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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

Islam, Christianity and Homosexuality

"World Religions and Homosexuality" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

Interesting and informative. I would say that the conclusion does seem to ignore the first half of the essay, so that it seems more simply a condemnation of Islamic attitudes toward homosexuality. You go into some depth to describe why you think the Muslims are wrong to condem homosexuality, but you seem to assume that we already know why Christians think it's bad. I'd make the link to your Christianity & Sexuality essay more prominent, or even quote from it, just to balance out the essay a little.

I seem to remember Judaism being pretty relaxed about homosexuality; what about other religions? I assume Buddhism is against it because it's pleasure to the self and I seem to remember learning that becoming enlightened requires that we abandon the self. Could be wrong. There's plenty of other religions to check out though; I think my main issue with the major religions as a whole is that they're seen as systems of limits rather than guides and encouragements. If you limit yourself to a static set of beliefs based on ancient scripture, you can never grow and evolve as a person, or as a society. Of course, as I understand it, re-interpretation and deviation from scripture are against Sharia law. Doesn't leave much room for debate, really, does it? :)

Thanks for the comments. I think of Judaism too, but I haven't read Judaism for ages and don't feel qualified to say anything, people have before commented that recently in discussing the Abrahamic religions I seem to simply miss out Judaism... I'll refresh all my pages with extra bits once I "do" Judaism again.

A lot of Buddhist and Hindu beliefs are refreshingly pro-sexuality. Buddhism isn't always ascetic, some Buddhist groups are downright indulgent ("To get rid of desire you have to satisfy it..."), I thitnk asceticism and monasticism are cultural rather than religious in this sense.

The essay isn't a full analysis of homosexuality, as you noticed there is a lot I could add, I was concentrating on what the practical side of things were, not on the reasons behind them being as they are.

I think I should add a quote from that essay too.


what source do u have telling you that animals are homosexual?? email me and tell me srfaruqui@hotmail.com

Re: source

most detailed books on animal behaviour will include it somewhere
as it is a natural thing
cows are one species that certainly exhibits such behaviour
that is if you think it sensible to apply human concepts to animals
animals are rapists and murderers too

ps if islam dislikes homosexuality so much
why does it encourage it

in all natiaons the ratio of males to females is approximately 1:1
( less in Arab countries where it is around 97 females to 100 males
so by rights there are 100 married couples available
but in Islam multiple wives are permitted where the husband can afford to keep them
this means that the rich get a greater share of the available women
therefore it follows that the other end of the scale will miss out the chance for a wife
even if it is only the first 2 in one hundred men
where will they obtain their sexual outlet
other males
now if Islam pemitted multiple husbands on the same basis as multiple wives then this encouragement of homosexuality in the Koran would be offset

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Added text about UN anti-discrimination wishes being challenged and threatened by a group of Islamic countries.

Religion and Homosexuality.

“Islam, however, is inconsistent and illogical. It simultaneously states that all homosexuality is a moral evil, a corruption... yet it also holds that the animals of the world have submitted themselves completely to Allah. Yet, in nearly all animal species we witness homosexual behavior. This must mean that it is permissible by Allah to be gay, and that animals who have submitted completely to Allah can therefore also be gay. Islamic tradition is wrong to condemn homosexuality as an evil, and in denying that homosexuality is natural they are ignoring the facts of the world, it is an ignorant religious belief equal to that of the Christians during the Dark Ages: Where truth is suppressed because it threatens tradition and the corrupt powers of organized religious leaders.
If those who submit to Allah are sincere, they must recognize Allah's will: And such a will creates homosexuality, including homosexual people and homosexual animals, and it is not therefore the Muslims' prerogative to question this or condemn it.”
Dear friends:

A very interesting conclusion based on a very fantastic logic.
One would think that humans have the ability to stop, think, analyze and make decisions as they see them fit.
One should not equate humans to our four (usually) legged friends the animals (even though that most recent records, I e, WARS, CRIME, makes me wonder about the intelligence of the two legged ones.)

No one is born gay or lesbian it is a myth created by seculars of the recent Dark Ages, and Genetics have nothing to do with it otherwise all of the children of a gay man would be gays and, all of a straight man’s offspring would be straight and that is just not true.

