Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
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Paul of Tarsus

Paul of Tarsus by Vexen Crabtree: Debates on Jesus, Mithraism, Gnosticism, Epileptic Fits and Authorship of the Pauline Epistles


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It seems when christians put their faith in their "god" they are really putting their faith in men such as Paul. It is interesting how few people actually take the time to research what they are dedicating their life to. So what does that turn their faith into...ignorance, in my opinion.

Re: Where is the faith?

(Anonymous)
You are the ignorant one. Paul always states that his power comes through God. He admits that he was wrong in persecuting Jesus after he was converted. Have you ever actually studied the letters of Paul and what he meant? Seems to me that you have a lot to learn.

Re: Where is the faith?

Actually, I have. In fact, I have 10 years of bible study under my belt.

In fact, Jesus followers drove him out of Jerusalem because they didn't trust him. He basically had to change his name and called himself enlightened by god. Just because someone says that doesnt mean it is true. How many crazies out there pretend to be prophets of god, or even jesus themselves?

All paul did is change the religion around to make it easier to convert others. He actually thought jesus would return in his lifetime and tried to convert as many people as possible.

If he is so inspired by god than how was he wrong about jesus returning in his lifetime?

You gotta remember, the bible isnt the only book that contains history. You cant base everyinthing you know about a peson just from one source, especially since that source is straight from him.

It seems like you have proved my point, you really are putting a lot of faith in PAUL and what he says is true.

Re: Where is the faith?

Did you read Vexen's essay at all?

Let me give you some documentation on Saul/Paul and his history, i also suggest you read the essay, it is very iformative:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/paul.html

additional infotmation about Paul/Saul:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/pmithra/

http://ragz-international.com/paul.htm

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tarsus.htm



Re: Where is the faith?

(Anonymous)
That is why it is called faith. You choose to believe it or not to. Each person that has been talked about in the bible are all related to one simple belief. Everything that each person has talked about through the bible is all about God. Why have you been studying the bible for 10 years if you disagree with it anyways? What is the purpose and what is in it for you if you completely don't agree with it? It seems like that would help you. Not saying that there is anything wrong with you but I believe that you must be interested or scared if you have put so much effort into this research. What else could it be that has created everything that you experience?

Re: Where is the faith?

(Anonymous)
Like so many others you believe the holy book that you were probaly as a child. So that everyone that doesn't think the same way as you is wrong. Could it be that you are also wrong? Have you tried to find out the truth behind the book or do you just take it as the truth. If you do you are just as ignorant as a new born babe. All religions started with the Hebrews not God, and instead of religion teaching us the good way to live it has only given man an excuse to fight, kill and maim. God expects us to to be happy and learn in our time on this earth. God gave us a brain to think with, to chose right from wrong so it's not God's fault that we all suffer from greed, hate, and all the other vices that seem to go with being human for a while.
This was given to me by my Spiritual Guide.

Re: Where is the faith?

(Anonymous)
Like so many others you believe the holy book that you were probaly taught with as a child. So that everyone that doesn't think the same way as you is wrong. Could it be that you are also wrong? Have you tried to find out the truth behind the book or do you just take it as the truth. If you do you are just as ignorant as a new born babe. All religions started with the Hebrews not God, and instead of religion teaching us the good way to live it has only given man an excuse to fight, kill and maim. God expects us to to be happy and learn in our time on this earth. God gave us a brain to think with, to chose right from wrong so it's not God's fault that we all suffer from greed, hate, and all the other vices that seem to go with being human for a while.
This was given to me by my Spiritual Guide.

Re: Where is the faith?

(Anonymous)
Hmm, I agree. The Hebrews didn't start religion though.

Re: Where is the faith?

(Anonymous)
Ummm... Hello. Lol

None of the Paulines were written by St. Paul, who is not even historical, but a caricature of Simon Magus.
The inauthenticity of all Paulines has been proven thoroughly by Hermann Detering in "Der Gefaelschte Paulus" , and already earlier by Naber, Pierson in Verisimilia, Wilhelmus van Manen, Gustaaf Adolf van den Bergh van Eysinga, Paul0Louis Couchoud.
Some letters were written by Marcion around 140, and fraudulently mutilated by Catholic forgers. Others are genuine work of Catholic forgers not earlier than 150.
Only naive scholars believe in authentic Paulines.

