adam and Eve that they were going to fall, basically it was in his plan so he could create other humans as well to serve him and to make his secret known of him so he may give to his creations what they new not: Paradise and hell, love and anger etc… as a test for man for out of his splendor he will give to man what no other creation will receive as long as they obey his will but his justice must prevail just as it does in our own everyday lives, however their is no contradictions with God. He has forbidden oppression for himself, therefore for any of his creations as well. Thus man has freewill to choose either for good or ill. For instance when he created the sun and moon he asked them do they submit and they said yes to the creator of all worlds. Everything has its own energy force or vibration when we break it down to the atomic level even inanimate objects as well as human and animal kind have its own energy and sound waves in other words everything on and including the earth and space is nothing more than pure energy that vibrates, however there needs to be a catalyst that gives this energy shape and form not to mention emotions and feelings and above all innocence. If you think about the over all balance of earth and it creations you will find that humankind serves no real relevancy to the balance of earth and nature itself. If we were to take away just one facet of the balance, lets say plant life all things would cease to exist and be plummeted in chaos you can say the same with the animal life, however if you where to take away man from the equation the earth would still be in balance. You see we are subservient to the subspecies it’s not the other way around. With out them and the elements we would cease to exist. So ask yourself what true purpose does humankind serve? Some indulge in sex, fun, laughter, self gain and importance. These are illusions that we are to be judged upon for these aspects that most men and women practice serve no truth to the over all existence and balance of humankind within in its own sphere and God’s over justice, in other words these actions of man causes chaos. You will see this in everyday life, just turn on the TV. or read the newspaper. Are true purpose is to worship God and follow his will for these actions will be either for us or against us on the Day of Judgment. As per your website when the mother forbade the child to eat the cookies and the older son said that there mother would not harm them but when they did eat the cookies and their mother found out she scolded them and tossed them out of the house. A cookie and wisdom that makes man think and desire his own consequence is not the same. Especially when we break the laws of innocents that keeps us pure. Why do we hold children so dear? It is because of there innocence. It would be easier for you to enact and feel strong emotion when an innocent child is being harmed rather than a grown adult. Why? So in true essence God was very merciful, however man chooses his own enactments. Therefore to creation God is no longer a mystery to be denied but pondered.

"there needs to be a catalyst that gives this energy shape and form"

I think it is more likely that this uncaused force is the inanimate and logical laws of the universe... not a conscious god. I do not why you assume that this "catalyst" is conscious, that it cares, that it is alive... when the simpler assumptions are probably more correct. There is no god.

To compare assumptions that atheists and theists make about original causes, try:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/faith.html
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/assumptions.html

Re: Hello (Anonymous) Expand

your "no free will theory"

(Anonymous)

2004-07-14 09:54 pm (UTC)

imagine that i am God and i was watching you. you are going to watch a movie. i know in advance that if you watch a comedy, you will laugh a lot. you will laugh so hard that you will cry right at the dramatic part and the guys will think you are a sissy and it will ruin your reputation. i don't want you to watch the comedy but it's your decision. i also know what will happen if you watch a scary movie or a sad movie, but that does not make you predestined. now vexen, the god of the christian denomination knows the consequence of every action you make, but he is not bound by destiny. of course he wants you to make the right decision but he does not make you. he always makes the good decision not because he has to but because he wants good to come to us and he makes the decision that brings the most good to us. but beware that when he comes back to share his wrath there will be virtually no good for sinners so be aware of hard times ahead

Re: your "no free will theory"

vexen

2004-07-26 12:05 pm (UTC)

Well, if God had set up the events (which are out of my control) leading up to the factors that affect what choice I make (my choices are based on my experience and life), then God is causing my choice. If there is a God, that is how it is. God, by a cascade of cause-and-affect, has already set everyone's choices in stone.

If there is a God, there is no free will and God is indirectly responsible for every choice.

You actually think there isn't a God?

(Anonymous)

2004-09-15 06:26 am (UTC)

YOU ACTUALLY THINK THERE IS NOT A GOD? WELL IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE THAT THERE IS AND I AM A CHRISTIAN AND I BELIEVE EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE

Re: You actually think there isn't a God?

vexen

2004-09-15 09:08 am (UTC)

There were many Christians in the first few centuries before the Bible existed. Why do you think it is necessary to believe in the Bible to be a Christian?

