2005

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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2005
vexen

Refuting Monotheism

Refuting Monotheism: There is no God


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A topic for you Vexen.

(Anonymous)

2005-02-07 09:43 am (UTC)

Perhaps you would like a change in pace, I see your logic ties in with a lot of philosophy background and other areas of knowledge. (In this way I get a better view of your thoughts and thought process) Try refuting my argument.

Here it is:
Moral Monotheism (MM) holds 3 main principles to be true.
A. Which actions are right is not arbitrary, but objectively valid.
B. There is exactly one God, who is the ultimate moral authority.
C. An action is right if, and only if, God commands us to perform it.
(I understand that this principle seem a bit harsh, but the way in which God commands is too wide of a topic, just say for now that he does in mysterious ways.)

My argument against it is:
1. Either (i) an action is right because God commands it, or (ii) God commands an action because it is right.
2. If (i), then what is right is arbitrary.
3. But if what is right is arbitrary, then MM must be rejected.
4. If (ii), then there is a higher authority than God.
5. But if there is a higher authority than God, then MM must be rejected.

Conclusion: MM must be rejected because it is false.

Please try refuting this as it will definitely get you thinking harder than before. (Note that I only read the articles that you wrote about religion and sub-subjects, and please excuse the lack of siting for my documentation as this is just to see how you think, I may have to recruit you for a bigger purpose yet.)

Thanks in advance,
Intermittent reader.

Your site is linked

(Anonymous)

2005-02-28 10:50 pm (UTC)

Greetings ! I could not find your email. I wanted to tell you that I have linked to your article "There is no God" from the references page at strongatheism.com. You can see it here :

http://www.strongatheism.com/references.html

Linkback is not needed but would be nice.

GOD IS NEUTRAL

(Anonymous)

2005-03-01 01:41 am (UTC)

I consider myself a Christian, but I do like your website. I used to belong to some fundamentalist types of Christian groups, and I must say if you disagree with them about anything they certainly don't treat you with any respect. However, I've also known alot of irreligious or atheistic people who are also assholes. Anyways, I think that God is neutral because 1. If he was all evil why would he make the most necessary things of our existence pleasurable. For instance, we all must eat and drink and reproduce. Each of these things causes pleasure (we don't generally just do them because we have to). If God was truly evil, wouldn't he make the most necessary and repetitive processes the most painful ones? What I think, therefore, is that God cannot be all evil. He has created Pain, yes, but he has also created PLEASURE. He would only allow Pain if he was completely evil. Furthermore, there may be a greater reality that exists after our death where there is no pain.
One could argue that you could really not fully appreciate pleasure without pain. For instance, if you work outside all day, it hurts, but when you drink that cold beverage when you come inside it causes pleasure 10 times greater than if you had just sat on your ass all day. I think you neglect to mention the PLEASUREFUL aspects of our world when you suggest God must be EVIL.

Re: GOD IS NEUTRAL

vexen

2005-03-03 06:58 pm (UTC)

You have a good thinking mind, I don't disagree with the direction of your thoughts at all.

Re: GOD IS NEUTRAL (Anonymous) Expand

I THINK SOMETHING DID CREATE THE UNIVERSE

(Anonymous)

2005-03-01 01:56 am (UTC)

Vexen,
You made some argument about how God and the universe had to come into existence at the same time or that God couldn't come before the universe. I think this is wrong. Before the universe was created there was no space or time. However, we know that the universe had to come from something, so it seems that the only alternative is that there must be a being that existed before time and space that is not confined by those aspects of our reality that brought what currently exists into being. Also, the universe is not infinite. I believe it is something like 56 trillion, trillion, trillion light years, but it is not infinite. Also, the universe will not last forever. The prevailing view now is called the "BIG CHILL" which says that in about 15 trillion years there will be no stars left only cold isolated debris and it will just sit there dead forever. Also, the big bang theory is the predominant view on how the universe came to exist, and it does require a creational type of event. So I think there must have been something beyond space and time that existed that caused this universe to exist. Perhaps that being or thing is God and lives in another universe that does not have the properties that this one has - perhaps there is no death there. Perhaps we have a soul and go to this place.

Re: I THINK SOMETHING DID CREATE THE UNIVERSE

vexen

2005-03-03 07:02 pm (UTC)

The most advanced scientists do not believe that a singularity is required for the big bang. For an easy read (which I recomment to *everyone* including others who also study quantum physics, astronomy, science, philosophy etc), try "A brief history of time" by Hawkings.

