Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
vexen

Why dispense with Christianity or theism?

"Time to Move On: Religion Has Cost Too Much" by Vexen Crabtree (link updated 2010 Feb)

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This is a scream. What amuses me most about anti-theists is that, after declaring there is no God or religion provides no basis for morals, they want to turn around and start telling ME what to do!

Bahahahahahahahahaha!

If there were no God, I sure as hell would not be taking directions from some anti-theist with a half baked website.

I'd make my own rules!!! Bahahahahaha!!!

existance of god

(Anonymous)
God is a concept or idea that has been communicated.

Existance of a concept is a nebulus thing.
We all beleive what we beleive to do what we do, but beleiving that ideas are real not mentally sound, even though it may help you to be content with yourself.

We beleive what we beleive to do what we do, and god is a concept are two basic truths that we hold to be self evident.

Great site.

(Anonymous)
Greetings from Israel/Russia!
A great, aesthetic, loud and clear site dedicated to the first and most ancient philosophy of all. Well done you guys! God save the queen :)

a christian view

(Anonymous)
I want to comment on your concepts of christian's killing each other in the name of religion. Any person can call themselves a christian and then kill in the Lord's name. But that has no reflection on God Himself. That is simply a selfish person with an excuse. And by the way, if a christian says "I'll pray for you", it's because they believe it is the greatest gift on Earth you recieve. And they feel so deeply towards you that they take the situation to God. I also can't understand why you would call the Prince of Peace bloodthirsty. He is the one that says to love your neighbor and your enemy.

Re: a christian view

There are many instances of 'good' people being told to kill in the Bible itself, so I don't buy it that "true" "Christians" are ones who don't kill.

For example;

Exodus 32:27-28, "The Lord God of Israel commands every one of you to put on his sword and go through the camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers, his friends and his neighbours. The Levites obeyed and killed about 3000 Men that day."

and

Numbers 31:17 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him" (in other words: women that might be pregnant)

etc.

Praying:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/prayer.html concludes:

"God knows everything - everything we say in prayer, God already knows. The point of praying is definitely not to reveal things to an all-knowing God. God acts only when God knows it is good to act, the wishes of prayer can only ever be against God's will [...] If you ask a Christian or a Muslim, what will they say is the magical force that acts against God's will? Satan's will. If a supernatural affect such as prayer goes against God's will, then it is Satanic. As such, prayer is either useless, or Satanic."

Re: a christian view

(Anonymous)
I think that many of the things written in the Bible have a political basis so we'd better not read it literary. According to me the idea of the biblical history nowadays is just helping people overcome their misfortunes throuth belief in a better life.
Monica Nickoles
http://spiritualweblog.com/

Satanism and strong atheism-not THE unreligion{satanic superiorty}.

(Anonymous)
Hey Vexen,I hope you're well?

I wanted to make a quick comment on this:
{Quote/}Satanism is THE unreligion that is destined to win, for no other religion stands for truth, for provable fact or for the carnal Earthly existence that is the be all and end all of Human existence. Human Beings exist for Human Being's sake - not for the teleological falsehood of Divine Will. {Unquote/}

Why speak of Satanism in such a superior manner,same w/atheism?
To me this smacks of the same superiority complex other religions have, and though currently Satanism opposes such things, is it not possible that like the teachings of Jesus{whom probably never existed} got twisted into a war call, that this could happen w/militaristically atheistic satanism? Could not the very fact that myths are adhered to by us bring us a couple thounsand years from now to be the oppressers?

When you say Satanism is THE unreligion that is destined to win, just like Lavy says in his bible "I am a satanist, bow before me, for I am the highest embodiment of human life"{which, lets just theorize that the Satanic religion got lucky and gained alot of social/politcal ground and some powerful people converted, is it not possible that such socially darwinistic and such misanthropy and such arrogant superioity/alien elite statements could result in beeing used to justify oprressions some day?}, those statements are DEAD FALSE! Satanism is not THE unreligion, nor destined to win, nor superior to many other freethought religions and philosophies, it is just one of several{at least}.

Buddhism{which you give props too yourself, which I think is honorable of you; and I would venture to say that Buddhism is supeiror to even satanism, becuase for a religion and a founder that existed as long ago and came into creation as long ago as Sidharthas Buddhism did-it was cneturies or even thousands of years ahead of it's time, I'm not so sure the same can be said for much of what "passes as" modern satanism and strong athiesm today}.

