From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 24th, 2003 04:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Logical on flaws of Christian belief

Very good article.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 1st, 2004 04:35 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Knowing God

The way to know God before Christ's incarnation(God the Son becoming man)was through the law of the old testament, in keeping it's strict laws was the way to please God and to know Him.Those who worshiped and kept the law of the one true God would be saved. However there are verses in the bible that say that people will be judged according to the light they have recieved. So those who had never heard of God were judged differently. Everyone has a conscience and everyone knows right from wrong and so I believe they would have been judged according to that. Now, A.D., however, most people have heard of Jesus and so are accountable if they reject Him. Jesus died for our sins as God is good and being good means being just and punishing evil. But because God is good, he is also gracious and so in Jesus death the demand for justice was met as Jesus took our punishment and Grace was shown to us, those who follow Christ, as he paid our penalty for us. When Christ died, his death counted for all time, even for those people who lived before his incarnation, that's why one may argue that people had life then and that all of creation and humanity wasn't done awaty with, but given the chance to follow God, in the Old Testament through obseving the strict laws and through the New Testament through faith in Christ and following him.
How could could God allow his own Son to die you may say? Well, many people forget or don't realise how painful it must have been for God the Father to watch his own Son murdered! So, Jesus, is not the only one who suffered. Also, for people to be saved from Hell which is total seperation from Go. Which is in fact seperation from Love, Life, Joy, Laughter, Peace and well being which onlt leaves pain to endure, pain without relief. God desperately did not want us to endure that for eternity, and so wanted to spare us that, and the only way was through his death.( Jesus is God also, Father, Son(JESUS)and Holy Spirit, make up God). The good news is that Jesus defeated Hell and is seated with God the father. You say how did God allow him to suffer, the answer was it was the only way! And Jesus was willing to make the sacrife rather than lose us for eternity. You cause God to suffer everytime you reject all he has done for you. Imaging you gave your life or lost a limb in order to save somebody and they rejected you, even denied it ever happened, after what you had suffered for them, that is what you are doing.
To conclude; It is only natural to question things, but know that God loves you, so much so that he would rather go to Hell for you than to heaven without you. Which he did do, but in victory overcame.
God bless you and I hope you will one day choose God!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 23rd, 2004 01:07 pm (UTC)		(Link)

and thinking themselves wise they became fools.heretics.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 27th, 2004 06:00 pm (UTC)		(Link)
God Help You

I stumbled upon your page while reading about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I was disgusted with the article and found no factual evidence in it to prove what you say to be true. There is, however, numerous historical accounts of Jesus Christ and his crucifixion that not only prove that Jesus was truly divine, but also that he was crucified. There are also medical descriptions that prove that Jesus' death on the cross could have and did occur in hours rather than days. For instance, the beating that Jesus endured was far worse than that of a normal crucifixion. Jesus suffered from massive blood and tissue loss due to the severe lashings, the crown of thorns being placed on his head, which caused severe bleeding, and carrying the cross (although only for a short time) only added to the plethra of wounds that Jesus had already suffered. Why don't you read an account of an actual crucifixion by a real doctor and they will show this to be a fact. And even if Jesus did not die the physical death, He possessed the power to give up His spirit unto the Father, which the Gospels account; (Luke 23:46) Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. It was at this time that Jesus chose to leave His human body, the time that He chose. I know that it may be difficult to not question some of the teachings of the Bible, that is where faith comes into play. Please reevaluate you faith and your beliefs, and give Jesus a chance to work his miracle of love in your life.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 3rd, 2004 05:15 pm (UTC)		(Link)

THAT WAS JUST SAD!! "God did not need the crucifixion for any other reason than public relations." WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. YOUR REASONING THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE ARTICAL WAS PATHETIC. YOU NEED HELP!!!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 18th, 2004 10:50 am (UTC)		(Link)

You're an idiot

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 28th, 2004 07:39 am (UTC)		(Link)
Crucifixion of Christ

If all that you say is so true then why is the Bible the most known and most bought book in the world, where would all the accounts come from if its all fake and never happened. Go watch the passion of Christ you idiot!!!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 29th, 2004 05:10 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Christ died for You Vexen

I am sorry to hear that some people did not respond in a kind fashion to your comments about the crucifixion. I wish that you would trust in the Eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ so that you could experience the forgiveness of sins and eternal life and real joy and be released from your unfortunate anomosity.