The "Big Chill" theory, I wrote about in 1998 and called in "Death by Cold", this is not an "end of the universe" event, but a time when particles and objects are so far removed, and entropy so advanced, that everything slows down and very little actually happens. This isn't the end, just a perpetual state of heavy silence, punctured by occasional events.

This is only the case if the expansion of the universe is not halted by the average mass of the universe; i.e., if there is not enough mass in the universe, Death by Cold will occur. If there is too much, a Big Crunch will occur as the universe collapses in on itself in a way similar to big bang (but fundamentally still different to it). Hawking talks about the Big Crunch in the book I mentioned; but he doesn't mention death by cold much.

where is the proof.?

(Anonymous)

2005-03-07 10:56 am (UTC)

If you do not believe God exists. How do you argue he has no free will.? God is omnipotent in that his power is endless and he is in all places at all times.So a God with free will but who has also very special qualities about his person. Righteous,truthful, loving and forgiving. And he shows Justice. If you look at the person God as portrayed in the faith of Abraham right to those with faith in Christ. You will see that Gods person means that he is a god who does what is right.A god who does not need a man to believe that he exists, but the evidence of him is all around us.
Since neither man or science has been able to refute that God created the world with any positive proof.

How can evil or suffering contradict a loving and righteous gods existence? Surely the fact the serpent deliberately showed lack of care for Adam and Eve by lying about God to them, shows that such evil exists. And that to lie about God proves the serpent(satan) is as ever present today. That man always has a choice. As this web site proves. If you put your hand in a fire you get it burnt. God has warned us about Satan but do we listen? So why be surprised if bad things continue to happen. God did not excuse the wrong Adam and Eve did. He knew the PRICE of sin was death. Satan caused man to fall so instead of letting all men die. The Lord sent his son to pay the penalty, justifying the law and setting men free. The pardon was brought with a high price. It was not given away.So it shows God is not just a righteous God but he is a god who does what is right.And one day everything evil and harmful will be removed forever.

There is a lot of suppositions. Ghosts and the like are called supernatural. Supernatural means something which cannot be proved by normal scientific laws. Therefore what you say is a theory based on a mans idea of what causes these beings. Even when tribes undiscovered in previous history are found in the jungles and rain forests. They believe in God though they have had not touch with the outside world. They also know about the flood of the whole earth.
The reason being men have never forgot the time when god walked in the midst of us. And it has been passed down just as the flood was.

Whilst you essays attack God, they do not prove he does not exist.
What was happening to Moses when he spoke to God? The faith of the Jew does not rely alone on the power of the brain or need to exist.
What about these men who spoke to God in person? Did Abraham imagine it. If no two people can perceive or experience the same event how do you account for contradictory or evidential accounts of the same thing in the bible written by different people?

Surely Lot and his whole family saw the angels that led them out.
What about the angels and the shepherds. Did they not all tell the same version of events. Did the three synoptic gospels not relate the same event by three different eye-witnesses. All basically say the same yet written at different times by different people who were there.

The serpent like in the times of Adam and Eve, has one purpose left. To deceive people into believing the worst of a very loving true God. A love shown clearly in the actions of those who believe in him and know him. A God who,s only wish is to give us the best and provide as he did at the beginning. What will you achieve if you could stop people believing? What kind of anarchy and destruction would be brought on the earth and among people.
Mans own history when left to his own devices proves him capable of being power mad and blood thirsty. Satan would love this.
Bad things happen on earth because men refused as Adam and Eve did to listen to God. If we all believed and trusted in God. Besides natural disasters there would be no evil or wrong doing. Plus because we were living gods way the natural disasters would not occur for we would be treating the earth properly. Food for thought. What hope does you belief bring you?

Lynne.



Re: where is the proof.?

vampire_logos

2005-06-05 09:18 am (UTC)


[[“If you do not believe God exists. How do you argue he has no free will.?”]]

You almost have the idea of the “If-Then” conditional down with that...uh...statement(s).

“IF this condition exists and we use valid inference, THEN this will be the conclusion”.

If you are standing on the Golden Gate Bridge and drop a rock over the side, it will fall.

The truth or falsity of that statement has nothing to do with whether you are actually going to drop a rock over the side of the Golden Gate Bridge.


[[God is omnipotent in that his power is endless and he is in all places at all times.So a God with free will but who has also very special qualities about his person. Righteous,truthful, loving and forgiving. And he shows Justice. If you look at the person God as portrayed in the faith of Abraham right to those with faith in Christ. You will see that Gods person means that he is a god who does what is right.]]

No offence, but this is more rhetoric than reasoning.

[[A god who does not need a man to believe that he exists, but the evidence of him is all around us.]]