Then there is in my personal opinion; a religion that is "perhaps"{maybe} even MORE an unreligion than Satanism, called Universism, it unites all kinds of freethinkers and does'nt proport either atheism,scientific pantheism,deism,agnosticism,trancendentalims orany others that fit into this uncertainty,reason-based, world view, it does'nt try and proclaim any of them as superior, but all are equally supeior to faith absed raditional religions and other faith absed religions, furthermore there is less hypocrisy in it's pseudo-doctrines, in it's founders{thus far}, less obsession w/ritual{I know that Lavey said human need fanasy and enchantment, and to some degree he's right, but do we really need ritual and ceremony that imitates those of other religions in an inverted manner, do we really truly all need psychodrama? maybe some do but not all people do. I suspect that what Lavey said about this was half-truth he pulled outa thin air to further his own religion}.

TO BE CONTINUED...

Re: Satanism and strong atheism-not THE unreligion{satanic superiorty}.

(Anonymous)
continued from above post...

...What of "athiesms" superiority? It simply is not. I am not agnostic myself, I've leaned more towards Deism and deistic offshoots{PanDeism,PanenDeism} since I abandoned faith based religion{christianity}, but I can honestly say that fact is if there is such a philosophy of whether or not their is a creator/or creative force and/or spiritual realites -it would be agnosticism, not atheism, nor even my personal view of deism{and deistic offshoots}.
I find the constant proclaiming of athiesm and Satanism put into such superior words and attitues to be off putting and makes me not trust those whom would proclaim them as so superior.
No offense to you, because thus far I've great respect for you and most of your essays and views, but I feel that some honest and positive{or perhaps not so positive,depends on your view} critisism of these ideas needs to be put forth. For Satanism and athiesm are attempting to rear for themselves a throne, and if they don't tread more wisely and carefully-they could be the future oppressors, these hypocrisies w/in both strong athiesm and satanism{whether atheistic satanism,or just each on their own} need to be thouroughly examined and criticasized; hell...even Ragnar redbeard says so in Laveys plagiarized "book of satan" and Lavey even says so in his own words at times, by pointing out that no dogma and no creeds should build a throne to themselves and where they do and fail to truly fit up to the facts-they should be assailed{many satanists refuse to do this w/their own religion,their own founder,etc; but do it to theistic faiths and neopagans religions w/impunity}.

My View is this; ALL FREETHOUGH RELIGIONS AND PHILOSOPHIES THAT ARE REASON{NOT FAITH} BASED ARE EQUALLY THE "UNRELIGIONS" AND EQUALLY DESERVING OF WINNING A BETTER WORLD FOR ALL OF US{WHICH WE MAY OR MAY NOT SUCEED AT; WE CERTAINLY WON'T SO LONG AS WE IGNORE EACH OTHER IN OUR FREETHOUGHT SECTARIANISMS}-AND THEY ALL{OR MOST F THEM, CERTAINLY MORE THAN ONLY SATANISM}STAND EQUALLY FOR THE TRUTH!!!

I mean you no offense Vexen, but frankly, I'm dissapointed. Because from I have seen -you are much more intellgent than to buy into this Laveyan hypocriteical rhetoric of Laveyan tpye "strong" atheistic Satanisms superiority.
I'm dissapointed because I frankly have ALOT of respect for you, and personally think that you can think more criticallyand wisely than that.

So, I'm gonna say that the comment from you which I quoted was a half-truh at best!

Apart from this rant, I gotta say in regards the rest of your essay-excellent work as always man! Once again, the nail has been hiton the head by you. Keep up the good work.

In Reason:
Bill Baker

p.s. my opinions on Universism and agnosticism{or deism for that matter} or on Buddhism are what I can see froma truly critical eye; however, I am not syaing that they are neccaserily superior to Satanism or athiesm{atheisst are one of the staples of the universist movement; and Buddhists are essentially spiritual atheists or perhaps pantheists}, I'm simply saying that they are equal "at least". All freethought philosophy and faithless un-religions are equally superior to faith and theism.

PanDeism

(Anonymous)
Here's my favored conception of PanDeism: at the beginning of time, all energy in the universe was collapsed into a single sentient force, which was all-knowing because it was all there was to know. That sentience was, therefore, bored. The only way it could experience new things would be to impose limitations on itself, so it blew itself up in what we know as the Big Bang, and became the physical universe (note - all matter is merely energy constrained by forces of physics, created by this sentience at the outset). The physical universe now is the body of this energy, but the sentience is gone (for now). At the end of time, all of the particles will come back together as one, and all the experiences of those particles (as mankind, or whatnot) will be in the knowledge of this restored force. Then the whole process repeats. The great religious figures, Jesus, Moses, Buddha, they were just tapping into their own potential as fragments of an unlimited force.