God created humans who are willingly choose to be gays, lesbians, neutral, or straight.
No one has to be a Christian, Jew, or Muslim .If one does not want to follow the rules of those religions then one should stay away from them altogether, you just can not pick and choose whatever you like, it is the whole package, it is not a Movie script that you can alter every few years, the whole package, take or leave it, after all, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam might just be inventions of our cavemen ancestors.
I chose to bet on God.
The reason for my response is that if you do not follow a religion then you are not obligated to adhere to its rules as long as you do not claim to be a follower then, the rules of those religions should not and would not apply to you. In that case I fail to see the problem completely.
PLEASE NOTICE THAT I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF RELIGION IN FANATIC COUNTRIES SUCH AS PAKISTAN, SAUDIA ARABIA, MALAYSIA (shall I mention more countries?). I am a Muslim Arabic person who yet to see or heard of a single Arabic or Muslim country that even come to resemble an Islamic state. Only Hitler like rulers as the majority now, or some coward pathetic illiterate fanatics who shoot women in soccer fields and fly air planes into buildings.
Point is not to confuse the so-called religious people with religion, do not confuse God with humans.

God knows best.

El mohamed

Re: Religion and Homosexuality.


1) Most people do not choose their sexuality. I know many gay, lesbian, transgendered, etc, people who very very much wish they were heterosexual, because of the pain & bias that they face because immoral abrahamic (Islam, Christianity & Judaism) religions preach hatred & intolerance.

2) Your comments about genetics are wrong. Not all blue eyed people have blue eyed children, not all brown-eyed people have brown-eyed children, etc. Same with hair, and all other factors. In genetics there are complex & mathematical/statistical laws that precisely govern how dominant & recessive alleles mix during conception to produce children with various combinations of their parents genes, it's not as simple as you think it is.

3) The reason I don't follow the 3 religions you mention is because I don't believe they're true. It's not because I don't want to follow their antiquated rules.

Christians and Homosexuality

I believe that in an attempt to discredit what Jesus says or what the Bible says against homosexuality, many errors of context, interpretation, translation, etc, are made. For example, the author says "Jesus Christ always promoted Love over Hate and in this respect he overrode the Old Testament." This is not correct because to believe this would imply that love expressed in the Old Testament is different then love expressed in the New Testament. Christians believe that love in both testaments originate from the same unchanging God and therefore cannot be different. However, what is different is some people's interpretation of love in the Old and New Testaments.

Simply put, God and His Son Jesus hate evil. Sin is the evil that sinful humans do and think. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin since it is spoken of as a violation of how God has originally created us to be. He created us in His image. He created us as male and female. He intended that male should bond with female for the purpose of procreation within the framework of marriage. Marriage is then a holy institution created by God. Any bonding in this context under any other circumstances is a sin. Why is it a sin? Because it is the same as saying to God, I know what your originally intentions were but "I" want to violate your intentions. I want to do it "MY" way. It is a form of rejection of God and that is what God hates. And it does not matter how much you talk about it being love, it is not love for God and will not result in holy matrimony. And it is not really love for the homosexual partner because the one partner is being led to sin by the other. Christians believe that this is condemning for both.

After reading this particular essay on homosexuality i was dismayed to see that negative attitudes towards Islam do continue to exist.
There is no doubt that homosexuality within Islam is sinful however i feel that the author of the essay neglects to grasp the meaning behind Islam.
Humans are not homosexuals by nature. Sexuality is a choice of identity which follows choices of actions which follow from choices of what to have sexual fanatsies about. Human beings are given the intellect to control their thoughts, entertain some and dismiss others.
I strongly advise the author to do some research on the reasons for why Islam is so strongly against homosexuality. Also to stop the pretense that this essay is an objective view of Islam when it is obvious that the author is using the essay as a means of conveying his ignorant and negative views to others.

May Allah grant you the knowledge to learn from your mistakes

reply to alisha

i agree with alisha, homosexuality is not natural. most religions are cold towards the idea of homosexuality and most religious cults believe that life is about nature and natural developments. humans having children the natural way, natural relationships etc... islam does oppose homosexuality because it is considered a heavy sin and there are always chastisements for the ones who disobey and stray from the path of Allah. islam is the religion of all religions. islam started from the roots of Adam and Eve [A.S] and has been passed on from prophet to prophet. so slagging of islam is the same as slagging of judaism and christianity. all vexen seems to do is display negative points of islam [when there dont seem to be none], have you considered the positive points yet, vexen? or are you still in denial?