No, sorry. Only existing things can produce evidence of its existence. The nonexistent do not produce evidence of its existence. So, before you can call a tree “evidence”, you must first prove true your premise (because anything derived from a false premise must be irrelevant).

Since logical entailment “flows” from known true premise to previously unknown conclusion, then your premise must be a “creator ‘god’”.

In other words, it is invalid for you to call a tree “evidence of ‘god’” until you first prove that there is a creator ‘god’.

In short, show me ‘god’ or all bets are off. That doesn’t mean show me “scripture” i.e. written oral tradition testimony from other people (testament) and it doesn’t mean to ask me how I manage to explain single cell organisms without the goblin king producing it for me. It means for YOU to show ME ‘god’. If you can put your hands together and wish really hard for something to happen and it can divinely intervene in our physical universe and make changes to it, then this should be detectable via the physical sciences, either directly or statistically. Therefore the personal ‘god’ of the bible is scientifically provable.

Show me ‘god’.

[[How can evil or suffering contradict a loving and righteous gods existence?]]

As a corollary example.
A ‘god’ who tells Moses to give a terrorists ultimatum to the Pharaoh
AND THEN this ‘god’ hardens the heart of this Pharaoh so that he will not comply with this ultimatum, AND THEN as “punishment” for not meeting this ultimatum this ‘god’ proceeds to kill all the first born of the Egyptians, including the new born babies and cattle, then this definitively CANNOT be a “loving and benevolent” ‘god’. This story describes an evil ‘god’.

[[Surely the fact the serpent deliberately showed lack of care for Adam and Eve by lying about God to them, shows that such evil exists.]]


In the story you refer to, ‘god’ lied and the serpent told the truth.

Here’s a step by step breakdown along with Hebrew transcription at my website.

http://www.thailoversdomain.com/how_not_be_a_christian5.html

In that story, “the woman” (that no one had bothered to give a name to) had to decide who was lying to her, the serpent or ‘god’. She exercised freewill, which with the context of Pauline Christianity was the “original sin” of not being a “slave to ‘god’” ala Romans 6:19-23

In a nutshell, according to Pauline Christianity, freewill is an evil deviation from ‘god’s’ will; “wisdom” is foolish and Christianity is foolish and therefore wise (1 Cor 1:21); and believers profit from worshiping the torture and human sacrifice of Jesus.

Would you describe this as good or evil?

[[And that to lie about God proves the serpent(satan) is as ever present today.]]


The “lie” is to suggest that the ‘god’ described in the Jewish bible (OT) is not evil and designed to create fear, hence ‘fear of ‘god’’ and thus capitulation. Remember, you are supposed to “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling” (Psalms 2:11).

:-)


The Vampire
LOGOS



Re: where is the proof.? (Anonymous) Expand

Experience is always greater than logic

(Anonymous)

2005-03-13 06:15 pm (UTC)

I randomly came across your site when looking for information on religion for a French presentation and it really interested me. I am a Christian, have grown up in a Christian family, but at some point made a decision to believe in God for myself. I admire your attempts to disprove God using logic, but at the end of the day, logic will never (well, hardly ever) convince anyone of the existence or lack of existence of God. The only way you can really be convinced of His existence is through experiencing Him for yourself. I have experienced God, not in any huge ways, or through things that would convince another person to believe in Him, but I know in my heart He's real. This may seem shortsighted to you, but consider, if God does not exist, then I may be wasting time believing in Him, but my beliefs have helped make me a better person. And if God does exist, then I have gained eternal salvation. Whereas you have maybe gained what you see as a freer life in the now, but have doomed yourself to a lost eternity. I know which of us I believe is taking the bigger risk.

Re: Experience is always greater than logic

vampire_logos

2005-06-04 10:35 am (UTC)

Re: Experience is always greater than logic


No it isn’t.

If it is logically impossible for all red and all blue three-cornered squares to exist, then this trumps any “experience” where you think you might have experienced one.

Why?

Because we KNOW that our experiences can be wrong. We have counterintuitive experiences all the time. Some one can experience sleep paralysis...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

...and think instead that we were visited by space aliens with an anal probe fetish, or that we had a demon or succubus sitting on our chest sucking out our life-force or were visited by a vampire doing the same but at the end of the day, we KNOW that sleep paralysis is a FACT and even reproducible, but we don’t know that visiting space aliens doing surgeries that leave no scars, or demons or vampires are even possible at all, and as such hold no argumentative weight.



