 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: June 20th, 2004 06:01 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
natural evil and God
|
okay, so u guys think that god causes all these natural disasters which we term as 'natural evil'. right, where shall i start... basically the governments of different countries all over the world r testing nuclear weapons and other dangerous stuff...they test this stuff in oceans or underground...if u lot know ur science (i dont mean 2 be rude..) then u will understand that these vibrations from the testings travel..as sound travels...this sound then causes the convectional current in the earths mantle (which controls the movement of the earth's plates) to move around a lot.. this can have many implications..the most common is that the plates collide into each other which causes earthquakes...now, away from the science lesson, and back to god. god has given humans freewill, so he didn't command the goverenments and others 2 carry out this testing..they did it on their own behalf..so y then do we blame god 4 this? we REAP WHAT WE SOW! now, u mayb thinkin, all right so then y doesnt god stop this? my reply 2 that would be that y should god? nobody respects him, nobody believes that he exists...then what do u want god 2 do? i hope this clears everything up, if not then i'm sorry 4 wasting ur time. i am also sorry if i sounded offensive...i didn't mean it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: July 1st, 2006 02:53 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: natural evil and God
|
This is where I sigh, roll my eyes, and flick this off. You ever seen the film "Core"? Cause that's exactly the theory that the film has, and it is entirely fictional. No human force has been known to even so much as move a freaking plate or disrupt the magnetic flows or whatever. The Earth is HUGE. Get that into your brain. HUGE. Humans are so full of it, and I don't care if I am human, I hate myself for being so. We think we're so great, so powerful. Yet we are nothing, upon this Earth. Not even a nuclear explosion is so massive, if you look out on the Earth from space. A speck. Tiny. And, repeating your last sentence, I don't mean to sound offensive either. None of us should sound offensive. Everybody gets their own word here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: January 21st, 2004 06:49 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
The corruption of the natural world and the diacotemy of man.
|
In order for you to even see my point of view, you will have to do two things: one you will have to presuppose that the Bible is true, and secondly, you will have to step outside of your own worldview and into a Christian worldview, if for only a brief second, to grasp my arugment against your position on God.
Having said that, lets take a look at why there is suffering of the innocent in the world. First, nature is the design and construction of God. At the fall (this is the main focus of my position) sin entered into the world. Sin did not enter in as a man or figure bound to roam the earth. Rather, sin entered into the genetic makeup of the natural world as it was. Thus, nature literally became corrupted. Nature itself was now on a path of corruption and decay. Secondly, sin entered into the diacotemy of human beings. Humans are made up of two things: a spiritual self (that is to say the consciousness or the "i" we refer to when talking about ourselves), and a physical body. At the fall of Adam and Eve sin entered into both aspects of human existence. First, our physical bodies were raped of life and left to slow grow into our death. Secondly, our spiritual selfs became cut off from God thus leaving us spiritually dead and with no hope of eternal life. It is because of sin that the natural world seems to harm and kill human beings. And it is because of sin in the diacotemy of man that we have genetic problems, cancer, death, innocent suffering, war, and ect. Also, if one is a Christian of Biblical understanding then they would know from the account of Job as it were that God can in his great nature alone allow the suffering of any of his people to show their trust and loyalty to him above all else.
This post was not ment to change your view, but it was meant inform you so that you can persue this subject or continue making grandeous remarks based solely on your interpretation of the world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: December 29th, 2004 03:49 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: The corruption of the natural world and the diacotemy of man.
|
Evolution has created man, from the experiences of nature all natural living things evolved. Man and all other creature have evolved for survival in their ecological niche. Intelligence arose as a result of this evolutionary pressure. Natural disasters are just another force that helps shape ecology.
To attribute a moral argument to a natural phenomenon is wrong. Evolution and natural disasters are not moral or amoral. Morality is used by man to help order society, and is a mechanism of social control. Morality as such cannot be attributed to a higher power. Morality, mores, values, labelling stereotyping etc are all usefull and sometimes not usefull tools for thinking and classifying and instructing people.
It is possible to have a belief in god, and also believe in a natural world that is shaped by evolution. Indeed it is reductionist to attribute morality and fate to the actions of God.
The idea that it is possible to have an ideal world free from suffering negates the underlying mechnism of evolution. Suffering is part of what we are, their never was an ideal world, because if there was evolution would not have created us, it would be a static world that would not change. Indeed history would not exist in such an ideal world as nothing would change. It is when things change, and evolve that u then meet what is truely human.
Original sin did not corrupt the world as we did not exist prior to evolution creating us...ie the corruption per se created us!
