You are viewing vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal - Jesus did not exist
Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards
Add to Memories
Jesus did not exist
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 22nd, 2003 04:28 am (UTC) (Link)

Jesus did not exist

If Jesus didn't exist how come there are Jewish, Roman and Greek documents relating to him, that even the biggest atheistic scolars have been unable to disprove? Also Jesus was seen by over 500 people AFTER he rose from the dead, amongst these two Roman historians and a Jewish historian who all say the same things yet could have never met! Also the New Testament itself is widelt viewed to be a very accurate historical document.The question is not whether Jesus existed. It is who he really was!
vexen From: vexen Date: November 22nd, 2003 06:15 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

There are no Roman documents that mention Jesus. The only Jewish ones were written by gnostic Christians (such as Paul) who didn't believe in a literal Christ, but a transcendental concept of Christ.

If by "Jewish scholar" you mean Josephus, the only time Josephus mentions Jesus is in a comment called the "Flavius Testimonium", which was faked in about the 4th century by Christians.

In short: There are no historical documents that mention a historical Jesus. The only documents we have are some gnostic Christian/Jewish Christian stuff, later on.

The NT is very much NOT regarded as a "very accurate" historical document.

Firstly, it is not a "document" but a series of books written across a few hundred years.

Seconly, the earliest texts treat Jesus as a symbol and part of gnostic story telling - not a literal person

Thirdly, early Church fathers did NOT know (for example) on what day Jesus was born, what die he died, where he was buried, etc. They didn't know this because there was no Jesus.

Try reading some of the links on that page, there are some very detailed documents and studies of some of the texts I've mentioned, it is a very comprehensively studied area of history.
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 24th, 2003 11:37 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

Paul obviously believed in the actual, physical Jesus.

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died mfor our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then rto the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then tto all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, uhe appeared also to me." 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 (written by Paul).

Transcendental ideas and non-literal people do not die, be buried, and be raised. Transcendental ideas do not walk the earth and talk with people. They do not live among real historical people who write real historical books. People do not claim to walk and talk with a transcendental idea. The disciples and the early Christians knew the reality of a historical Jesus set within a historical context who was put to death on an instrument of death used in a historical Roman empire. This historical Jesus entered the history that he created and ordained from timelessness and perfection so that he could save me, save so many others, and even extend this offer of salvation to you. I know that you will ridicule me and laugh at my ignorance and blind faith. But I beg of you and whoever else reads this post to consider the possibility of God, the reality of God. Then realise just how foolish this whole website looks in the face of that reality. If God exists and if he is the righteous and wrathful Judge that the Bible claims Him to be, just look at the horrible arrogance and ignorance that this site reveals. I would ask you to turn to the grace that is offered by this same wrathful God who would die for us even though we all are so arrogant and ignorant. He would declare us all guilty and deserving of death and then step down from his place as judge and take the sentence of death that he pronounced in his righteousness. Please turn and repent. Christ not only existed in person, he is alive on heaven on the throne, and he has already judged us all guilty. Turn to him and let the wrath that you and I have each earned for ourselves be placed on him, for your good and for His glory.
Love in Christ
From: (Anonymous) Date: February 21st, 2004 04:54 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

"There are no Roman documents that mention Jesus." Beacuse the documents are not Roman, do you honestly think they cannot be true? There have been documents, and to cast them aside becuse they are not Roman is foolish. The Jewish race had many MANY scholars, and to ignore them is like saying that you will not believe in George Washington, just because he was not a citizen of the ruling governtment at the time.
vexen From: vexen Date: November 18th, 2004 08:03 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

Of the Jewish race, the most prolific and detailed was Josephus, who did not mention Jesus despite documenting at length Jewish events in the first century.