Klaus Schilling

Naivity consists in embracing the most unconventual in order to "prove" intellegence

(Anonymous)
As a historian who happened upon this page while researching for her thesis, I am just a bit perturbed at Mr. Schilling's statement (not to mention the other, unintellegable babbling that do not merit my time to address).
Sir, to state that Paul never existed, nor his epistles authentic is hogwash! Carbon dating has set the Pauline documents as first-century--older than most of the oldest Gospel texts. Moreover, what "proof" you've cited only warrents a scholarly scoffing--there is more proof to the existance of Paul than there is of Aristotle and Plato. Your citations are minimal, for to quote christian and non-christian scholars, alike, who support, nay, prove the "historical Jesus" (not to mention, a "historical Paul--of whom we have the bodily remains of) it would take me more than five pages just to begin.
You, sir, remind me of a quote from the famed journalist and social cynic, G.K. Chesterton: "(This) marks their mood about the whole religious tradition: they are in a state of reaction against it. It is well with the boy when he lives on his father's land; and well with him again when he is far enough from it to look back on it and see it as a whole. But these people have got into an intermediate state, haven fallen into an intervening valley from which they can see neither the heights beyond them nor the heights behind. They cannont get out of the penumbra of Christian controversy. They cannot be Christians and they cannot leave off being Anti-Christians. Their whole atmosphere is the atmosphere of a reaction: sulks, perversity, petty criticism. They still live in the shadow of the faith and have lost the light of the faith."
And again,
"The worst judge of all is the man now most ready with his judgements; the ill-educated Christian turning gradually into the ill-tempered agnostic, entangled in the end of a feud of which he never understood the beginning, blighted with a sort of heretitary boredom with he knows not what, and already weary of hearing what he has never heard."
-("The Everlasting Man", GK Chesterton)

Both of these seem to reflect your attempts at alternative history, more than scholastic efforts. Tuche.

Re: Naivity consists in embracing the most unconventual in order to "prove" intellegence

(Anonymous)
Historian?????? Really!

It appears that you have formulated an opinion prior to doing any research. You have a God-given right not to believe that Jesus is the Messiah or that He even existed, as your essay seems to suggest. You also have a right not to believe in God. But to intimate that Paul made up the Jesus story based on Greek mythology is a thoroughly groundless position. If people want to be agnostics or atheists, they ought to do so only after they've read the Bible and are fully acquainted with the content. I can respect that. FYI: that Jesus existed and worked miracles is not the creation of Paul but of Josephus, a renowned secular historian of the day. Check it out. And the Gospels weren't written 200 years later. Because if they were they would have noted the destruction of Jerusalem--an event as cataclysmic as Babylon.

Josephus made no mention of Jesus, and why do you believe that Josephus made the stories up, and then remained unconverted? It makes even less sense than saying Paul made the stories up, and pretended to convert!

I read in "Why The Jews Rejected Jesus" that Josephus spent more time chronicling a Pagan wrongdoer and his fate than he did saying anything about Christ, and what he did say appeares to be a contrived 'edit' inserted centuries later. Lots of those in the literature, sad to say.

Most of the stuff in the canonical Gospels were written 20 to 70 years after Christ died or vanished. No eyewitness works are in the canonical Gospels. Makes you wonder.

Faith

(Anonymous)
I feel bad for people who need to read every single word written about christianity in order to believe it. Because in the end it would be a lost cause for those people because no matter what they read they won't beleive it anyway. What makes any piece of writting credible? NOTHING.. It all comes down to you're faith, but when judgement day comes, and it will come to everyone, don't tell the One judging that you weren't given a fair chance.

Re: Faith

(Anonymous)
FaithJan. 7th, 2006|06:17 am
Anonymous

I feel bad for people who need to read every single word written about christianity in order to believe it.

And I feel bad for stupid people who have to live in ignorance to be happy. In the words of Vexen, "ignorance could never be bliss if doubt reigned." http://www.dpjs.co.uk/doubt.html Doubt is necessary in moving forward. Otherwise we stagnate in what we were inculcated with as children or things we've made ourselves believe merely to ease our minds.

