From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 18th, 2003 11:00 am (UTC)		(Link)

What about the conclusion: Since God knows everything, he knows best and has reasons that we are unaware of

	From: vexen	Date: November 18th, 2003 06:30 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Until we are aware of them, or at least think of some possible reasons, the conclusion that god is evil or immoral is justified.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: June 20th, 2004 06:01 am (UTC)		(Link)
natural evil and God

okay, so u guys think that god causes all these natural disasters which we term as 'natural evil'. right, where shall i start... basically the governments of different countries all over the world r testing nuclear weapons and other dangerous stuff...they test this stuff in oceans or underground...if u lot know ur science (i dont mean 2 be rude..) then u will understand that these vibrations from the testings travel..as sound travels...this sound then causes the convectional current in the earths mantle (which controls the movement of the earth's plates) to move around a lot.. this can have many implications..the most common is that the plates collide into each other which causes earthquakes...now, away from the science lesson, and back to god. god has given humans freewill, so he didn't command the goverenments and others 2 carry out this testing..they did it on their own behalf..so y then do we blame god 4 this? we REAP WHAT WE SOW! now, u mayb thinkin, all right so then y doesnt god stop this? my reply 2 that would be that y should god? nobody respects him, nobody believes that he exists...then what do u want god 2 do? i hope this clears everything up, if not then i'm sorry 4 wasting ur time. i am also sorry if i sounded offensive...i didn't mean it!

	From: vexen	Date: June 22nd, 2004 11:42 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: natural evil and God

There have been natural disasters for all of recorded history, and nuclear science has only existed since the 1940s, your theory is impossibly wrong.

I know my science, and history, quite well thank you.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 1st, 2006 02:53 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: natural evil and God

This is where I sigh, roll my eyes, and flick this off. You ever seen the film "Core"? Cause that's exactly the theory that the film has, and it is entirely fictional. No human force has been known to even so much as move a freaking plate or disrupt the magnetic flows or whatever. The Earth is HUGE. Get that into your brain. HUGE. Humans are so full of it, and I don't care if I am human, I hate myself for being so. We think we're so great, so powerful. Yet we are nothing, upon this Earth. Not even a nuclear explosion is so massive, if you look out on the Earth from space. A speck. Tiny. And, repeating your last sentence, I don't mean to sound offensive either. None of us should sound offensive. Everybody gets their own word here.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 19th, 2006 08:24 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: natural evil and God

ok, ok ok so are you trying to say that all the volcanoes that kill people, all the hurricanse and all the earth quakes are caused by humans??? ok i'll grant you the fact that humans are kinda wrecking the atmosphere, but theres evidences of these "natural disasters" occuring way before nucleur bombs were tested, and more to the point its not nucluer bombs that cause these things, its the shifting of tectonic plates....just thought id point that out...

From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 1st, 2006 02:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)

What about the conclusion: If God didn't know best, and there were something above him, he wouldn't know everything, and I won't explain.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 28th, 2007 08:20 pm (UTC)		(Link)
i think

i think it is a bad idea because they
is people out they who need's us?

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 31st, 2003 04:02 pm (UTC)		(Link)
hm.

If God built the Earth, he must have left it half-baked because it seems not to be cooked properly... perhaps he just can't follow the recipes correctly... mind you he is meant to be male :D

Happy New Year.

~Azazel~

From: (Anonymous)	Date: January 21st, 2004 06:49 am (UTC)		(Link)
The corruption of the natural world and the diacotemy of man.

In order for you to even see my point of view, you will have to do two things: one you will have to presuppose that the Bible is true, and secondly, you will have to step outside of your own worldview and into a Christian worldview, if for only a brief second, to grasp my arugment against your position on God.
Having said that, lets take a look at why there is suffering of the innocent in the world. First, nature is the design and construction of God. At the fall (this is the main focus of my position) sin entered into the world. Sin did not enter in as a man or figure bound to roam the earth. Rather, sin entered into the genetic makeup of the natural world as it was. Thus, nature literally became corrupted. Nature itself was now on a path of corruption and decay. Secondly, sin entered into the diacotemy of human beings. Humans are made up of two things: a spiritual self (that is to say the consciousness or the "i" we refer to when talking about ourselves), and a physical body. At the fall of Adam and Eve sin entered into both aspects of human existence. First, our physical bodies were raped of life and left to slow grow into our death. Secondly, our spiritual selfs became cut off from God thus leaving us spiritually dead and with no hope of eternal life. It is because of sin that the natural world seems to harm and kill human beings. And it is because of sin in the diacotemy of man that we have genetic problems, cancer, death, innocent suffering, war, and ect. Also, if one is a Christian of Biblical understanding then they would know from the account of Job as it were that God can in his great nature alone allow the suffering of any of his people to show their trust and loyalty to him above all else.

This post was not ment to change your view, but it was meant inform you so that you can persue this subject or continue making grandeous remarks based solely on your interpretation of the world.

	From: vexen	Date: April 21st, 2004 10:35 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: The corruption of the natural world and the diacotemy of man.

Your presumptions:
* Nature is the design of a God
* Nature was designed perfect
* God created sin
* God created a mechanism for sin to corrupt nature
* God didn't stop sin entering nature
* God didn't stop sin entering Human nature (which would have prevented the fall)
* Once the fall occurred, God didn't remove sin, didn't heal nature, didn't (like a good parent) heal it's children

Why on Earth would your God create sin and corruption in the first place?