I must say that I wish you had some solid support for your claims. Even a casual reading of the Old Testament would recognize that the Savior, Immanuel, Messiah, King was coming. They knew who Jesus was. He was known long before His birth. Read Luke 1 - 3. Mary, Elizabeth and Simeon knew that the long awaited hope of the world had finally come. This is why he says, "Mine eyes have seen thy salvation." It was perfect timing. "But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth His Son made of a woman, made under the law."

Please consider some honest research. Your thoughts are emotional and only based upon your ideas. However, your ideas are only as good as the next guys. Why would anyone buy into what you believe? It is wise to have a source of faith. The Word of God could open up your eyes. You only do not believe because you choose not to believe.

Sincerely,

Rev. Bryan Samms
Ringgold, LA

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 1st, 2004 01:22 am (UTC)		(Link)
MISPLACED HOPE

When God created us He gave us 'free will' and we can live any kind of life we want to .. However, if our hope is not centered on Jesus Christ .. our soul isn't anchored there .. When Christ was crucified it wasn't merely another death of another man with no saving significance .. His death had a purpose .. God sent His Son to die for each one of us because He loved us ..
Romans 5:8.. 'God demonstrates His own love for us in this .. While we were still sinners Christ died for us' ..
THERE IS NO OTHER HOPE.. Why don't you trust Christ as your Saviour.. He will take your life and make it anew ... Kay Murray

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 6th, 2004 09:33 am (UTC)		(Link)
You needs help

You are insane, the old testament foretells us of Jesus, in that time they have lived by the Law which is the ten commandments. Jesus came and died for our sins now we are living by grace he has sum up the law of the old testament "Love thy neighbour as thyself. The bible said he came to his own and they rejected him (the Jews was his own what did they do they have rejected Christ and crucified him). It is very sad that you and the Jews are still waiting for the messiah when you have crucified him, and is driving down the nails in his hand each day that you are rejecting him.

I felt sorry for you, but it is not to late surrender your life to Jesus and he will see you through. Have you ever seriously thing why God took on humanity left his glory and came down to earth died for us, such great love I will be praying for you. God bless and keep you.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 10th, 2004 04:24 am (UTC)		(Link)
Right on...

Top piece of work, both this article and the site in general. I've been doing research for some months now, reading both theist and atheist sites, and comparing both the information within each and, perhaps more importantly, the *way* in which it is formulated, presented, and conclusions drawn.
The atheist sites are in general inquisitive, interested, reasonably un-biased and draw sensible conclusions from known data and facts, whilst bearing in mind the eternal possibilities of mild inaccuracy.
The theist sites are little short of maniacal preaching - "Look, I'm right - NO, REALLY I AM!" Any evidence that they cannot overcome is met with denial or insult, rather like small children (as are some of the comments and responses to your articles).
I am neither atheist nor theist - I believe in *something*, but not the insane ramblings of bigoted priests, nor the misguided myths within the so called 'Good Book'. The something I believe in is inside, and inexplicable.
Having the strength to admit that we don't know about God, or even if he exists, means everything. It allows people to simply move forward. Jesus is an icon, nothing more, and almost certainly a mythical one at that, a real man who was borrowed by the Church and turned into a 'Saviour' years after his death. If he is indeed in a 'Heaven' and looking down, I suspect he would be highly bemused and startled by the 2000 years of oppression, hypocricy and bigotry waged against mankind by the Church in 'His' name.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 6th, 2004 06:36 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Bravi to Site and arguments

I love the scholastic style arguments that appear in some of your "Contra." I felt like I could pick-up the summa theologica and get jiggy with you. I am an ex-christian. It is all so painfully simple. Good luck to you. Keep up the good news.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 30th, 2005 03:12 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Crucifixion

Hi - good to see someone actually thinking about a difficult subject, not just fulminating...some homework would have been good though...

Despite what is often 'quoted,' the bible does not teach that we are held accountable for Adam/Eve's sin...but for our own. ("death passed upon all...because all have sinned"). Old and New Testaments both specifically define God's response to us as being governed by how we live, the choices we make and what we do.No one else's.