It's interesting that religion seems like something that can be eliminated from your point of view. But then, I'm currently living in Virginia and you are half a world away. People who want to be pushy about their religious beliefs here can usually socially get away with it, so long as those beliefs are Christian. If it weren't such a common thing, it would be amazing how many Christians think that unbelievers are necessarily bad people. It's funny how many people have been surprised when they found out I'm an atheist because I seemed nice or otherwise didn't "seem like an atheist." I could say much more, but I'd only be whining, so I won't. Personally, I decided a couple of years ago that eliminating religion seemed, well, impossible, and that attempting to do so would be a colossal waste of time. People seem to be inexplicably attracted to religion, it's weird, and I only half understand it. This mysterious attraction that religion seems to have for so many people is one of the reasons why religions, as cultural institutions, fascinate me so much. There are so many otherwise perfectly reasonable people who cling to religious beliefs that blatantly fly in the face of reason that it just boggles my mind. Oh well. Shrug...


Christianity... from Ashlee McFarland( A PROUD CHRISTIAN!!!)

(Anonymous)
Have you ever even read the Bible, God's word, all the way through.. in my opinion, you talk about America being the last bastion for bible basher's, but did you know that in fact that our country was founded upon Christian values and morals? It's the truth... The reason that America has propered in such an awsome way, is because we are a Christian or Godly nation. Jews, they are God's chosen people! Musliums.. they are people of my God as well, I serve and proudly advocate my Lord Jesus Christ as the savior of my soul and all the soul's of mankind. I don't have a problem with any other religion, but as a Christian, it hurts and deeply offends me when people say that he is not real.. he was a live human being! He died on the cross and went through a very painful death, I believe that you should watch Passion of Christ.. Christians are the world's LARGEST religious faction.. we have lasted for over 2,000 years and we WILL stand the test of time until Jesus comes back! If I were you, I would start looking and reading the signs! We are living in the last days, there are signs all around us, we do not live in trivilations, but in the last days before Jesus comes back! I think that you should at least visit the website www.lastdays.com and do more research on this subject before you run your mouth about things you know nothing about. Oh yeah, that brings me to my next point, Christians have been dying in the name of God and Christ, because fought for the truth, or so as they saw it, I myself am a Church of God person! How can you, worship something so evil, and vail when you know that God exists? and is good? I don't understand why you would do such a thing?!?!? I mean use some common sense here.. and PRAYER is the Christian way of talking to God, and basically trying to make this world a better place to live in... I am 16 years old and I know this stuff.. so why dont you???

Re: Christianity... from Ashlee McFarland( A PROUD CHRISTIAN!!!)

You sure don't believe in paragraphs, do you? Looking at your humungous block of text is like looking at one of those optical puzzles, where the lines kind-of move around and squirm under your vision.

Anyway, your points:

1) I have read many Bibles, and when it comes the the Christian bible, I have read it front to back, back to front. I've studied the Greek, the Hebrew, different versions of all the gospels, the authenticity of the texts & letters, and the history of its formation. Why do you ask?

2) http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/presidents.html
Most US founders were deists, not Christians. History is clear on this and I am not sure why US Christians seem to think the founding fathers were also Chrsitians. They largely weren't.

3) OK, so your reasoning means that the reason that the Roman Empire prospered was because they were sun worshippers and pagans? Was the reason that the Muslim empire prospered - once being the centre of all development in maths, science and philosophy, was because they denied the trinity (as instructed in the Koran) and know that Muhammad was the last prophet of God? If you do not believe that these empires were successful because of their religion, why do you think it matters what religion the USA is?

Also for your information, the USA is one of the worlds' most religious diverse places.

4) About Christianity "being 2000 years old" and being the worlds biggest religion. Do not be confused: Christianity is not a single religion. There have been a series of religions, many of them completely different, that we have called 'Christian'. http://www.vexen.co.uk/christianity_historical.html looks at some of these major different forms of Christianity, and concludes:

"'Christianity' as a single religion is not 2,000 years old. A series of varied different religions, flowing on from one another, have all called themselves "Christian". Rightly so. But the beliefs and form has changed so much from time to time that it is best to consider Christianity a series of religions and the word "Christianity" to be an umbrella term for multiple faiths all of which have the same name but different beliefs. They do obviously, like all Abrahamic religions, have things in common between them but nonetheless, "Christianity" is not a set of beliefs that can be claimed by any particular denomination or historical movement because it is an umbrella term."