Oh...and your argument near the end of your post...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager


LOGOS



Proof of God

(Anonymous)

2005-03-14 05:57 pm (UTC)

God exists because it is scientifically proven that God exists. We agree that there is only order and chaos, no? Atheists believe that the universe was created through chaos no? The big bang? Then God must be order no? A planner, designer... basically a God who installs order to the universe? It is scientifucally proven that the chances of the solar system being created through chaos is something like 0.000000 etc and at the end stick a "1". Therefore, if this is chaos, then the chances of order (Ie God) creating the soalar system is 99.999999 etc. And thats just the solar system. What about the whole universe? A much larger, more complex structure and balance of intricate systems and energies? The chances for God creating the universe must be much closer to 100% than in the solar system example. So that means my belief in a God must be 99.99999999999999...% right, and the chances that Vexen is right must be 0.000000000...1% ^_^ gotcha

Read "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking if you want to understand the present science of the big questions.

You talk about Chaos but don't seem to understand chaos theory... massive numbers of chaotic events can conspire to create ordered and self-regulating systems; just look at the evolution of crystals from random chemical interactions. No "planner" is required.

The solar system didn't spontaneously appear, it developed over time. The chance of it developing is 1. 100%. It happened as a working out of the chaotic, unplanned laws of nature.

If you apply your statistical shenanigans to your own God, you'll find that the chance of it existing are equally small - the chance of *anything* is as small if you consider the present to be a sudden, random occurance and not a development from the past.

"Gotcha."

No God and Points of View

(Anonymous)

2005-04-12 06:49 pm (UTC)

To be honest our minds are a powerful instrument and we know from science that people can be mislead and be passionate about something which isn't real i.e. religion and that fast food is good for you :). The concept of intellectuals arguing on concepts like 'is there a afterlife', 'is there a God' or 'even will I go to hell or heaven' is to a point redundant because in this vast world we can make ourselves believe a whole host of things even if they are true or not. To find out if there is a God I suggest we go search for God (and make sure we find the right one or ones), to see if there is or isn't a afterlife then you must go on a quest to truely answer you questions.
My point is is that logic is flawed and so the only way forward is to quest for answer like our ancestors did like the Shamans and use our minds to consider the infinite and then let your quest for truth begin with your whole self and not just your brain.

Ramlar

suffering therefore no god

(Anonymous)

2005-04-22 05:05 pm (UTC)

The difference between man and God is that God is fully aware of man's spiritual reality in addition to his physical reality. God knows that physical suffering cannot harm our eternal souls. God knows that our physical destruction is not an end to our existence. Of what significance is an hour of physical suffering compared to eternity? Of what significance is a lifetime of suffering compared to eternity? We can conclude that from God's perspective, our physical suffering is relatively insignificant. This is not to say that He is unsympathetic or oblivious to our pain; loving parents feel empathy when their child receives a shot, knowing full well that the pain is inconsequential.

http://www.ex-atheist.com/suffering.html

Re: suffering therefore no god

vexen

2005-04-22 09:27 pm (UTC)

Your analogy is a bit too simple... if the parents care about the child's future, know the pain is "inconsequential" and don't want to the child to suffer (hence they give it a shot to prevent later suffering)... then... why did the parents create disease and illness in the first place? (Given that the parents are God). Why would a parent create disease, and then give a painful shot under the pretence that it's for the child's own good... when in fact the disease is the parents creation to start off with!

That's like pushing someone off a cliff, then saving them and trying to gain credit for it! More like a set-up than the action of someone who cares!

to me it sounds like some one is a messagener of Lucifer

(Anonymous)

2005-05-02 02:43 am (UTC)

the thought while reading the post of vixen. He seems very flaw to me in the first place talking about satanist which is admitting God existences. His message is a futile attempt to reason something he can not even grasp because the False Doctrine is being taught to his mind and spirit and he doesn't even realize it. And buddy Boy when this little life you live is over guess what no one will care about your little free will speeches and the OTHERS there in Hell will not care a bit either. your little fruitless attempts Will not matter to me or others that go to heaven So preach preach away if u like exercising your free will cause in the end it will not matter unless you decide your future existences.

Re: to me it sounds like some one is a messagener of Lucifer

vampire_logos

2005-06-04 10:00 am (UTC)

“to me it sounds like some one is a messagener of Lucifer”


“Lucifer” who?

Lucifer isn’t Satan (or even the Jewish ha-satan).

“Lucifer” is a loose derivation for the Latin for ‘bringer of light’. The ‘bringer of light’ is the ‘prince of darkness’?

No.

St. Jerome, when he wrote the bulk of the Latin Vulgate screwed this up.

The “morning star” noted in the Isaiah passage (the only reference to Lucifer in the bible) is also called “the morning star” or “day star”. This is referenced to Jesus in several parts of the bible, not Satan.