May I make another comment? You pose a proposition that the crucifixion was not necessary because a God with absolute power could remove sin from humanity without needing this to occur. This is evidently not true since two things are needed here, not one. Resolution requires action for both the responsibility of wrong and for its consequeces. Responsibilty follows choice. Consequences follow acts. (And sometimes failure to act). A unilateral act by God takes no account of responsibilty and leaves consequences to take care of themselves. Besides all this it bears underlining that God has a far greater ambition than just the excluson of wrong, important as that may be. He is still looking for just - righteous, not just 'moral' - people. And you can't be righteous once the essential element of choice is removed. Neither can you be - as the bible describes God - at one and the same time both 'just, and the justifier' if you independently lift the results of every wrong but do nothing else. Something more is required - that is removing the consequences of wrong, without whitewashing it. That would be rather like returning Nixon's stolen papers from watergate and then announcing that since they were back, Nixon was an ok president. Both mercy and justice are required for complete resolution. If I steal a million pounds and squander it. Mercy could just 'let me off' but justice to those I had robbed would require I repaid the million or they remain robbed. In the only such transaction of its kind, God forgave me. That was mercy to to the robber. He insistested the debt be repaid. That was justice to the robbed. He volunteered to pay the million himself. That was compassion in anyone's book. Well, almost anyone's apparently. B.T.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 21st, 2005 07:09 pm (UTC)		(Link)
The Qur'an agrees with you

Dear Vexen

Have you read what Islam's take is on the crucifixion issue. Well, I am glad to see there are people like you out there who are not afraid to use their reason.

Peace

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 10th, 2005 08:52 pm (UTC)		(Link)
No God

Shalom, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that there is no God at all from your line of reasoning. Just because you have proven that Christianity is a hoax, that does not prove that there is no God at all. That would be like saying that just because we know that Santa is a fairy tale, we can assume that Christianity is a hoax. That is just bad science, it might be an indication but we can not say that it is proof. One needs to prove all things on their own merits. We cannot throw out the baby with the bath water. We Jews do not believe in the pagan Christ god yet we believe in and worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Your logic is flawed as you only went so far as to prove that Christianity is a cruel hoax on the world with all its pagan trappings of Christmas and Easter and such, but you never disproved the Torah nor any of what the Christian world refers to as the "Old Testament", thus you have only proved that the Christian god does not exist, but not the God of the Jews, nor have you disproved the existance of any other gods for that matter. It looks as though you have a long way to go if you are to disprove the existance of all gods, especially the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. May Hashem be with you in your journey for the truth.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 7th, 2006 08:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)

you claimed that Jesus Christt commited suicide-this is not true! Jesus was sent by His father to die for us so that we would be saved, it had to be done. this was no act of suicide-when you say that statement you are claiming to alot of people that Jesus goes along with suicide and that his life seemed to had no meaning, but the reason he died on the cross for us was to show is love for us! this was very distubing, please change this as soon as you can. thank-you.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 23rd, 2006 07:30 pm (UTC)		(Link)
zealous stupidity will never leave

The logical arguments against the atonement and original sin have never been argued against with validity. Notice that Christian apologist just repeat evangelical phrases over and over again. Thats how they brainwash the less intelligent. But intelligence would show just as these articles have, that You don't have to know Jesus because people before him did not know him, and that if the old testament was the rule and the way than it could have remained as the only true source for eternity.

God could have forgave Adam and Eve and not worried about creating a son for the sin of the world. These arguments may support Islamic views but we don't need to worry about that because just look at the muslims they can't hold a candle to dignity and honor, so a religion that produces such soles at such a large scale is not valid either.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 5th, 2006 07:27 pm (UTC)		(Link)
OMG!!!!!!!

omg who sad who wood eva spend tym on dis shite

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 22nd, 2006 11:25 pm (UTC)		(Link)
???????????

I only got a few paragraphs in, but that was enough.
I will pray for you, but I won't read your trash.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: February 3rd, 2007 01:04 am (UTC)		(Link)
Genesis 3:15

I wondered for a long time how the people who lived before Christ could be redeemed and made right with God. But then I read Genesis 3:15 - the promised seed of woman who would crush the head of the serpent. The answer then is almost the same as that of those who came after Christ: Faith in the promised seed who was to come as opposed to faith in the promised seed who has already come.
It may seem a rather weak argument, but Hebrews 11 sheds some more light on this. Sorry I couldn't write more, I'm in the middle of something else and just wanted to throw this on the table.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: May 2nd, 2007 09:10 am (UTC)		(Link)

Hi,
Just one to make a comment on one thing. If you have Read the book of Hebrew in New T. You will notice that God Justify ppl by faith for those living in before 0ce. Crucification of Christ to bring the blessing to the rest of the world. You might say, it's not fair how about those that where not Jewish. If you have read about moses bring ppl out of eygpt in the Bible. You will realise some of the Eygptian in those time follow them out. From then on they are no longer called Eyptian but as a whole Isreal. This should said something.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 6th, 2007 12:07 am (UTC)		(Link)
Good clean fun- for argument's sake.