The original Christians did not know where Jesus was buried, when he was resurrected, and the original form of Christianity, gnostic christianity, considered the messiah to be purely immaterial, spiritual, not an actual person. Go figure.
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 12th, 2004 08:46 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

So God created evil huh thats why he either doesnt exist or is evil himself? if i remember correctly Satan tempted Eve in the garden and caused the downfall of men That caused Evil to spread through this world. But God has promised heaven to those who believe in the lord jesus and his sacrifice. He never told us it would be easy. He told us that the straight and narrow path would be hard to travel. But also that the straight and narrow path would lead us to heaven. I know your story. Your an easy person to read my brother. I can look deep down in your heart just by reading your writing. I will be praying for you for God to heal the malice in your heart towards him
vexen From: vexen Date: November 18th, 2004 08:08 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

So, why did does God not put everyone in heaven, immediately?

There would then be no suffering.

It doesn't matter if some people don't deserve it, a loving God would do it anyway.

It doesn't matter that some people don't CHOOSE heaven or don't know about heaven, such people would be happy there, so it's best to do it.

Why doesn't God?

There isn't a god, and there isn't a heaven. (no god!)
From: (Anonymous) Date: February 15th, 2005 02:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

You are basing your reasoning on a misunderstanding of the nature of a "loving" God. Love does not "force" people to do anything.
vexen From: vexen Date: February 16th, 2005 11:27 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

That's a useless excuse. Why doesn't God put everyone in Heaven? It would end all problems. Just stating that it doesn't do it because it doesn't force people to do things is rubbish. It FORCED millions of SE Asians to move from their homes in the aftermath of the tsunami, it forces millions of people to have diabetes, genetic disorders, unfortunate diseases, natural diseases... it forces all these bad things on people, why wont God force heaven on everyone too?
vexen From: vexen Date: April 11th, 2005 06:59 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

I've wrote up more of a response at:
From: (Anonymous) Date: October 14th, 2011 08:56 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

Actually, if you put aside your religious (or non-religious) beliefs for a second and think outside the box, and imagine that you are this Creator who wants to create ONE planet with living things on it, and create things on it that are in your likeness would you not want to see how it all played out? Thinking along the lines of a story writer who hands over his script to a trustworthy director (in this case the LORD himself is the creator), wouldn't it be interesting to see how all the pieces fit together, and would it not hurt to see things collide? Wouldn't it hurt to see all of these ignorant things battling with one another and tearing up this beautiful planet that you created? Would you not want to place into existence this thing, through you, that could somehow change the course of the show? What if you had to put away this show after awhile, but you did not want to keep all but the very best pieces. If these things that were in your likeness were the ones creating havoc would you not also want a way for these things to decide their own destiny? I don't know about you, but if I were the Creator running this show I'd want to be as removed from it as possible and just let things play out, only intervening when necessary to assure that the outcome is a positive one.
From: (Anonymous) Date: May 15th, 2006 05:10 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

Give us a break. You claim Paul didn't believe in a literal Christ but was a gnostic. There's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip and that's yours. Paul was a contemporary of those who walked and talked with Jesus. If you believe there was a Paul and accept that he didn't lie when he claimed to have met Peter, James and John, then you must accept the existence of Jesus.

From: (Anonymous) Date: July 26th, 2007 07:03 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

Friend , there are several Roman and Greek and surprisingly Jewish historical documents relating to Jesus. Even Jewish and Roman historical manuscripts document the crucifixion, Remember the Jewish people are the last people on the planet who would believe in God descending onto the world in human incarnation let alone offering himself as a sacrifice for our sins.Infact the Jews and the Romans wanted christianity stamped out because it posed a treath to their civilsations and they were concerned about how fast it was growing. Yet Paul (who was a Jewish high priest who actively persued Christians to put them to death) believed after he witnessed the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus. Explain how the entire Pagan Greek and Roman empire converted to christianity who were advanced civilisations and highly intelligent for the times. Listen,I grew up in a strict catholic family, had a brief time with the Mormon church and later converted to Buddhism, but it wasn't until several years ago that a close friend introduced me to the true christian faith that I started to fully understand who Jesus was, so believe me I honestly Respect everyone’s opinion regarding their spiritual (or lack of spiritual) beliefs because i've been there, and I admit the actions of many Christians today, infact entire churches would push people away from Christianity but I appeal to you,not to judge christianity based on the lives and actions of the many people who claim to follow him just by name(even though many of them are good people) because we are all flawed, but instead I would ask you to Look the teachings of Jesus youself and at least consider what he tells us and consider that he is the one man who lived the life and for that matter died the death we should.
Hope this helps
From: (Anonymous) Date: September 11th, 2009 10:30 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