And... WHY are you a Christian? WHY do you believe the Bible at all?

The Bible, and Christianity, are both made up by Human beings.

After having read your arguments I find them to be well thought out and logical. I am amazed by some of the comments I am reading in response to your arguments. The inconsistencies and absurdities of their arguments makes me hope that they are the exceptions and not really true examples for the way most people thnk. A true believer will grasp at straws and will force themselves to believe no matter what the evidence indicates. If God created everything then he created evil but God is perfect so that is impossible. By doing a bunch of mental gymnastics and fuzzy thinking exercises, believers can overcome logic and reason and evidence. There are some who still believe the earth is flat and that it is the center of the Universe with the Universe revolving around it. It is useless to address these people because they have been so indoctrinated from birth with their parents beliefs that they are not reachable. They don't realize that if they were born into another religion and indoctrinated there that they would be just as adament in their beliefs and dogma. I would recommend a great book about Biblical Religion. It is "Biblical Religion" The Great Lie. Written by Mikael Kalopoulis. Probably the most eye opening book I have ever read. It is available at Amazon.com The research is excellent, and once you read it you will know the secret behind Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I think even you will be amazed, and religion will lose its hold over your life forever if it has any.

the how and the why

(Anonymous)

2004-11-02 02:35 am (UTC)

In my career as a scientist I am frequently exploring and pondering the 'how' of this universe. However I am constantly surprised at the lack of thought around me regarding the more important question of the 'why'? To believe that our existance is both meaningless and to no purpose seems illogical. To deny the existance of a starting point, let's call this God, and be content in the knowledge that your very essence will one day be extinguished forever I find ignorant. Everyone is religious... religion is simply the belief system that you hold. An atheist is as religious as a Christian, but they certainly have different beliefs. And all people struggle with pain, fear and anger, so don't dismiss a 'religion' based on what you may percieve those people as doing. Stop fighting about which religion is 'right' and start looking at the evidence. And as for the history of the earth, don't absorb propaganda. Evolutionary theory is as 'flawed' as some believe the genesis account of creation is. But at the end of the day, there will exist an absolute truth, and I recommend starting with the 6,000 years of scripture found in the bible where God seeks out man, not the other way around. Then use the brain God gave you, take the time out of your so very important day to day activities to think a little deeper on the 'why'. It's not all about sin, obedience, and fear... it's about living your life to the full as you were intended to do.

After reading a number of the comments, I couldn't help but feel that I should contribute my two cents worth. It took me 6 years to reconcile creationsim and evolution to myself. Why did I bother with something so seemingly contradictory? Well, as long as I let my own intelligence, logic and supposed "understanding" of the world rule my life I had nothing but fun. I did what I wanted with whomever I wanted whenever I wanted. I went where I pleased, said what I liked and ultimately realized that I was unhappy. This seems to be a frequent phenomenon amongst so-called "born again" Christians. I don't claim to be anything of the sort.
By just sitting down and reading the Bible and not letting some idiot preacher try to fill me in, it became pretty obvious early on that the Bible was not intended to answer every question of our origins. Like one of the earlier comments, I also do not see where anyone can take the Bible literally, or expect it to account for abberations and anomalies in evolution.
Some apocryphal scruptures seemed to be in complete agreement with the big bang theory.
It also does not seem impossible that limited and isolated human populations, so long as there is one viable member of each sex, could not manage to repopulate the earth after any world-wide catastrophic event. I suppose limited and isolated can infer just one couple. As some commentors have pointed out, incest probably did not exist when populations were so small. Try looking at things like this:
From a non-religious point of view, if you're the last man on earth, and there's only one woman, there's no one around to be judgemental. So what if you break every taboo that existed when people did. In order to repopulate the planet, you will have to make some serious adjustments to having sex either with your sister or if female dies in childbirth having a girl, it's going to be your daughter you have to proliferate with. Or humanity is finished. Let's not even go anywhere near the moral or ethical aspect of what I just suggested. Personally, I would not want to be in the position of having to have sex with any relatives.
From a religious point of view, however, it is quite easy to reconcile the Bible with Science. There is plenty of room in the Bible for a variety of errors. Angels could be space men, fire from heaven could be meteorites and Jesus could have easily been married with a family living in France for all we know. Even the dinosaurs; the room in the Bible to explain dinosaurs is like a big room with a locked door. If God wanted us to know everything, He'd probably visit regularly and have classes. But I think he laughs his ass off all day. He's probably thinking,"wow, it's only taken them 500,000 years to figure out evolution" and "why in the world do they care about dinosaurs?"
Easy answers: we're curious, we're human, and we aren't stupid enough to believe some angelic personage "created" two full grown ppl, popped them into a garden, and directs everything with a theological remote control. I think God probably left out plenty when His boys (and a few girls or so) wrote the Bible so that all the jerk offs of this world would refute it because it's based more on faith than hard facts. That's fine with Him, just ask Him some time. Having true faith can turn your life around, you hear it all the time and it happened to me too. I just had to stop believing in the absolutes of the theories.
And by the way, scientific models of mt-DNA support TWO theories of semi-global migration and you might be interested in checking it out...one theory is that we came out of Africa (perhaps repeatedly) and replaced the existing ppls. Or, that smaller isolated groups evolved into more locally distinct populations. New evidence supports a combination of theories, both of which include inter-species breeding.
Scientific enough? I could go on all day...I've been at this so long. In fact, if you're still not convinced, I wouldn't be surprised. It took more than one day for me to get it too.