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/numbers.html continues:

"One major aspect of Christianity can be said to be the cause of its success: That there is a lot of widespread difference in belief across Christian denominations. As perhaps the most fragmented and violent religion in history, Christianity has become broken into countless different Churches all of which call themselves Christian. Many denominations are intolerant of each others' beliefs. It can be said that as all these denominations cover such a wide range of beliefs that it is obvious that many people can call themselves a Christian. But, merely knowing that they call themselves a Christian gives us very little actual information about their beliefs, as Christianity is such a diverse religion. [...] In this way all major religions that exist for long period of time (thousands of years) come to be more of an umbrella term for a vast array of beliefs and practices."

For example, the Pauline Christianity that we know today - complete with the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, One God (and no others), was only truly formulated in the fourth century by Emperor Constantine. Before then, gnostic Christianity was the most popular kind; where there was no real bodily Jesus.

So be careful when you imply that all Christians of the past are "Christians" as we would call them, because it simply isn't true.

Finally, just because it is popular doesn't make it right: http://www.humantruth.info/massbeilef.html

Re: Christianity... from Ashlee McFarland( A PROUD CHRISTIAN!!!)

You sure don't believe in paragraphs, do you? Looking at your humungous block of text is like looking at one of those optical puzzles, where the lines kind-of move around and squirm under your vision.

Anyway, your points:

1) I have read many Bibles, and when it comes the the Christian bible, I have read it front to back, back to front. I've studied the Greek, the Hebrew, different versions of all the gospels, the authenticity of the texts & letters, and the history of its formation. Why do you ask?

2) http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/presidents.html
Most US founders were deists, not Christians (www.vexen.co.uk/religion/presidents.html). History is clear on this and I am not sure why US Christians seem to think the founding fathers were also Chrsitians. They largely weren't.

3) OK, so your reasoning means that the reason that the Roman Empire prospered was because they were sun worshippers and pagans? Was the reason that the Muslim empire prospered - once being the centre of all development in maths, science and philosophy, was because they denied the trinity (as instructed in the Koran) and know that Muhammad was the last prophet of God? If you do not believe that these empires were successful because of their religion, why do you think it matters what religion the USA is?

Also for your information, the USA is one of the worlds' most religious diverse places.

4) About Christianity "being 2000 years old" and being the worlds biggest religion. Do not be confused: Christianity is not a single religion. There have been a series of religions, many of them completely different, that we have called 'Christian'. http://www.vexen.co.uk/christianity_historical.html looks at some of these major different forms of Christianity, and concludes:

"'Christianity' as a single religion is not 2,000 years old. A series of varied different religions, flowing on from one another, have all called themselves "Christian". Rightly so. But the beliefs and form has changed so much from time to time that it is best to consider Christianity a series of religions and the word "Christianity" to be an umbrella term for multiple faiths all of which have the same name but different beliefs. They do obviously, like all Abrahamic religions, have things in common between them but nonetheless, "Christianity" is not a set of beliefs that can be claimed by any particular denomination or historical movement because it is an umbrella term."

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/numbers.html continues:

"One major aspect of Christianity can be said to be the cause of its success: That there is a lot of widespread difference in belief across Christian denominations. As perhaps the most fragmented and violent religion in history, Christianity has become broken into countless different Churches all of which call themselves Christian. Many denominations are intolerant of each others' beliefs. It can be said that as all these denominations cover such a wide range of beliefs that it is obvious that many people can call themselves a Christian. But, merely knowing that they call themselves a Christian gives us very little actual information about their beliefs, as Christianity is such a diverse religion. [...] In this way all major religions that exist for long period of time (thousands of years) come to be more of an umbrella term for a vast array of beliefs and practices."

For example, the Pauline Christianity that we know today - complete with the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, One God (and no others), was only truly formulated in the fourth century by Emperor Constantine. Before then, gnostic Christianity was the most popular kind; where there was no real bodily Jesus.

So be careful when you imply that all Christians of the past are "Christians" as we would call them, because it simply isn't true.

Finally, just because it is popular doesn't make it right (www.humantruth.info/massbelief.html).