Of course, you COULD be writing about Azayzel. Azayzel was blamed for the angels that left heaven of their own volition and mated with moral earth women because they looked down on them and they were ‘so fine’. This is referenced in both Genesis and 1 Enoch. 1 Enoch explains further that Azayzel (who’s heinous crimes against ‘god’ were, among other things, bringing knowledge of paint and eye-shadow to earthlings) was chained up and cast into a bottomless pit in a desert and will be let out of the abyss at the apocalypse. This is the same Azayzel that Moses sent his scapegoat to. This story is a mythological archetype in the ancient Mesopotamian region and has been tacked onto Azayzel, Satan and even Loki of The Mask movie fame. The reference in chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation talked about a great battle in heaven with the fall of Satan and 1/3 of the angels being tossed out with Satan and all of that, but this is supposed to happen at Jesus’ second coming, not in prehistory. Working within the myth, Satan has not been cast out of heaven yet and can come and go freely as he did in the book of Job as one of ‘god’s’ sons.


The Vampire
LOGOS

There was no creation AND God is still there

(Anonymous)

2005-05-09 01:12 pm (UTC)

Who was created first the chicken or the egg?
“The problem of the origin of the universe is a bit like the old question: Which came first, the chicken, or the egg.” - Stephen Hawkins
Philosophers and Scientists treat this question as a conundrum. The belief is that the “Time arrow” is a “straight line”; from a nebulous beginning to an uncertain future. This question is answered if we consider time as being curved, a circle. Then, around this circular time there is always a chicken before an egg and an egg before a chicken. Time is cyclical and predestined. Past, present and future are relative to a point of reference (Einstein). There is no creation, things always existed but changed. “Matter is not created nor destroyed, it only changes”. This is called eternity. There is neither beginning nor end in eternity.

Evolutionists and Creationists cannot explain the “beginning” in a rational way, some believe in a “supernatural beginning” which is not consistent with the first law of conservation of energy. Some others talk about a big explosion, not realizing that something had to cause it. The law of “cause and effect” cannot be ignored or used only when convenient. If matter cannot be created the logical solution is that matter always existed. This logical solution is fully consistent with the cyclical model of time which is well known by Eastern cultures, which by the way; are the oldest cultures in the world (with quite a bit of wisdom and knowledge as we in the west are finding out).
The three aspects of time; past, present and future must be present in any reasonable explanation of time. Time being movement from being to becoming cannot be linear, cannot be a “straight line”. When we think about a “beginning” we are not following this logical thought.
The western world has chosen to ignore this view and rather follow contradictory beliefs. God is in the realm of the unlimited. God being beyond physical matter does not deal with matter at all. God is an incorporeal entity, a soul, just like we, humans are souls with a bodily experience, even though we may believe that we are bodies.

It is quite impressive that in this age of technology and knowledge of how matter operates, we still believe in traditions and contradictory ideas which logic and reasoning can solve. It is a wonder how we aren’t open minded to knowledge but instead choose the more convenient and traditional ideas even though irrational.

avyakt7@yahoo.com

Re: There was no creation AND God is still there

vexen

2005-05-09 02:31 pm (UTC)

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/faith.html lists many of the same assumptions of "faith" that atheists and theists both make regarding things like first cause, time, etc.

good job you are so right thank you for putting it in words that explain it so well

First, I would like to say that I enjoy your site and it is refreshing to see logical thinking for a change as it’s a rare commodity as I’m sure you know.


Morality:

Pauline Christianity dictates that Eve choosing who was lying to her, either ‘god’ or the serpent (freewill deviation from mindless “slavery” to ‘god’ ala Romans 6), was “original sin” (even if it was Turtillian who coined the phrase).

Morality necessitates moral choice. Moral choice necessitates knowledge of good and evil.

The idea that the acquisition of the ability to make moral choice is itself immoral is logically absurd. A dictatorial creator ‘god’ would impede our ability to freely make said moral choices and therefore would be an immoral influence on its creation. The only “moral” omnipotent ‘god’ would be one that appeared to not exist at all because the prospect of the contrary would be infinitely intimidating and frightening. Therefore IF an omnipotent moral ‘god’ existed, it would appear in every way to be equivalent to not existing, therefore it’s existence would be meaningless and absolutely equivalent in every way discernible to not existing at all.


The Vampire
LOGOS

'god' (biblical Yahweh) has no morals

vampire_logos

2005-06-05 08:08 am (UTC)

I’ll temporarily ignore the biblical accounts of the pure evil of Yahweh and get right down to the alleged properties of this ‘god’ and how ‘he’ could not be moral.

