2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


Previous Entry Share Next Entry
ChinCollarDots
vexen

Jesus did not exist

"Jesus Did Not Exist" by Vexen Crabtree

what HE taught

(Anonymous)

2007-12-06 08:57 pm (UTC)

This is the opposite of the truth:

"All the actual sayings and teachings of Jesus were also not new, and much of the time speeches attributed to Jesus are more like collections of Jewish and Pagan sayings. Even distinctive texts like the Sermon on the Mount are not unique. If we remove all the content that Jesus could not have heard and repeated himself, there is nothing else left. If we remove the supernatural elements of Christianity that are copies of already existing thought and religion, there is nothing left which is unique!"

You'll notice no evidence is provided for the view expressed in this paragraph. What Jewish and Pagan sayings are you talking about? Where is judge not, blessed are the meek, love your neigbor as yourself in the Judaic or Hellenist tradition? Where is the "cast the first stone", the parable of wedding clothes, the "be fishers of men"? I have never seen anything like these. In fact, to the contrary, it seems to me pre-christian religion conceived of god's and demigods as heroes, strongmen, patriarchs preaching war and power, not meek victims who preached love.


If you could elaborate, I might come over to your viewpoint eventually. But as for now, I think you have totally missed it. What is taught in the Beatitudes is brand new at that time, and that's the best evidence that Jesus was real.




Re: what HE taught

vexen

2007-12-18 09:19 am (UTC)

"Nothing is New: Religions Evolve" by Vexen Crabtree (2007) contains general notes on how all religions inherit pre-existing beliefs from their neighbours.

Remember the Dead Sea Scrolls? "Dead Sea Scrolls" by Stephen Hodge, contains an account of them. Reading it, I noted many similarities and many occasions where what Christians once thought was uniquely Christian, is in fact older than Christianity. So here are some Jewish similarities:

p211-214
Hodge lists many of the similar practices of the Dead Sea Scroll community and notes which ones were the same as those teachings accepted by the New Testament writers.

* Common Ownership of Property

* Exorcism. "Allusions to this practice of exorcism are found in some of the writings from Qumran, such as the Genesis Apocryphon where it says, 'so I prayed for him ... and I laid my hands on his head; and the scourge departed from him and the evil spirit was expelled from him' (XX22.29)"

* Teachings on Divorce and Treatment of Enemies. "The scrolls have also been useful in providing valuable background information for ideas hitherto found only in the Gospels. For many years scholars had been baffled by the ban that Yeshua imposed upon divorce and remarriage, for this ruling had not been found in any other Jewish sources. but when works like the Temple Scroll and the Damascus Document came to light, it was soon noticed that members of the Community were similarly forbidden to divorce."

* The Ritual Meal. "Unfortunately, the account given by the Gospels of the so-called Last Supper has clearly been modified for the sake of later theological considerations, so it is difficult to unravel what was actually practised by Yeshua and his followers."

* The Beatitudes (p214). "Even teachings of Yeshua previously thought to be unique, such as the Beatitudes which he enumerates in the course of the Sermon on the Mount, find a parallel among the writings of the Qumran Community." One such work is called The Beatitudes (4QBeat) where a number of virtues are mentioned in a very similar spirit way to how they are in the New Testament. A series of beatitudes are listed which start "Blessed be they who...""

* Eschatological Dualism

* Literary Style and Terminology. "Writers in the Community used the unique pesher method of interpreting older scriptural texts in terms of contemporary events. When doing so, however, they expressed their interpretations in a heavily coded manner. As any student of the New Testament will know, the Christian writers also made liberal use of passages from the Prophets and other biblical books to prove that Yeshua was the Messiah and that everything that befell him was a preordained part of God's plan for the salvation of the world. Overall, the specific texts and the manner in which they were used by both groups to prove their respective claims are very similar, each having strong predilection for the Book of Isaiah"


"Dead Sea Scrolls" by Stephen Hodge, p214:

"Even teachings of Yeshua previously thought to be unique, such as the Beatitudes which he enumerates in the course of the Sermon on the Mount, find a parallel among the writings of the Qumran Community. [...] One such work is called The Beatitudes (4QBeat) where a number of virtues are mentioned in a very similar spirit way to how they are in the New Testament. A series of beatitudes are listed which start "Blessed be they who...""

(Reposted for clarity)

You are viewing vexen