What I believe is that we are on journey or a process of ever greater enlightenment with god, and that we are gradually climbing out of the morass to achieve a closser alignment with god. From my point of view this does not negate the idea of redemption, indeed it is critically important for us humans to recognise our failings and limitations, and that we all need redemption. However it does mean that there was no original sin, instead it means that the dark side is part of ourselves and that we have to recognise this failing for true redemption to take place.
Natural disasters just acquaint us with what the natural world really is, random, capricious, deadly but also wonderfull. It is how we deal with this that marks us, and indeed shapes us, into more compassionate, understanding humans.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
From: ![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) vexen |
Date: December 30th, 2004 07:15 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: Natural Evil/Suffering
|
The question is "Why does God allow Suffering?" The answer is "So that you recognize blessings which are the opposite of sufferings."This is a classic argument, which I call the "experience theodicy". Unfortunately, it's also one of histories less resilient defences of evil, and it doesn't hold up as a good explanation. See: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_experience.htmlJudging by all the evidence we have, such as natural disasters, life being based on death via the food chain & disease, the needless creation of evil and suffering, it is very hard to uphold the belief that if there is a god it is good. It is much more likely that if there is a God, it is evil, not good, and not even neutral, but full-on evil. Some reasons why you could think God was evil: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.htmlYour question on angels is a good one, because some people think that angels & demons are responsible for natural disasters. Personally I think that their causes are simple physical causes, tectonic plates moving, normal things like that and not anything supernatural.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: December 31st, 2004 04:14 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: Natural Evil/Suffering
|
I have to reply to this. First of all I'm shocked that you were so quick. Second, if you cry about all of the suffering and don't do anything to try to give a blessing, then you don't experience joy. Yes, the people who just suffered a tsunami are suffering and will experience joy from your money that buys clean water. I gave what I could, not for a blessing, but because I care.
Third, I have always been told that a lot of people do not believe in God, a loving God, until they experience a tragedy. Currently, my son is in a prison. He has been there for 8 years for a drunk driving accident at the age of 17. He has read the Bible for years. He seems to know his stuff, his grit, his reality and is not crazy. Coming across more of society, the down and out, in a prison, I have printed out about 50 pages from this site. I'm even curious of what he has to say.
I will get back in about 2 or 3 weeks, after the snail mail, and the authorities read this, etc. You know how they are. But, I hope, he has some answers for you. God is good. Hopefully he will prove it.
I love you all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: July 1st, 2006 02:42 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: Natural Evil/Suffering
|
I do not believe in God, and I have endured serious suffering. I lost a friend in an accident, involving an avalanche. I lost my brother, to the fatal waters of a rip tide. Myself, I've been half strangled, beaten up and harmed in more ways you can count, my friend.
And my question now: Why, when I prayed, didn't God save my brother? My friend? Where is God? I lost my faith, after just ten years of my life. Ten years is nothing. I am sorry about your son, but that is not suffering. That is consequence for the actions that your son caused himself.
Has God proven himself here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: January 2nd, 2005 02:31 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
God is evil
|
As the Bible indicates, Lucifer rebelled against a perfect God and in doing so sinned. He was cast out of heaven and has sought to rule this earth. Thus a great controversy between God and Lucifer is now transpiring: Is God unreasonable and unfair, or is he/she fully good and compassionate? In order to display before the universe the true character and intent of the fallen Lucifer (Satan), God has obviously set limits on his/her freedom at this time to always interfere with the plots and designs of Satan. This is obvious because God permitted his/her own son to suffer and die on the cross. But in doing so, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, paid the price for all of our faults and sins. Only by letting sin run its course (which I hope will be over soon!)can God be sure that the host of angels and all the unfallen world can see that Lucifer's initial rebellion against God was unreasonable and totally self-serving. There's no greater evidence of the true character of Satan (who calls himself the prince of this world) than that the innocent and children should suffer as a consequence of living in a world where the banners of Satan reign: these are war, lust, pestilence, famine, terrorism, violence, perfidy, and natural disasters (which Satan evidently has some power over).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: January 3rd, 2005 03:38 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: God is evil
|
"Lucifer" is hardly mentioned in the Bible, and not in a negative light. http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lucifer.html (if your ignore the bit about Satanism at the beginning) is about this, see the footnotes. The crucifixion makes no sense, see my full explanation: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_crucifixionfacade.htmlJesus' death is not a logical part of god's plan, is unnecessary for an all-powerful god, etc. I'd say it's more likely to be an evil trick of Satan! (If I was inclined to believe it happened). Why did God create beings such as Satan, why did God create beings that have a nature inclined towards Sin? What's the point? And why would God let innocent people, animals, etc, suffer because of SOMONE ELSES choice? It's immoral, unjustified, illogical. The "good" god that you theorize about is a a confused liar, or a complete hallucination! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: March 14th, 2005 08:59 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: God is evil
|
first of all, id like to say you have done some pretty good research. i look at it like this, there are two types of evil: moral and natural. Plantinga would argue that free creatures God created went wrong in the exercise of their freedom; this is the source of moral evil. The fact that free creatures sometimes go wrong, however, counts neither against God’s omnipotence nor against His goodness; for He could have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good. (God, Freedom, And Evil, Alvin Plantinga, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1977, p.30)
and the crucifixion makes perfect sense. God knowing the worthwhileness of the conquest of evil and the perfecting of the universe by men, shared with them this task by subjecting himself as man to the evil in the world. "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.