Yahweh is described as omnipotent (I’ll also temporarily ignore the question of ‘can “omnipotent” ‘god’ nuke a burrito so hot that he can’t eat it’).

An omnipotent being would have no desires unfulfilled. It would not ‘want’ for anything. It would be indestructible and ageless. Nothing would aid it or harm it. Nothing could be a positive to it or a negative to it. Therefore it could have no values. A “value” is something you value for a reason. It would not want for anything at all, so ‘a’ would not be more of a “value” to it than ‘b’, therefore NOTHING would be a value to it at all as opposed to it not being a value to it. Without values, there would be no morals. “Good” and “Evil” would be meaningless to it because nothing could be “good” to it or “bad” to it. “Good or bad” in reference to what? Normally, good and evil are in reference to our lives and the things we value, but to an indestructible everlasting being that “would not want”, these concepts would be meaningless and it could not be moral.


The Vampire
LOGOS



Re: 'god' (biblical Yahweh) has no morals

vexen

2005-06-05 07:20 pm (UTC)

Well said. It's a pleasure to have your on the various topics you've posted on!

Those who attempt to disprove God logically will succeed within the limited boundaries of their own mind. Those who choose to accept God without logical explanation will succeed positively in mind, body and soul.

Hard evidence that the Bible is true...

(Anonymous)

2005-06-23 11:09 pm (UTC)

and god! Vexen have you ever read the last book of the Bible, the Book of Revelation, about the anti-christ and 666 mark that everyone is forced to have it...and that there will be complete chaos, i think you allready know that story. I would advise you to read and study it carefully. I am quite sure in about 20 to 40 years time, you will see that those prophecies will come true! Because we allready live in the end times. Even today so many prophecies have been fullfield that have been written in Bible!!! Very soon you will see that all "true" christians will suddenly disappear from this earth, only many cahtholics sadly will be left behind, because their church is evil, especially the pope. The whole world will then realise that the anti-christ is a very very bad person and the false prophet(Pope). Mark my words...you may be smiling write now...hehe...but one day you will be shocked and surprised and the truth you will know. just to give you a warning...when the time comes...DO ACCEPT THE MARK 666, EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DIE, otherwise you will go to hell!!! I hope you recognize Jeus as a saviour soon, otherwise you will regret it that you why didn't believe for the rest of your life in eternity. In hell you suffer in pain for ever and ever! Trust me i not talking shit!

i randomly found this...

(Anonymous)

2005-06-29 09:38 pm (UTC)

i think it's really good that you're trying to find out stuff about god and your idea and opinion of it all.. But i know some atheists that have some really good points, and they do because they've looked at both sides of the arguement, which i don't think you do ( maybe you could have a better arguement then!!)
You really seem like your angry at god, or what you can't explain.. or the whole idea of religion? I dont want to argue to you about it because i'm sure that you've heard it all!! but i'd just like to know what got you wondering about all of this in the first place?

Re: i randomly found this...

vexen

2005-06-30 05:48 pm (UTC)

I supported gay tolerance once at high school, and got attacked (not physically!) by some Christians for it, and since then I wondered why religions are as they are.

I got into philosophy at one point because I'm a natural philosopher, and therefore ended up studying theology once again.

I also study sociology, which *again* means I end up studying religion.

Between those three things, I've ended up with a lot of thoughts and knowledge of religious stuff.

who created the universe

(Anonymous)

2005-07-31 05:11 am (UTC)

will u kindly tell me that who created the universe if there is no god.
first of all we have to decide one thing that in the beginning who was there? a creator with his own powers or a nonliving matter which is motionless, cannot think, cannot do any thing, having no life.
I think ur answer will be same that there was only matter or other nonliving thing and no god was there. if so then kindly tell me that who created that thing, how a non living thing can create itself. a thing which have no sense, no movement, no thoughts, no life, no will how it created itself and life and other things.if u still say that it created itself any how then why u say that there was non living matter or other non living things other than a living god because if a thing like matter created itself it means that it have sense, its own will, its own ideas so it created itself according to its own will and ideas but only living things have sense and thoughts and ideas. the creation is the act of life, sign of life, sign of movement, sign of sense and a non living thing do not have any properties like these. it all means there is a living god who have his own powers and he created the universe according to his own will and there was no matter or other non living things god created all these things. if it is not right than kindly answer my questions (a living god with all senses and powers or a non living matter with no will and sense) briefly plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I am waiting for ur reply. My e-mail address is ijazahmad_qureshi@yahoo.com

Good Work!