Did you ever notice that almost every person who tried to disprove christianity FAILED MISREBLY and BECAME CHRISTIAN
From: (Anonymous) Date: December 8th, 2010 10:42 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

dude are you serious?! there are over 25,000 manuscripts for the NT ALONE! i think that is more than enough to compare and contrast what is right and what is wrong. that makes it trustworthy. secondly, the earliest text tells of the life of Jesus, and doesnt treat him like a fictional character. thirdly, when Jesus was born, he was born into a very wealthy or aristocratic family at that time, so they probably didn't record every little thing because they didn't think he was very important at that point in time. as for his death, Jewish leaders didn't even want people thinking about Jesus, so I'd doubt they'd record that. I'd highly recommend the book Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Lee was a former atheist and this book tells of his journey and research about Jesus.
vexen From: vexen Date: December 9th, 2010 04:17 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

(1) None of those NT documents were written within the same generation as Jesus lived and vast majority are hundreds of years later. Only St Paul's writing are close to the original dates, and he is a person who never himself met Jesus except for in a vision! The evidence is not trustworthy at all.

(2) Give example early texts that talk about the life of Jesus, please.

(3) The vast majority of records are to do with the well-off; the richer the family, the more likely there are to be written records. 95% of all the illiterate and poor, thousands of years ago, are completely lost to hsitory.

(4) Jewish leaders didn't mention Jesus-the-Messiah (Jesus was otherwise a common name like "Simon" or "Dave" today). Neither did Jewish historians of the time; Josephus. Your idea about Jewish leaders result from texts written about them by Christians, much, much later.

(5) Lee Strobel is an absolutely terrible source of information, especialy on history (and science) - he's a fundamentalist, creationist, anti-science, anti-history, prolific preacher whose interest is in promoting his religion, not in discovering truth.
From: (Anonymous) Date: January 1st, 2004 09:41 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

This not the case my scared friend:

If this article can help you out, then don't listen to any criticism. It is obvious that you are a born again. That is fine, but don't go to websites where thinking people roam.

They early chritians forged documents, the catholic church even admints this. "Forgery during the first centuries of the Church's existence was admittedly rampant, so common in fact that a new phrase was coined to describe it: "pious fraud.""(from URL)

Small piece of the above cited URL:
A century ago, mythicist Albert Churchward said, "The canonical gospels can be shown to be a collection of sayings from the Egyptian Mythos and Eschatology."8 In Forgery in Christianity, Joseph Wheless states, "The gospels are all priestly forgeries over a century after their pretended dates."9 Those who concocted some of the hundreds of "alternative" gospels and epistles that were being kicked about during the first several centuries C.E. have even admitted that they had forged the documents.10 Forgery during the first centuries of the Church's existence was admittedly rampant, so common in fact that a new phrase was coined to describe it: "pious fraud."11 Such prevarication is confessed to repeatedly in the Catholic Encyclopedia.12 Some of the "great" church fathers, such as Eusebius13, were determined by their own peers to be unbelievable liars who regularly wrote their own fictions of what "the Lord" said and did during "his" alleged sojourn upon the earth.14

From: (Anonymous) Date: January 28th, 2009 10:43 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

I am from yesterday, today and tomorrow. and my wife is called Madonna C., that's my GOD(dess).

I was slaughtered ages ago, but managed to get by.
See my sites:
From: (Anonymous) Date: September 11th, 2009 10:58 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Jesus did not exist

I feel very sorry for those of you who do not beleive in the one true living god, the trinity (father, son: Jesus, holy spirit), The almighty Yahway.he is all that was is and is to come.
The only way to heven is through Jesus.
190 Comments or Make Comment