I take from most of your comments and your article that you don't think too highly of the bible. But in your article you made a lot of assumptions about God that I'm just curious- where do you get them from? If you're not getting your facts about God from scripture, where are you getting them from? It appears that you have a lot to say about God, but how can I attach any truth to what you say about God (ie: your comments on who gets into heaven, ect.) when I have no idea where you are getting them from? By all means, if you want people here to be logical and use their heads- give them some sources that are reliable. I am upset that you're trying to be all "intellectual" here- but your whole basis for argument here is kind of stupid. You're talking about so many things here that you obviously know nothing about. You say God isn't fair? What kind of a comment is that? You say God is good like that's ALL he is (assumption). If God's plan pissed you off a little bit- who are you to say it's unfair? Right- you know what's fair AND you know what God is like: all without believing scripture is true. You're not like one of those Joshep Smith prophets are you? Are you getting revelations about God that nobody else is? Please, do tell.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: August 21st, 2007 06:10 am (UTC)		(Link)
Craziness

MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR CRAZY ANTICS!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 12th, 2008 07:32 pm (UTC)		(Link)
:)

you spelt simply wrong but hey ho it was very helpful with my homework!

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 4th, 2008 02:24 am (UTC)		(Link)
in the end

if christianity is a lie and i believe it, and in the end i find out there is not heaven or hell, then i lost nothing. but if you sir are wrong, you have lost everything and i have gained everything i believed in. So what if it is a lie i believed and made me a better person in this life. you must have nothing better to do and even feel threatened by what christians claim. why dont we hear more of miracles in the news? because if there is a God, people dont want to accept life as a christian is not easy and people have to admit they have done wrong and may have to completely change their lives. may God open your eyes to the truth before its too late.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 12th, 2010 03:05 am (UTC)		(Link)
Some thoughts

Born and raised in a Christian home. I know all the answers, honey. It's quite a burden knowing everything there is to know. By the looks of the comments, it seems that there are quite a few other people in the world who also humbly know all the answers... and are quite concerned about for your soul. I will not repeat their threats of damnation. Rather, I'll tell you my thoughts on your conclusions, which(mostly)sum up my reflections on your article. Thoughts on Conclusion #1 “no authors mention the phenomenal events that supposedly occurred at the time of Jesus' resurrection, and, there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place.” Yep, it seems pretty unlikely that something so marvelous would go unrecorded. However, it is possible. If it was possible for so many scads of people to have been mistaken about the death of Christ, or for a man hung for hours on a cross and entombed for days to pop out later in perfect working order, it’s certainly possible for some historians to have missed what seemed an un-missable event. If you’re going to point out anything as improbable, start with the resurrection itself. But as we know, claiming the impossibility of such a thing has almost no effect on believers. Heavens, it’s a “miracle”, after all. Thoughts on Conclusion #2, “Most the details of Jesus' death and rebirth are similar to the existing myths surrounding god-men in that era.” Again, this is unconvincing, especially to a believer. The fact may speak as much to the myth’s truth as to its falsity. (That is, you could say that the gospels sprang up as natural successors to myths at the time. On the other hand, you could also say that due to general revelation, pagans were able to get some things “right” about the world, even though they were fatally flawed in other areas.) Thoughts on Conclusion #3. Ah, now we get to the good stuff. The crucifixion “doesn’t make sense” for what seems like three reasons. First, “God judged and accepted people into Heaven before the time when Jesus existed so it was not necessary”. Watch it. Someone could just deny that God judged people before Jesus and dismiss your argument. Some do deny that those who lived before they could have access to knowledge of Jesus have access to heaven. But even if God did "judge" and "accept" before Jesus, this doesn’t have to mean that the crucifixion was unnecessary. If God is indeed, “an eternal God, beyond time,”, then before and after wouldn’t really pose as much of a difficulty for him. If it is necessary for a person to acknowledge Christ before his death, then it would seem a bit of a conundrum. There might, however, be reasons for the crucifixion other than just making sure that all the best ones confess with their tongues. I can only think of one such reason, which I will mention shortly. Second, “it seems impossible that the crucifixion should somehow make God’s system of salvation better than it was”. Let us say that God is both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. These two abstracts seem in diametric opposition to me (isn’t mercy merely benevolent injustice?), but let’s say that this seeming contradiction exists within God. The crucifixion would not make God more just, nor would it make him more loving. But it might, perhaps, reconcile two contradictory wills in God—one to save humanity, and one to punish it for its wrongdoing. This seems especially plausible if you think of the transaction as one of debt, as many Christians do. For God to be just, he would need to be paid in full what he was owed: death. For God to be true to his merciful nature, he would not allow his loved creatures to die. Therefore, he receives full payment of death while simultaneously avoiding the death of anything he loves. He does this by demanding death from the only thing that cannot die: himself. Third, “It did not aid God's understanding of Human suffering, as God is omniscient”. Seems damned logical. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, especially regarding the mercy/justice conflict. I like people of integrity, and, frankly, you really seem to buy the atheist thing. Thanks, Joanna