(Anonymous)

2005-11-13 09:07 am (UTC)

i have just recently started heavily researching religion and all the controversy surrounding the idea of the 'extistence' of god. I am an atheist and believe thats many points made are interesting and can be debated easily by most (as shown in your comments page), But, i believe that you are correct in most statements being written and what you are writing is justified. Your website has helped my research incredibly and belive that a congratulations is in order! Your theories have made my opinion in this matter sway even more towards the statement that god does not exist, and it has inspired me to look into more opinions and philosophies on this issue.

Congratulations, and keep up the good work!!!!

Re: Good Work!

(Anonymous)

2006-01-10 09:49 pm (UTC)

Hi,
I would like to reply to what you said I only checked anonymous because I'm not sure of my exact url. Anyhow I stumbled on this website quite by accident, but when I read your comments I felt the need to reply.Hoping you will honestly read what I have to say. Its Interesting how you are getting more and more convinced that there is no God I wonder what that is based upon really because although this web page can make a lot of good points and they can even seem to make sense, I would say It appears to me that the creators of it have already made up there mind that there is no God and no I have not read every single detail of the web page.but I have read some and think I can help you. The real Truth is that you can't Believe something or feel something that you don't want to truly believe or feel we have a choice and you can say well believing that there is a God is just that merely a choice. and therefore God is not real. I find most people don't believe in God because God has not done what they think God should have or should be doing. Most of the time for people God becomes a power source to get something or obtain something they want or want to happen and when they can't control it the way they see it than they don't want anything to do with it. I also find alot of people do not believe in God because they blame God for all The bad things that happen, well than who is responsible for all the Good, some would answer People individuals , but I find that people can't even be nice to each other in the simplest forms, and find it hard to give them credit for being responsible for all the good that ever happens. The Truth is that there is a God and God would be more than happy to reveal that to those who earnestly look , You can't search for God with Your own pre-existing definition and than when you don't find it say well there is no God. Well than there is no God that fits that because our pre-existing definitions do not matter when it comes to God. Sincerity Truth and Humility are what matter when we are seeking God when you seek after God with your heart You will find God and believe me you will know God is real very real, when you know God Your heart is so filled with Joy peace and Understanding that it is the most incredible feeling in the whole universe In fact I can not even put into words you can not come into intimate contact (I'M NOT TALKING SEX) with the almighty living God and not know that God is real. You will not be confused anymore You can not lean on your own understanding , you must seek God in spirit and truth or you can't see God God Protects the Sacred things only the sincere will it be revealed too, the ones that truly want to know and the beauty is That God accepts all people but yes it is on Gods terms and you know what if you felt and know what I do you would not mind trust me , when God fills you you just glow with so much love its awesome. you may say what religion how can you say one is the right one if you know God you will know, did you know that every religion believes in Jesus Christ in some form most believe he is a prophet , first of all that should tell you something right there since there accepting him as a prophet and not a false one than what he had to say had to be TRUE. so you can look that up for yourself, and if all these other religions were so truthful and correct how come they all need Jesus Yet christianity does not mention any of there Gods or Prophets. The Truth is there if you truly want to find it. Jesus is God come in the flesh he laid down his life for you and he loves you more than anyone in this world does and he is the truest friend you will ever find. Please do not let satan lie to you anymore you are so precious to God your just confused and rightfully so there is so much going on out there its hard to know what to believe and its hard to trust anyone these days. I hope you have read this and I hope you find your way , Please feel free to email me anytime Jesus247@optonline.net my name is Kathy

Re: Good Work! (Anonymous) Expand

God is Living

(Anonymous)

2006-02-17 07:45 pm (UTC)

I think it to be sad that someone would strain so hard to disprove something or in this case someone, whom even a child can come to understand. sir, it is a necessity that you believe the word of God before you believe the workings of God. You are correct in your assumption that there is no (g)od,however we will all stand before the true and living (G)od on that great judgment day. Let us always recall that God is superior to us and that he nor his works are based on logic, but rather on faith, which is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Many today, as your self, have a hard time believing in God because he can't be seen, but I end with this question. Why does no one argue over the existence of wind?

GOD help us

(Anonymous)

2006-03-07 09:36 pm (UTC)

Has it occurred to you that your concept of GOD is constrained by the limitations of your human mind. GOD is not a human concept - GOD is a self-sustaining reality - GOD is the creator of humans, not the other way round. You cannot apply the concept of a free- will to GOD as GOD's actions are independant of human judgement. For a GOD to be truly a GOD He would have to be beyond that . For a GOD to be a truly a GOD He would have to exist outside the defintion of any human imagination . It is self -delusional to think that this universe and our reality came about by accident rather than design - the intricacy and scope of its construction requires a Divine Creator and that Creator has revealed himself to us as GOD .GOD cannot reveal himself to us in a human form because that would be demoting himself to his own creation and that would be contradictory . GOD as the master creator determines our relationship with Him and requires at the very least an acknowledgement from us. GOD defines Himself to us thru his creation and thru His Divine revelations.
What else is a GOD to do?