Response to above

(Anonymous)
Okay! I know that the USA is religiously diverse.. BUT you didn't get my point! I was SIMPLY stating that the USA is FOUNDED on Christian morals... 11 of our founding fathers were in the Knight of Templar... (Christian Knights) Look it up in the book American Pagent, an AP U.S. History book... we studied about it this year in school!
All religions change, Christianity has changed along with the times, but they were still Christians because they worshiped our Lord and Savior Jesus!
Look we could debate this forever, but bottom line, I have my beliefs and you have yours! I respect your beliefs as a human being, however I strongly disagree with you! I am only in High-school, however I am well versed on the Bible and in U.S. and World History, I love it and I know it very well... and I guess that I am trying to make you understand, that being a Christian and worshipping one GOD is not horrible, it is wonderful.. I am sorry to say that you will never get to feel what a wonderful and awsome feeling it is to be baptisted by the Holy Ghost! Maybe you should pray and be a christian for a while and kind of walk a mile in our shoes before you judge us!
Ashlee Mcfarland
PS Sorry about the paragraph thing i kinda got on a role!

Re: Response to above

(Anonymous)
The U.S. was not founded on "christian morals." The religion or lack thereof of the founders is irrelevant. The fact is they created a secular, constitutional republic, with separation of church and state, and freedom of (and from) religion. It's values were derived not from some "holy" book, but from British Common Law, which predated the "introduction" of christianity to Britain.

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." - John Adams

asdf

(Anonymous)
Lol, you're so going to hell!
What a loser.

Marriage doesn't provide any benefits. The people should probably use a different word anyway. If people want to close a business and be opressed that's thier business. Not every religion is the same. The word religion is often misused. Aethiesm, agnosticism, and satanism counts as a religion. The words are thrown around wrong. My beliefs do not involve fasting, abstinence, or any of the other stuff you said. I do think that God made it so that we don't have to worry about that stuff anymore and that we can just go ahead and do all the stuff that you said would happen if religion didn't exist. Religion causes argument and should not be discussed. YES SOME RELIGIONS ARE RIDICULOUS AND MOST HAVE A NEGATIVE IMPACT BUT HOPEFULY TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES WILL ALLOW FOR PEOPLE TO DO HATEVER THEY WANT IN LIFE WITHOUT ANY TRUE HINDERANCE. Anyway you are pretty much right but if you try hard enough with technology you will accomplish anything ANYWAY IT'S ONLY NATURAL!!!! ////We didn't need technology anyway... All we needed was sex, plants to get us high and trees with fruit on them along with animals to hunt....

religions are barbaric and cruel... but, haven't the atheists also been barbaric? china, russia, cuba, cambodia, vietnam, north korea, etc. have combined killed over 80,000,000 people since 1917.... is this ok?... and if we are going to just kill people, why not kill atheists as well? after all, they pollute the planet, molest children, and murder their neighbors as well!!!!

You miss the point: There have been many genocides commited without any support from relgious ideas. When people say that wars have been caused by religion, they don't mean that those involve merely happen to be religious. They mean that religious sentiments were part of the motivation.

Atheism has not supplied any incentive for war, or at the very least, has done so only in a tiny proportion of cases compared with religious motivations for bloodshed.

This nulls your counter-points.

One more dictator

(Anonymous)
This site is written by yet another dictator who wishes the world to think and believe as he does. Unfortunately for all of us reading his site, he doesn't even have a mastering of his own language. Alas, this "free thinker" is just another "brainless wonder" ranting about something he, himself, only partially understands.

Finally, someone that questions what most have us just been told to blindy believe but intelligent to get the facts and know the truth.

I have rejected the idea of a good and loving god since I saw a movie about Jesus as a small child and was horrified when Jesus was nailed to the cost and his dad allowed this.

Then again when my religious grandmother gave me a children bible and I read how god told Abraham to kill his own son! Again I was horrified.

I will not call myself an expert about religion but have always felt that if there is a god and the bible is real, then like you said, god is evil!

My views are that being a good person should be what matters. If the only way to beconsidered good is to "worship god" then I am ok with not being good.

To say I would burn in he'll forever by not worshiping someone that we have no proof exists is sick! If he would do that, why is being with him what people want.

I am not one to tell others they are wrong but I do have some views:

if you beleive in the bible, u have to be open to the woman that kills her kids saying god told her to do so". If the bible is true, god has done it before and you should not just assume she is crazy.

If you believe god exists, you have to wonder what did he do before he created the earth, man etc etc etc. Did he create other universes and planets?

Why did he allow one mans betrayal allow the rest of the world to experience pain and suffering.

That he is evil. Why, let's take one story, Noahs Ark. So he felt people had gone too far toward evil so he kills everyone with floods. Innocent children especially gets to me. If this also is true, how can you worship God?

Sorry for typos, on my cell phone.




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