Which human origin do you buy? That we all came out of Africa, or that we dispersed from isolated groups... starting somewhere in the middle east? just curious.

Misguided search

(Anonymous)

2004-11-29 09:03 pm (UTC)

For someone that does not believe in a God you have certainly put a lot of thought into this story!! Also is interesting to note how your veiws are very one sided. How can you even expect to understand what a GOD would do or create or see fit or not fit to do. Are you a god also? do you have the same power? can you expect the same respect? of course not, you are a mere mortal just like every one else.

The reason God created a human race was so that he could be close to something, of course as a human being, all we want to do is please ourselves, which is what both Adam and Eve did ... that was the Sin, that they disobeyed God.

Fortunately God IS a God of love and wants every oen to know Him, but he has given the choice to us, and the consequences to us just as he did to Adam and Eve. There is only one way to know God, and that is through Jesus Christ. Just accepting Him into you heart won't do the trick though, you have to be obedient to His words. Which is why Jesus Christ after he died and rose again, gave us the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:1-4, 38-39] so we could have a belief and faith in Him.

If you are trying to do a search to displace the story of Adam and Eve, then you should also do a search to displace the rest of the Bible, in which you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO. You can carry on choosing ignore truth, but the consequences are clear. Believe them or not, that is your choice.

Some of your points may be valid one, especially with our human brain, but it doesn't get rid of the fact that God does exist, along with the devil, Jesus Christ and the fact that Jesus will return one day again to this earth to call to Him those that have been OBEDIENT.

regards,
Peter.

peternankivell@hotmail.com

Adam and eve unbelievable

(Anonymous)

2004-12-03 05:38 pm (UTC)

I think mankind cannot live in a vacuum re our origins etc and somewhere someone drew up the adam and eve story to keep people in line and get on with their lives without existential angst which must have existed from early days. I was raised a catholic but drifted away from all this stuff yet it has long tormented me. The imprinting of religion is extremely powerful and hard to shake. Yet eventually it can happen. If the bible is the literal truth then any untruth makes it unravel. If you believe in the bible you must follow your religion or preachers to the end and I can respect that. If you are like me, who cannot believe adam and eve, whether for incest arguments, where did other people come from etc, then the whole bible unravels, there is no original sin, there is no case for a messiah and therefore Jesus was just another brilliant man of his era. I cannot argue against the existence of God but I do not believe he has ever spoken to mankind, whatever his image is, is the invention of authors who have tried to explain things. I think people who have missed the religion boat are tormented because the rest of society believes in some religious tradition. But just to go along with society in order to fit in has gradually become less of a necessary option for us non-religious types. You can believe in any religion you want as long as it is one of the big 5 or whatever. To fall outside is a sin, not to God but to society. Merry christmas all, even if you don't buy the story, the feeling is still a good one. Frank/toronto

Re: Adam and eve unbelievable

(Anonymous)

2005-01-26 12:27 am (UTC)

If I were you, I would have left the catholic religion as well. As far as I can tell, they have a very faulty interpretation of the Bible... plus they pretty much make God out to be a monster. Question, if you believe in God, do you believe in an afterlife?

why call your self atheists

(Anonymous)

2004-12-05 01:56 am (UTC)

atheists belive in nothing! they do not belive in god/devi.they do not belive in good/evil. they belive in nothing and satanist do belive in something therefore they cannot be atheists!