(Deleted comment)

Re: About God's true knowledge

(Anonymous)

2006-06-19 06:40 pm (UTC)

Your concept is easily grasp. Your a fucking idiot. Time will not and does not repeat. Time only exists because we created IT! Yes we will destroy this planet and consume all of it resources. Yes everything new must get old if it is physical. Your heaven and hell are not physical and cannot age. They do not exist!! They are a made up place so people are afraid the life they choose to live on this planet. They are afraid of a higher being that controls their life. It's all a bunch of bullshit. God and religion are bullshit. Catholics, jews, Baptist, why is one better than the other? Religions are for the weak minded.

NO there is NOT a GOD!!!!

(Anonymous)

2006-06-19 06:28 pm (UTC)

All you have to do is look into the sky. The stars you see might not even be there. That light could be hundreds of light years away. If you can understand that then you can comprehend the size of the universe. To understand that then know how big our own galaxy is. With millions of stars just in our own galaxy with millions of planets. And then there are millions of galaxies with billions of planets. If you can envision what I said then how could your stupid fucking ass possibly believe that some fucking god created all of it. Let alone created it all for us. If you know any religion at all, or the bible then you know what christ represents and how everything happened. It is fucking retarded. Also the BIBLE. If you tell someone a story and they tell someone and they tell someone and so on and so forth by the time 2000 years roll around that story is going to be pretty fucked up. Also if today was 2000 years ago with the so called virgin mary and the son of God then the whole fucking bible would have never happened. They would have done so many tests on that kid and the virgin mary that it would have all been a fucking joke. Religion is for the WEAK. Believe in yourself because only you will make your dreams come true. Your future is not set and your path is not written. You ARE in control of your life. Not some made up god. PEOPLE ARE SERIOUSLY SO FUCKING STUPID.

Re: NO there is NOT a GOD!!!!

(Anonymous)

2006-07-18 12:17 am (UTC)

Yeah, look at yourself.

*sigh*

(Anonymous)

2006-07-16 02:47 pm (UTC)

You certainly have written , wrote and researched a lot just to argue yourself in circles. For the purpose of refuting that there is no God, you focus on the scriptures, which if there is no God, has no relevance whatsoever. I came across your site while researching satanism and I would think it fair to say that you subscribe to such beliefs. Which is where your entire essay fails to substantiate itself. Your arguement is a built on each of the previous claims. What is particuliarly worrying is that your opening arguements are incompletely thought out. With my rather limited knowledge of Chrsitianity, even I, am aware that God created the Universe without suffering and the world was "paradise" as he intended. It was mans on sin, encouraged by lucifer which led to God casting them out of heaven or paradise, which are one in the same. This is the reason for Heaven and not creating all mankind as being ever present in Heaven. This basic idea completely dispells all of your arguements. The reason for evil in the world is Satans influence be it past or present. The reason for life is earning salvation and regaining the ability to be seen as "good" in the eyes of God. The most worrying attribution that I make from all of this is the fact that you reject all of the dogma and any principles of religion yet you seem to be obsessed with it, decorating everything with symbols and pictures. Could you please melt down your greatest arguements which follow some sort of logic for debate as I am interested in the subject. With no offence intended, you seem rather pretentious, because you know large words and background information, does not mean you have to randomly regurgitate it into some form of what you see as "sense".

Regards

1) I use Scriptures to illustrate points; mostly, that if Scripture is correct, then God is a self-contradictory concept and doesn't exist as stated.

Also, I present many more general argument, aside from Christian texts, that show that God is impossible.

2) "With my rather limited knowledge of Chrsitianity, even I, am aware that God created the Universe without suffering"

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

The author of the Gospel of Luke wrote that Jesus said that 'a tree is known by its fruit' (Luke 6:43-44): "Good trees do not produce rotten fruit, and rotten trees do not produce good fruit". The Old Testament God, who says that he "creates evil" (Amos. 3:6, Isaiah 45:7), cannot therefore be a 'good tree', but must be a rotten one.

3) The free will theodicy of evil, which is what you have stated, is detailed on this page: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_freewill.html -> I have not ignored it, as you say, but rather I know that it is an illogical excuse for the existence of evil.

4) For more details of the Christian story behind why "sin entered the world", and death, see the Adam and Eve analysis

can you prove this? and would you willingly lay down your life believing that?

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