and im a little shocked at your last statement, Why did God create beings such as Satan, why did God create beings that have a nature inclined towards Sin? What's the point?
God created angels and humans with free will to either choose to serve him or not. Sin began in the realm of the angels when the “son of the morning” led a group of spirit beings in a rebellion against God’s authority.
Natural evil is the consequence of moral evil. According to Genesis 3:16-19, Adam and Eve’s sin is the reason for pain in childbirth, marital tension, contrary forces in nature, wearying toil, and physical death. Romans 8:19-22 personifies nature with an outstretched neck looking eagerly for the day she will be liberated from the “futility” of her present state. God placed this sentence upon her because sin invaded His world, but the day is coming when she will be freed from her “bondage of corruption” and be brought into the “glorious liberty of the children of God.”
And my answer to your innocent people suffering is (and your probably not going to like this) Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence. As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so. The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly exercised thereby (Hebrews 12:11).
and ill say this, being a good and innocent person does not mean you will make it into Heaven. I believe there will be a lot of "good" people in hell, because they didnt believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: March 30th, 2005 09:15 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: Perfect world
|
God only needs to TEST, if there is something it doesn't KNOW. God knows everything - it knows EXACTLY what tests we will pass and fail in the future. So what's the point of the testing? Why not simply put those who will fail into hell, those who will pass into heaven, and not have to bother with all the confusion inbetween?
And why is a test necessary at all? Why does God create people that can fail this test?
If God is good, and cannot fail such a test (as it obvious it hasn't failed, given that God is in heaven), then why didn't God create many other beings that are also good, but yet do not fail such a test?
Given that, when God creates a given person, it knows whether it is creating someone that will pass or fail, why does it create ones that will fail?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: September 3rd, 2005 03:08 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Natural evil?
|
In reading your comments about an "evil god" or why He allows natural disasters if He is in fact "Good", I found an educated response from another website that I believe answers this issue with Biblical integrity and preciseness. Here is the author's conclusion after a lengthy essay about how and why earthquakes (natural disasters) occur:
"Conclusion: In view of the recent Sumatra disaster, some are asking, as noted earlier: “Why does God allow these horrible catastrophes to occur? Why does he not prevent them, or divert them away from where people are, or defuse them once they begin?” These questions doubtless are sincere, but they fail to take into consideration all the facts.
One might as well ask: “Why does God let people die?” They do – every day. According to the latest statistics, 153 thousand people worldwide die each day. That is almost 56 million per year. But we know why visits us. “Therefore, as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and through sin; and so spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). is a divine appointment (Hebrews 9:27) as a punishment for humanity’s corporate responsibility in rebelling against the Creator (cf. Genesis 2:17).
Similarly, the blighted conditions of today’s globe, which are the result of our forefather’s rebellion against God, are the price tag we have picked up on account of human sin – because humanity continues the legacy of the corruptness characteristic of our ancient ancestors (Genesis 6:5,11; cf. Romans 8:20-22; 2 Peter 3:5-7).
Let us therefore close with this little exercise in logic.
No wickedness, no Flood.
No Flood, no change of earth’s environment.
No change of earth’s environment, no geological disasters.
Thus, no wickedness, no geological disasters.
Now just who is responsible for the trouble on this “planet in rebellion”? The fault for these disasters is not God’s. It is humanity’s!
We should be humbled by these events, and brought closer to our Maker – rather than ely accusing him of injustices."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: October 5th, 2006 04:18 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: Natural evil?
|
Re: Natural evil?
Now, just let us think: If there were no such things as volcanoes and earthquakes, then the purpose of Earth would be destroyed. It's not all about humanity, you know. There are other things here, and the balance of life was created to be good and evil because otherwise, there would be nothing. Evil is a part of life. Nothing is perfect, not even God.