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Homosexuality to what degree?

In the Bible, Moses wrote that God condemns "men who lieth with a man as he would a woman." Does this imply that thinking homosexual thoughts and "self-pleasure" though such thoughts is also a sin? What about bisexuality?

Re: Homosexuality to what degree?

No, it implies that Jewish writers believed that God believed it was a sin. However, they were wrong, and homosexuality is as natural as any other sexuality: This is true, whether you believe that god created all the various sexualities, or if you believe that they're the result of biology and genes.


Hello, I just wanted to point out that the only passages in the Quran regarding homosexuality are as follows:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

And the hanafi school of thought, although accepts homosexuality as a sin, teaches that no physical punishment be warranted.

Islam also considers back biting or "b*tching" about people comparable to "eating the flesh of a dead brother" and some consider you to have broken your fast if you do it whilst fasting.(just to add some perspective of issues)

I doubt this will have you jumping out of your seats in liberation but i just thought i would clarify that not all muslim responses to homosexuality are the same.

Re: Islam

also, forgot to add, islam also sees ANY sexual relations outside marriage a sin. i don't really know the answer. It is rather strange to be muslim and have a best friend who is gay. the MOST repeated thing in Islam is that Allah is Most MERCIFUL... Muslims tend to forget that.

Dagnammit i sound like a homophobic fool. But Islam gives me peace. Is it not enough to say:

1. homosexuality is regarded a sin (can't really change that one)
2. this sin is not considered punishable (atleast by one MAJOR school of thought)
3. Therefore it is left to God to deal with this sin
4. And since God is "most Merciful and forgiving" then it's really just between the said homosexual and God.

Islam and homosexuality

I strongly disagree with your assessment of homosexuality in Islam. You claim that it is a stronger condemnation than that found in Christianity (ostensibly a reference to Leviticus 20:13, which calls for the killing of homosexuals, and promises that their blood will be on their own hands). The only condemnation found in the Qur'an is that if two men or two women engage in homosexual sex, one should "punish them both", unless they repent and mend their ways. This is actually a milder injunction that that for those who engage in heterosexual sex, who are specifically to be given 100 lashes (in Islam, where punishment is not specified, 10 lashes is considered to be the maximum). At any rate, I agree that in many "muslim" countries, homosexals are not treated the same way, for example, as straight muslims who date. However, these countries also have dictatorships (which are forbidden in Islam), violate human rights at every turn, violate religious freedom, deny women their rights, all in direct contravention of Islam. Much work needs to be done to separate what is practiced in Muslim countris, from what Islam teaches. Unfortunately, many Muslim scholars seem painfully unaware fo what legitimate sources teach. Indeed, when I searched the issue on www.islamicity.com, a fairly conservative site, one gay man who asked a question was told that he should "accept who he is, and attempt to live with it". In other places I have read conservative scholars state that homosexuals should be treated the same way as heterosexuals who have sex outside of marriage. Also, there are a couple of other issues, namely that Islamic law applies only under a Caliph, and that no muslim is allowed to judge another (God being the only judge). Also, for any sexual crime, scholars agree that there must be 4 eyewitnesses to the penetration for a conviction. And don't forget that the person must just repent, and then all punishment is commuted.

Please don't give in to Jerry Falwell by painting Islam in a negative light. Tolerance flows both ways, and we are on the same side of this battle.

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Dear anonymous writer,
I second you!. However I would like to correct you on one thing, God through his messenger the Holy Prophet Muhammad has established that men who are recognised as honourable, wise, well-educated in the Islamic jurisprudence, strict, does not commit serious sins, and all in all has a well repute may be chosen as judges among mankind. It is one of the most important foundations of Islam to uphold the law, forbid or shun evil and promote righteousness(this is the concept of amar ma'ruf nahi mungkar).
With all due respect,
Valiant Muslim

Pagan religions and Homosexuality

I disagree with your statement that Pagans or Wiccans dislike homosexuals. Though it is a personal choice, such religions teach tolerance and respect to everyone.
I am a gay wiccan, and in fact lots of male Wiccans that I know are gay!