Re: why call your self atheists

vexen

2004-12-17 09:57 pm (UTC)

An atheist believes in hundreds of things. For example, I am an atheist. I believe in love, kindness, compassion, community, intelligence, study, hard work, patience, forgiveness, steadfastness, self development. I believe in truth, the search for truth.

"Atheist" means "not a belief in god". That is all it means. Theist means "belief in God". Theist religions include the Abrahamic religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam, and many other religions.

Atheist religions include Buddhism, Scientology, Satanism, etc, as listed on http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/atheism.html

Some American Christians say that "atheist" means "not believing" in all the things you listed, but they're wrong, the term for that is "nihilism", which IS a despairing belief in nothing.

Gods wraith

(Anonymous)

2004-12-14 07:23 pm (UTC)

Forgive my ignorence if i show any.

Would i be correct in saying that God displays wraith? I massivly confused here, how can God wraith? God sinning? There's so many contradictions in relgion.

In addition it annoys me when people disregard evolution on the basis that its a theory. Yes it is a theory, but as far as scientists are concerned its taken as true because its got so much evidence supporting it. Assumptions are made every day in life, and the majority of technology in the world is designed on the basis of mathematics which have so many assumptions you would not belive. 'Its a lot easier to find the ideal solution to the approximate problem than it is to find the approximate solution to the ideal problem' my old maths teacher used to say.

Sorry for going off on one, btw vixens a quality name!

Re: Gods wraith

(Anonymous)

2004-12-14 07:24 pm (UTC)

Sorry i meant vexen

ADAM & EVE

(Anonymous)

2005-01-04 01:06 am (UTC)

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The law of incest only came into view after the flood.
Sin is lawlesness, there was no law of incest at the time of Adam.
So what they did was not a sin.
you need to know facts not the theories you come up with.


Well I don't believe in absolute morals either, so we're not entirely disagreed that it's silly to say gods/the bibles morals are never changing.... morals change over time... once you've accepted that, like you and me, the world is made a better place.

Re: ADAM & EVE (Anonymous) Expand

Adam and Eve

(Anonymous)

2005-01-31 04:47 am (UTC)

Read your article on Adam and Eve and was amused. I am not a religionist in the true sense but I am an Antiquities Scientist. From a humanistic point of view you brought up some very good points, however, I can't help comment on several things. 1. There are two separate creation stories in the Book of Genesis. The first creation story goes from Gen. 1:1-2:3. In that story it is the Elohiym (pronounced Eloheem and not Elohim) and is a plural word. When they create their Adams (more than one) it reads: And let US make man in OUR own image and after OUR own likeness . . . and let THEM (more than one). In Genesis two we read: the Lord (YHVH) of Eden, by himself, with no help from any of the other gods or deities, he formed one Adawmn from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and that man, became a living soul. 2. I must correct you on the subject of incest. In ancient times it was common to marry a sister, especially a half sister, as Abraham and Sarah were. According to all medical journals, there is no health hazard of any kind in this . . . unless there is defective genes that already exist. If neither the brother or the sister, wife, mother, etc. have defective genes, no deformed children will result. For that is what happend to the whole nation of most of us. Jacob had twelve sons and many daughters. They all interbred among themselves, as do the Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Greeks, etc. We all do this.

Anyway, you are right, there should be no punishment for me, from something that Adam did.

hehe
Jerry

There are no words! Well maybe a few.