Because in the end it would be a lost cause for those people because no matter what they read they won't beleive it anyway. No, that's not true. Lot's of people lie to themselves the entire way through, denying every blatant contradiction in the Bible after the other just to convince themselves that it's the word of the Almighty. I've known more people like that than I would have liked to. It's so sad and scary to watch.

It all comes down to you're faith, but when judgement day comes, and it will come to everyone, don't tell the One judging that you weren't given a fair chance. It's comments like this that make it appear that the non-existent hell is filled with intelligent people who chose to question things in life, instead of running with the mindless herd, while heaven is filled with sheepish morons who spent life following absurdity. As for your judgement (MYTH/LIE) of Fire of Sulphur that is so esential for the Church to have people believe in, here's a link for you: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/hell.html
If it wasn't for the fabricated fear-tactics of hell and the devil Christianity and Islam would have been mere footnotes in history. There are people who haven't seen a telephone let alone a missionary (thank God!). But I'm sure you're hell is full of innocent men, women, and children. There are no fair chances in Christianity. "If you want to get your soul to heaven trust in me now don't you judge or question, you are broken now but faith can heal you, just do everything I tell you to do." -- Tool -Opiate-

Sheepish morons?

(Anonymous)
Sir,
Sheepish morons? Come now, there are childeren, even today, in the Sudan who are being crucified and left to die in the desert for believing in Jesus...not to mention the ages of martyrs before them--I do not count anyone willing to die such deaths as sheepish morons...YOUR comfortable western lifestyle of materialism may contradict such a claim as mine...but I think not...
Your statement on knowledge, and of questioning is valid. Unfortunatly, if you don't believe in Truth (as did Aristotle, Plato...)then you've made the great error of self-contradiction (for why seek knowledge if it is for nothing?) or, worse, you've made yourself into an all-knowing god...interesting how materialism works--one can do all one can to increase lifespan, pleasure, etc. but in the end, you die--which means you are mortal...you have a beginning and a definate end. Yet, according to Aristotle, if this be so, there must be one that DOES NOT have a beginning, nor an end...an "Uncaused Cause".
Belive it or not--man's gift is an intelligent soul and his use of free will.
I, for one, see that all we know we must credit, historically, to the Church which preserved language, culture and the liberal arts after the fall of Rome and the dark-ages filled with strife and plague. All science and philosophy must be attributed back to this historical preservation...superstition comes from ignorance and the ill-educated.
"FAIR CHANCES" are what those which are given to us, every day, to act upon our intellect and with free will...true freedom is "the Freedom to CHOOSE the Good"...a choice built on morals as well as intellect, but which comes down to free will.
It is only those who embrace the totalitarian, puritanical "sola scriptura" who take the place of condemnation of souls...actions can be judged, quite simply--the stoics did so, not only Christians--the Hindus do, the Buddhists do...actions can be evil, such as murder--or good, such as sex and the gift of life. Moderation and self-control seperate man from animal...and these are included in a group known as "Virtues".

I do believe you have much to learn about life, but you recognize the disorder in those who intimidate into faith--Faith must be a free-willed act of Love.

Re: Faith

(Anonymous)
That's a good point. (all history is liable to fault) Though I'm pretty confidant there is much forgery in the bible as a result of mistranslations and tampering. Besides that though you said "don't tell the One judging that you weren't given a fair chance". If you weren't given the faith to believe, than you weren't given a fair chance. Fairness means everyone is equal, but since everyone is different, fairness is non-existent in that sense. Forgiveness is the only fair thing about judge meant day. I don't believe God would want you to just believe what is written for the sake of it, in fact that would be pretty ridiculous since there isn't one religion "preaching the word" Unless Jesus or Muhammad or whoever comes to Earth in every generation, no one can know anything. What is faith? What makes one faithful. If the written word is reliable, what do people have to go on? Why should someone believe in God or Jesus? This is why I believe it best for all to find God in their selves, using the tools for they have been given from above. Maybe they will never find truth, the important part is that they tried. They didn't choose to live, or choose the traits they'd have as people. If a creator did, I'm pretty sure that creator knows exactly what it's doing, and exactly what its creation will do. I have hope that all souls find their way home.

Actually... he did

(Anonymous)
Actually, Josephus *did* make mention of Jesus, his miracles, and his teachings on eternity, heaven and hell. I know that for a fact because I own a copy of his history/antiquties, and he goes into quite a bit of detail. There are several volumes of the "Antiquities of the Jews" etc... but I have his complete works ... and yes, Jesus is mentioned.