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 29th, 2004 03:49 am (UTC)		(Link)
Re: The corruption of the natural world and the diacotemy of man.

Evolution has created man, from the experiences of nature all natural living things evolved. Man and all other creature have evolved for survival in their ecological niche. Intelligence arose as a result of this evolutionary pressure. Natural disasters are just another force that helps shape ecology.

To attribute a moral argument to a natural phenomenon is wrong. Evolution and natural disasters are not moral or amoral. Morality is used by man to help order society, and is a mechanism of social control. Morality as such cannot be attributed to a higher power. Morality, mores, values, labelling stereotyping etc are all usefull and sometimes not usefull tools for thinking and classifying and instructing people.

It is possible to have a belief in god, and also believe in a natural world that is shaped by evolution. Indeed it is reductionist to attribute morality and fate to the actions of God.

The idea that it is possible to have an ideal world free from suffering negates the underlying mechnism of evolution. Suffering is part of what we are, their never was an ideal world, because if there was evolution would not have created us, it would be a static world that would not change. Indeed history would not exist in such an ideal world as nothing would change. It is when things change, and evolve that u then meet what is truely human.

Original sin did not corrupt the world as we did not exist prior to evolution creating us...ie the corruption per se created us!

What I believe is that we are on journey or a process of ever greater enlightenment with god, and that we are gradually climbing out of the morass to achieve a closser alignment with god. From my point of view this does not negate the idea of redemption, indeed it is critically important for us humans to recognise our failings and limitations, and that we all need redemption. However it does mean that there was no original sin, instead it means that the dark side is part of ourselves and that we have to recognise this failing for true redemption to take place.

Natural disasters just acquaint us with what the natural world really is, random, capricious, deadly but also wonderfull. It is how we deal with this that marks us, and indeed shapes us, into more compassionate, understanding humans.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: July 1st, 2006 02:48 pm (UTC)		(Link)
Re: The corruption of the natural world and the diacotemy of man.

Words spoken from a true heart, my friend.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 21st, 2004 07:43 am (UTC)		(Link)
god's existence

I am just curious...

if god is indeed a superior being... how can we label him by human qualities such as "good" or "bad"... isn't it possible that his existence cannot be confined through values that we conceive as "good"? Perhaps the reason why we cannot understand "Him" is because we do not have the capacity to understand beyond vague qualities such as good and bad.

	From: vexen	Date: April 21st, 2004 10:29 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: god's existence

... or in other words, our ideas of "good" and "bad" are arbitrary, and God would better be considered neutral or unknowable.

Other aspects of powers we traditionally grant God, though, do indeed mean that under any logical system it seems impossible to say that "God is good" (such as saying "everything God does is good" (by whoever's standard) implies that God CANNOT by will do something wrong, and is therefore morally inept: neutral.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: September 7th, 2004 09:55 am (UTC)		(Link)

i think this is a load of rubbish god does exist the only reason that there is poverty and evil is because god has given humans free will so god will not intefere with what humans do because if we didnt have free will you would be complaining that you couldnt do what you want.

	From: vexen	Date: September 8th, 2004 12:18 pm (UTC)		(Link)

What you've relied on here is the "Free Will Theodicy", which has been thoroughly proved wrong in history. The existence of free will does not explain the existence of evil.

See http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_freewill.html for detailed texts and multiple proofs.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: December 30th, 2004 02:27 am (UTC)		(Link)
Natural Evil/Suffering

I've been thinking a long time, like most people. I've read most of the posts. It got me to re-evaluate my beliefs in the Bible which I think you should read again.

The question is "Why does God allow Suffering?" The answer is "So that you recognize blessings which are the opposite of sufferings."

You other question is "Is God Evil?" The answer is, "No, the Devil is Evil. God is the opposite which is wrath and justice. Knowing that he will throw the Devil into the lake of fire is not premeditated murder, but he is showing us justice. I sometimes wondered if I were on a jury if I would pardon the Devil, but the Bible clearly states he will not be pardoned, therefore justice will be served on those who deserve it. He is a fair and loving God."

Now my question is: "Can an angel alter God's plan?" I've just begun to study them.

And God Bless you for making people think. I bet a lot of people have opened up a Bible because of this site.

	From: vexen	Date: December 30th, 2004 07:15 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Natural Evil/Suffering

The question is "Why does God allow Suffering?" The answer is "So that you recognize blessings which are the opposite of sufferings."

This is a classic argument, which I call the "experience theodicy". Unfortunately, it's also one of histories less resilient defences of evil, and it doesn't hold up as a good explanation. See:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/theodicy_experience.html

Judging by all the evidence we have, such as natural disasters, life being based on death via the food chain & disease, the needless creation of evil and suffering, it is very hard to uphold the belief that if there is a god it is good. It is much more likely that if there is a God, it is evil, not good, and not even neutral, but full-on evil.

Some reasons why you could think God was evil:
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html

Your question on angels is a good one, because some people think that angels & demons are responsible for natural disasters. Personally I think that their causes are simple physical causes, tectonic plates moving, normal things like that and not anything supernatural.