(Anonymous)

2005-03-04 10:40 pm (UTC)

I have not even completed reading your sorry excuse for a fact-based essay and I can't wait to blow you out of the water. Aside from the enormous amount of misspelled words, comma splices, incorrectly used words, and generally bad grammar, the basis for some of your conclusions is misinterpreted and half-educated. Have you read the whole Bible. I sure hope you have to be making these types of conclusions. If you really have though, maybe you didn't get it the first time. I can not even begin to pick through your essay right now because I am at work, and I would not be able to get all of my thoughts together. I will write back though and we'll talk about this some more. To me you seem like a boy who was raised in a Christian home but just found out that living an authentic Christian life was just a little bit too much work for you. It's a whole lot easier to read and learn all about Christianity and then invalidate all of it so you can stop thinking about it isn't it? Keep on making excuses. Can you explain why you can't find one thing that makes you feel happy all the time? I imagine that you have not witnessed the power of God and realized it. It really is amazing. I am quite the critical thinker myself, and I appreciate your attempt at a different point of view (however failed). Just because you have a fresh and new radical idea that you think you can back up by a few misguided theories, you shouldn't share it with the entire world wide web until you can hold it up in court with facts and references for every claim you make.

Re: There are no words! Well maybe a few.

vexen

2005-03-08 06:58 pm (UTC)

How about your own missed question marks and English mistakes?

I've been considering paying an editor to sort out my problems in this area across my sites. The main problem is that I have about five years of essays and pages, many of them quite large, and I don't have the time to go through them all and write them properly, although much new material is of a higher grade of English (once I realized people were actually reading what I was writing!).

Anyway, back to the more important issues... if you disagree with some of the facts or threads of argument in the essay, please start by pointing out one such item. It's more useful to me and others than is generic complaining.

Kudos!!

(Anonymous)

2005-04-13 08:34 pm (UTC)

I want to congratulate you for rekindling the fire in my heart to reach my fellow man with the TRUTH. If I were to believe the comments (for they are not fact) on your website I would be so useless. I do not want to sound condescending (as you do throughout your comments)nor do I want to "convert" you to my way of thinking. I would like to point out a few of my core beliefs and values. 1. GOD created the heavens and the earth. If He did not then how else could the magnigicent human body function and come into existence. I am not a mutation of a monkey. I was created in a specific image for a specific purpose on this earth. Life would be much easier if I knew what that purpose was, but the end result is that I am to glorify God through my actions. I do not have anything but what He has seen fit to give me. I work hard and raise a family, but they will die and so will I. By glorifying Him and accepting the sacrifice of His son on the cross as punishment for my sins, I am allowed to live with Him in eternity. 2. Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. God gave them everything they could ever need or want at that time. Can you imagine never having to work, but to merely walk to the nearest plant and eat whatever you like without having to cultivate it, prune it, purchase it or water it? They truly had their own "Garden of Eden". God gave them detailed instructions regarding what they could and could not do. Even children understand consequences if you explain them. When he said not to eat from the tree, DON"T EAT FROM THE TREE!!!!!! His instructions were not unconditional. He told them "You will die if you eat from this tree". Is that unclear? They CHOSE to disobey the command knowing full well what the consequences were. From your comments it seems that you do not hold yourself or anyone else responsible for their own behavior. Do you accept the idea that if you are drunk and kill someone you should not be prosecuted to the fullest extent because you were not in control of your behavior? If so, shame on you. The person who was drunk chose to drink and made the conscious decision to alter their mental state. It was their fault and only theirs. I do not have the time to refute many of the statements you made because it won't make any differnec anyway. You have to desire to seek the truth before you can find it. You have shut the door on truth and walked away. Your decisions and thoughts are your own and that is a gift that GOD gave you and you alone. The way you respond in a situation. The way you think, feel and act are your alone to control. Your environment or situation may be difficult, but God gave us "free will". He is not going to interfere because he gave us everything we needed in the beginning and we still chose to follow our selfish desires for power. If you should ever find yourself in a place where you do not feel you could fall into a deeper despair, put your atheistic views aside and simply open yourself to the possibility. If you ask God to speak to you he will. It is better than drugs! You will experience a peace and companionship like no other. I pray fervently that you never get to a place so low, but I also pray that you will some day surrender your selfishness and pride to see that we were created in His image and then we threw the stone into the pool. Someday He will come back and the reflection will be clear again.

"The Fall" is about absolute worship of power absolutely

vampire_logos

2005-06-13 02:26 pm (UTC)



1. Myth origin-
“The Fall”, or as I euphemistically call it, the “Eden is a gilded cage” story, is different than the mythological tale probably started out to be, and the difference, I suspect, is important.