You say that the 'purpose' of the Earth would be destroyed if there were no volcanoes and earthquakes etc. This is simply not true. God chose to create those volcanoes, and if He wanted to, He could have created a world which could still function without volcanoes and earthquakes and in fact ANY natural disasters. However important they may be to our atmosphere and environment, the fact that God is all-powerful means that He would be able to make it so that our world could still function in the absence of these tragedies.
If it's true that the balance of life was created 'to be good and evil' then it's God that made it so. There was no reason for Him to do this. If God did not want natural Evil to be a part of life, it would not be. There is no logical reason why natural Evil should exist. Humans can still be classified as 'people' without it (as we would still be able to make moral decisions) and it would be undoubtedly more just, as we never have a choice about whether or not a natural disaster takes place (and I won't lower myself to answer to the allegations that we brought hurricanes, floods, tsunamis, droughts and any natural disaster upon ourselves. Just... no).
Even if it was absolutely imperative for natural Evil to exist (which it isn't) why does God not step in and help people stricken by it? Where is God today?
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: July 1st, 2006 02:29 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: God does exits
|
Hey, dumbfuck. Learn to spell properly, first of all. Secondly, I don't give a shit if I land in Hell or not. You people are so stupid. Not EVERYTHING is categorized into good and evil. Nobody is condradicting everyone else, and people can believe different things than your stupid fucking God. I've read the Bible, and when I did, I couldn't believe it. While you and your people say that this is the true theory, then how can you say that another person's theory isn't true? You say all else is false. Well, what if it isn't, and you are just denying the true meaning of it all? Oh, did you also consider the past of the Church? Women burn because they are thought to be "evil". Anyone who says differently from God is killed. What kind of good God does this, and what kind of followers believe this is a good deed?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: July 13th, 2006 01:15 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: God does exits
|
1) I run this website. 2) I want to believe in the truth, and therefore, I seek out the truth, analyse peoples' ideas, and study hard. I have not yet seen a sensible idea of how or why a god would exist. 3) I have read the Bible completely, and the Koran, and many Buddhist Scriptures. I've read Hebrew and Greek studies on the Bible, and looked at the opinions of various historians and theologians on the Bible and other holy books. In furthering the idea that god is evil, I have wrote commentary on much more of the bible here: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_evilgod.htmlThe God of the Bible is evil, and it is easy to see that by reading the Bible. I suggest *you* read it! 4) What "distant family member" do you think that Cain could have chosen to marry? 5) God does create evil. Take, for example, Amos 3:6 where God says he creates evil, and Isaiah 45:7 where God says "I form the light and create darkness". You said to me, "read the Bible"... and I did, and I discovered that God says it creates evil. So when you tell me, "god does not create evil", why are you also saying "read the Bible completely" to me, when YOU'RE the one who hasn't read it? 6) I don't "deny" God, just like I don't "deny" Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. None of these things exist. 7) If God judges us according to our knowledge of the truth, are you saying that stupid people go to hell, simply because they're stupid? If that's true, why does God create stupid people? Your God Is Evil. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: June 10th, 2008 04:17 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
Re: God does exits
|
I am confused. If God, who is supposed to be a superior being and controls things in nature, such as natural disaters, If he is so evil why do so many christian people seem happier?? I have Christian friends, and when bad stuff happens they seem to be able to deal with it easier. I mean, sure, you can tell that they are finding things incrediable hard, but they are still, i dunno, accepting? peaceful? Happier somehow.
And if God is so evil, how do you account for the good that is in the world??
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From: vexen |
Date: August 4th, 2006 05:54 am (UTC) |
| (Link) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: March 17th, 2007 05:08 pm (UTC) |
| (Link) |
"free will"
|
"FREE WILL" "FREE WILL" "FREE WILL" !
This is what people shout out to you when you ask why Adam, Eve, the Devil, or anybody would choose Evil, but it doesn't make any sense to me anymore.
I used to be an avid believer in free will, but then came to some realization that there's no way it could really exist. I mean if everything is caused by something, then how could our wills be "genuine first causes" (or whatever the smart priests and people say about it) if you have to "want" something before you "chose" it then the desire is forcing you to chose what you want, therefore the desire is to blame not the choice, and you can say "well I could have not listened to my desire" , but the choice to not listen to your first desire was just caused by another stronger desire alltogether from a different part of your brain, so it's still not free will doing the causing. I think that the illusion of free will evolved as a tool to help us decipher who we can punish and reward to create deterrant and thus a survival advantage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Previous
hopeful