As for why he didn't believe at the time... who's to say that after writing it all down he didn't? It's very possible he did become a believer. It seems to me it would be pretty dumb on his part to witness all that... and still just refuse to believe. From reading the account he wrote, he didn't write as someone who was a skeptic. He wrote as someone who believed what he was recording for history.

You can read it for yourself, just purchase a complete copy of the works of Josephus. His work is written in several volumes, and sometimes the volumes are sold separately, so you need to make sure it's the whole enchilada, so to speak. I can get you the ISBN number from my copy if you need it, if you can't find it anywhere. I bought mine off of ebay.

Chenoa

The Gospels wouldn't have necessarily noted the destruction of Jerusalem. In the book Cracking the Symbol Code by Tim Wallace-Murphy, it is suggested that Paul himself was actually part of the destruction of Rome. The canon gospels where not originals, but re copied text over a long period of time. There are other gospels besides them that tell slightly different stories. I have read the bible and was forcibly a practicing catholic for about 5 years. I am not Catholic now, but I do believe in Jesus (as a human Messiah). The miracles could be true since I believe Jesus was born Essene, and the Essenes where known to practice a spiritual form of alchemy. I also think it is possible that they where symbolic. Jesus could have healed the sick and cured the leapers with his word. He could have made the blind see and walk on water (water symbolic of lower instinct which he conquered)Of course I have to ask if he brought one dead back to life, why not others. (where is the fairness in that) Anyhow it is possible that even the books of Josephus are unreliable since they have even been tampered, and have more than just his work but not all the New Testament adds up with is writings. For instance he makes no mention of the slaughtering of Jewish babies by Herod. I think he'd mention an event like that. I'm curious to know how if Josephus writes on the destruction of Jerusalem and Paul must have written his gospels before this, how Josephus could have created the stories of Jesus and his miracles. Josephus lived through the destruction? but the Gospels make no mention o fit and where not the creators of the stories of miracles?

Curious to know...

(Anonymous)
Hi. Your site makes for some very interesting reading, thanks. I did wonder though... in response to this statement:

Dionysios: 8th century BC
Like Jesus he is the son of a god (Zeus) and a mortal woman, like Jesus he was a healer, like Jesus he turned water into wine (the marriage at Kana) and was a mortal and resurrected god.


I have spent the last hour trying to verify this through search engines. So far these people seem to be the only ones that have this information, and it seems this would be easy to find on other sites, but I have not seen it anywhere else, except where others are questioning it as well in one message forum I came across. I would like to know some additional references besides Freke and Grundy where I can find this, or perhaps what their reference source was, if you could help me with that, as you seem more familiar with it than I am. I have seen no mention of any of the above quoted information, anywhere on the internet. All I have found is that he was a Greek god of wine and intoxication... but nothing where he changed water into wine, nor where he was a healer, nor where he was a mortal and then resurrected god. Not trying to be mean at all, just would like to know some other references where I can second opinion this - it seems there should be plenty of references to verify something of this magnitude all over the internet, such as other writings, other reference sites, etc... something to back it up besides just what these two people say... but I have not found anything. I am also getting ready to look up the other references as well to see what all I can find, regarding the various other Roman/Greek myths.

Thanks! Feel free to write me back at Chenoas333@aol.com if you would like, otherwise I can just check back here.

Re: Now you know...

(Anonymous)
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus Wikipedia. :o) And it didn't take me an hour either. I googled Dionysus and it was the second link that came up in the search. Look under Parallels with Christianity.

Re: Curious to know...

(Anonymous)
Check wikipedia. There should be a either Jesus and Dionysus or Christianity and Dionysus. make sure it's spelled that way cause you spelled it wrong up there. Wikipedia has links for the information. You can also check to the book Cracking the Symbol Code where various comparisons are drawn between Roman Catholicism and Pagan tradition (including Mithra)

Stoicism in Christianity

(Anonymous)
You know what I'd like to see? A Vexen page linked to this one about how the morality of the New Testament is contrived from Stoic Philosophy which was the primary philosophy of Tarsus. The Stoic School itself was founded in 322BCE. It is a philosophy of asceticism, repression of emotions and desires (ex. anger, lust, pride, ambition, passion, etc; all condemned by Paul), and of course, good will towards men. :) Sound familiar? Well it should because it's the foundations of Christianity, using the last part to make it seem wholesome. Stoic Philosophy is what Paul and the early Church used as their worm of sin to infect and control mankind with its guilt-ridden rape of conscience.