From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 12th, 2010 03:07 am (UTC)		(Link)
Some thoughts

Born and raised in a Christian home. I know all the answers, honey. It's quite a burden knowing everything there is to know, but I do my best to bear the weight of perfect knowledge. By the looks of the comments, it seems that there are quite a few other people in the world who also humbly know all the answers... and are quite concerned about for your soul. I will not repeat their threats of damnation. Rather, I'll tell you my thoughts on your conclusions, which sum up (mainly) my reflections on your article.

Thoughts on Conclusion #1 “no authors mention the phenomenal events that supposedly occurred at the time of Jesus' resurrection, and, there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place.”

Yep, it seems pretty unlikely that something so marvelous would go unrecorded. However, it is possible. If it was possible for so many scads of people to have been mistaken about the death of Christ, or for a man hung for hours on a cross and entombed for days to pop out later in perfect working order, it’s certainly possible for some historians to have missed what seemed an un-missable event. If you’re going to point out anything as improbable, start with the resurrection itself. But as we know, claiming the impossibility of such a thing has almost no effect on believers. Heavens, it’s a “miracle”, after all.

Thoughts on Conclusion #2, “Most the details of Jesus' death and rebirth are similar to the existing myths surrounding god-men in that era.”

Again, this is unconvincing, especially to a believer. The fact may speak as much to the myth’s truth as to its falsity. (That is, you could say that the gospels sprang up as natural successors to myths at the time. On the other hand, you could also say that due to general revelation, pagans were able to get some things “right” about the world, even though they were fatally flawed in other areas.)

Thoughts on Conclusion #3.

Ah, now we get to the good stuff. The crucifixion “doesn’t make sense” for what seems like three reasons according to the above statement.

First, “God judged and accepted people into Heaven before the time when Jesus existed so it was not necessary”. Watch it. Someone could just deny that God judged people before Jesus and dismiss your argument. Some do deny that those who lived before they could have access to knowledge of Jesus have access to heaven. But even if God did "judge" and "accept" before Jesus, this doesn’t have to mean that the crucifixion was unnecessary. If God is indeed, “an eternal God, beyond time,”, then before and after wouldn’t really pose as much of a difficulty for him. If it is necessary for a person to acknowledge Christ before his death, then it would seem a bit of a conundrum. There might, however, be reasons for the crucifixion other than just making sure that all the best ones confess with their tongues. I can only think of one such reason, which I will mention shortly.

Second, “it seems impossible that the crucifixion should somehow make God’s system of salvation better than it was”. Let us say that God is both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. These two abstracts seem in diametric opposition to me (isn’t mercy merely benevolent injustice?), but let’s say that this seeming contradiction exists within God. The crucifixion would not make God more just, nor would it make him more loving. But it might, perhaps, reconcile two contradictory wills in God—one to save humanity, and one to punish it for its wrongdoing. This seems especially plausible if you think of the transaction as one of debt, as many Christians do. For God to be just, he would need to be paid in full what he was owed: death. For God to be true to his merciful nature, he would not allow his loved creatures to die. Therefore, he receives full payment of death while simultaneously avoiding the death of anything he loves. He does this by demanding death from the only thing that cannot die: himself.

Third, “It did not aid God's understanding of Human suffering, as God is omniscient”. Seems damned logical.


I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, especially regarding the mercy/justice conflict. I like people of integrity, and, frankly, you really seem to buy the atheist thing.

Thanks,

Joanna