The serpent is a mythological archetype used in many mythologies in the “old world” called “the false messenger”. The false messenger is typically a serpent and usually tells someone who will soon be in the presence of the ‘gods’ to not partake of the food offered because it will be poisoned. It turns out that the food is manna or the equivalent which would have given the person immortality. The “false messenger” is a liar (and the motivation almost always remains unexplained).

The Eden story is different because the “tree of life” plays an almost trivial part of the story. It serves as an afterthought as a reason ‘god’ kicked A & E out of the garden.

2. In the ‘Eden is a gilded cage’ story, THE SERPENT TOLD THE TRUTH AND ‘GOD’ LIED.

This is significant.

(a break down of the KJV scripture along with the Hebrew and my own analysis for those interested at...
http://www.thailoversdomain.com/how_not_be_a_christian5.html ).


3. When “the woman” (that no one had bothered to give a name to yet) talked to the serpent and the serpent told the woman something different than ‘god’ told her, she was faced with figuring out WHO WAS IN FACT LYING TO HER. She made up her own mind and tried the fruit. THIS was the “original sin” not the effect of magic fruit. ‘god’ created a race of dumb animals to serve him. It was this expression of free will that is evil in ‘god’-speak. Free will is what allows us to deviate from complete capitulation to the demands of master, yada-yada. Later, Eve blamed the serpent for “beguiling” her, but this was before ‘god’ tipped is hand and she still thought that she was about to die. What was his hand?

GOD WAS THE LIAR, NOT THE SERPENT!!

They didn’t die that day AND they were like “US”, knowing good and evil, i.e. capable of moral choice. A choice that biblical ‘god’ ostensibly never intended us to have.

Christian apologists LOVE to lie about this story, saying that they “suffered spiritual death” and all of that sort of clap-trap. Rubbish.

HERE IS THE MORAL OF THE STORY.


It is not about “fairness” or “justice” or even good and evil.

IT IS ABOUT WORSHIPING ABSOLUTE POWER ABSOLUTELY, even if this absolute power seeks to enslave you, destroy you, lie to you, or even deny to you any value other than the worshiping of it, the absolute power itself.

This is THE “morality” tale of Judeo/Christianity and is appropriate.

It appropriately involves the tenants of Judeo/Christianity.

1. Fear of authority/power
2. Ignorance is preferable to knowledge that can be scary.
3. Going against ‘god’ is always “evil”, even if ‘god’ is lying to you, etc.
4. Telling the truth when it is unfavorable to ‘god’ will be punished.
5. Security in ignorance is ‘good’ and freedom of thought and action is frightening and undesirable to those who seek to control you.
6. Judeo/Christianity is upside down and anti-moral.

Morality requires moral choice. Moral choice is only possible if one knows good and evil. The idea that Adam and Eve’s acquisition of the ability to be moral creature is itself immoral is actually an evil lie. Judeo/Christianity is evil. It’s evil because its purposely anti-value and purposely anti-productive life.


The Vampire
LOGOS

Re: "The Fall" is about absolute worship of power absolutely

(Anonymous)

2005-10-26 05:26 am (UTC)

I have much to say that would refute your claims, but instead I will simply ask a question. If you are correct, and the story of Adam and Eve is all mythological nonsense since there is no God (I'm assuming you don't believe in God), then who is to say that your statement about Judeo/Christianity being evil and anti-moral is true? What authority or "higher moral standard" allows you to make such a claim? For surely if there is no God, your existence is not pre-purposed, and you are just an accident. How can the argument of an accident hold any value? Any claim made by an accident is just another accident anyway.
If you really think about it, under this godless worldview, life as we know it falls apart. Nothing we do ultimately matters. Morality, good, and evil are man-made illusions. It does not matter if you live a productive and good life or a life of evil (who's to say what a good life should look like anyway). Anything you have ever done or will ever do was or will be entirely worthless and meaningless. Talk about an anti-moral belief system. Of course something inside you tells you that such a reality isn’t possible. It is the same thing God has placed in every man, and no matter how much you try to disprove or deny the truth, this part of you will always know something’s wrong. You have a choice to believe whatever you want to believe. But remember, no matter how sincerely you hold a materialistic/evolutionary world-view, it does not change the truth. Truth is not affected by beliefs. It is what it is. If you are curious about real evidence of origins, do yourself a favor and check out answersingenesis.org. Decide for yourself which arguments make the most sense. Don't let biased atheist "scientists" decide your beliefs for you.

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