You could also do a page on the influence of Philo – logos - and, of course, Plato on Christianity. One only has to read the Republic to see the obviousness of it. Christian theology is pretty much plagiarism of mental warfare.

Re: Stoicism in Christianity

(Anonymous)
Interestingly, enough, my thesis is regarding this topic of Stoic philosophy and the Epistles.

Granted, you cited only Stoic Pietas, not the entirety of stoicism, which is QUITE different from Christianity regarding science, etc.

Stoic Pietas was grounded within the Roman Culture (and thus colonies such as Tarsus) esp. through the legion. Cicero really established this way of thinking--esp. about the virtues--and Seneca continued through the life of Paul of Tarsus. Tarsus, itself, was a stoic epicentre...one must believe that all citizens of Rome were indocternated with such ideals, for Rome sought to spread Roman culture. Paul was a Roman citizen....grace being built on nature, I plan to prove Paul built upon the good virtues of Stoicism, but softened them with the truth of Grace and Love...bringing his first, hardnosed approach to yeild, later on, to a Fatherly concern for his flock.

Re: Stoicism in Christianity

(Anonymous)
"Good virtues of Stoicism," you say? Ha! To me "Stoic virtue" is an oxymoron; as their philosophy was completely antinature and self-deceit. And as for the infamous “good will towards men,” well, some men simply do not deserve “good will” as they send out only the opposite. And, at any rate, I see nothing virtuous about making a duty out of life.
Though, your thesis sounds quite interesting.

Paul's Documents

(Anonymous)
Paul's anti-Gnostic Pastoral letters are fakes, forged in the late second century. In the genuine letters Paul is not anti-Gnostic and never mentions an historical Jesus

Is that to say that ALL of "Paul's" letters in the New Testament are fakes or only some? And if so, which ones? And who has the real ones for that matter? And how did THESE people get a hold of them? I would LOVE to read the real ones. That's monumental!

life experience

(Anonymous)
hi, l went over your writings and being a christian by choice, l'd like to throw few comments:

first, when attacking Christianity, first thing you should do is read and understand and know the Lord of Christianity-Lord Jesus Christ!! after all we are Christians as Paul was and not"Paul-ians"- with total respect to Paul's writings that are part of the Bible and therefore inspired by God.

second,being EPILEPTIC myself, and l know more than all neurologists of the world what seizures are and how it really feels during and after the seizure, hallucinations has nothing to do with it!! l wish it was the case--at least l would have some nice dreams when through it. Instead during a seizure you feel like you are in a very deep sleep and you don't realise what happens to you until you wake up and are notified by people around you that you were unconcious!! therefore what Paul experienced is not a seizure!! it's somethig divine that changed the course of his life 180 degrees!! A seizure doesn't do that, nor anything else does,but the touch of God!

third, l don't think it's reasonable to suggest an agreement that goes:"well, what you have experienced is wrong! and l can change what you have experienced with some hypotheses." There are people who Experienced the life of Christ throughout history and still millions around the globe in our times share testimonies of Christ's love and salvation, and l'm one of them. l have exprienced Jesus myself and that's a fact that no science can change whatsoever.

l pray that you yourself would discover the love of Jesus Christ and the peace and joy that escort your life due to His presence.





Women And The New Covenant Of Christ l

(Anonymous)
InvitationToVisit:

http://christian-newcovenant.angelcities.com/index.html

Freedom Under The New Covenant of Christ -
The liberation of Women, Class Distinction and Religious Authoritarianism

Hahahaa!!

(Anonymous)
I love how much of this so-called "essay" is based on assumption presented as fact. And your sources are obviously, heavliy biased bullshit. A strawman argument if I've ever seen one.

I'm not even going to argue, because I'd have to write articles for each sentence you wrote in your article. I would have written an book by the time I was done, picking apart every letter in each word.

yyOKeTehOdAVUsIxgtphxp

(Anonymous)
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