Screw you

Homosexuals are worthless if your open to debate email me at jcastro12@sbcglobal.net

Well guyz this topic is really getting out of control, it diverged into religious, and cultural strugles.

In my point of view i believe that homosexuality is an entirely wrong act, and please this is not any kind of personal disgust or whatsoever. People are born by nature heterosexuals, it is just the culture, or the way they've been raised in. A monster parent, or a sexual abuse in a young age. Which is usually the case with most of my homosexual friends.

Another thing i would like to add is why do i think that this is wrong:

Because that is morally wrong, that is against the Human reproduction theory. Even when adopting children, many of them grow up with a homosexual behaviors taken from the parents, and the continue of this fact will lead to the extinction of the human race, may be after 100-200-...years but that will be a major reason.

I support the islamic point of view Actually in Islam a homosexual; e.g a gay for him to be punished he must be witnessed by at least 4 male witnesses, telling to the judge the same story, if they even contradicted in a minor thing that is considered as a false witness and the witness are the ones to be punished. That is more like the punishment is not for the act, but for doing it somehow publicly. so you can be gay, in a ((REAL ISLAMIC)) as soon as you don't admit it.

I am sorry guys for my very long comment...In the end it is a sinful act, just admit that...that's all.

Overpopulation and modern science

Think of this that way:
Each person is his own person, I feel no obligation to make more humans then there are already. Why should I? I'm not a part of all, I am for myself all.
Another way of seeing homosexuality is as a reaction of Gaia's immune system. There are to many people, far more then Gaia can sustain, and so Homosexuality is a way to make overpopulation less a problem. In a way homosexuality solves global food shortage and overpopulaiton by diminishing birth rate.
Thirdly I wish to point out modern scince: Today many htings and theories exist as to how to prodice babies not out of two mating humans, using the female counterpart as a live incubator. Also modern researche shows that homosexuality is inborn.
A final note regarding religious thinking: Stupidicy is frowned upon in all ancient religions: Budhism, Hinduism and so on are examples of the old world frownign upon stupidicy. Islam and Judeism did so two, preaching wisdom and questioning, up until christianity kicked in.
THe actual use of "REAL ISLAM" means you are just as worse as everyone, believing there is one real path. All pathes are real when one believs in it. Reality is Real because we believe in it.
you say "just admit it", but admit what? Ok I admit. I'm homosexual, I like it. I wasn't though it by colture, I was born this way. How do I know? colture pushed me to try and deny myself and have hetrosexual relationship, but it failed, because it was a lie! and all lies are sins! I admit one more thing: Homosexuality is conscidered a sin in many religions.
But here's a real tough one for you: If god is against homosexuality, how come it exist? If there is one omnipotent god above all, how come we resist him? If there is a god, he isn't agianst homosexuality, else it wasn't have been there in the first place.
BTW, just for your own insight ointo thing: Homosexuality predates monotheism. Many polytheistic coltures where tolerant to Homosexuality, and it was infact recorded phenomena before the birth of Abraham. Monotheism surpressed it, and as all things in nature, when you lock it away in pressure, it eventually explodes, just as it did.
If there is god, one speaks to it from himself and not through books. If there is a master creator of men, then each man can talk to him himself (and each woman, they are different but not lesser).

A couple of things really

1. It is very unfortunate one has to have listed himself to be non-anonymouse. A shame. I have written several posts here as "annonymous".
1. "and as the very concept of homosexuality was not formed at the time that the Hebrew Bible's texts " - from the article, regarding Judeism.
Incorrect. The Torah speciphicly prohibids "Miskav Zachur", punishable by death. There is however an argument about what that means. "Mishkav" is lying down, or where you ly down. It is used for describing sex in the Torah, but also to describe Death. "Zachur" is regarded by Rabbanim as a mistaken "Zachar"=male, hence the sleeping of to males together, or homosexuality, is prohibited. Some modern researchers however belive it may have something to do with prohibiting other things. Mainly a man who pretends to be a woman, or two men who are having a joint life but am disguising it. It refers to an unproved thougth to have excisted habbit of a man who dresses and impersonate a woman to live with his beloved man.
My Tanakh (bible, old testement) teacher says the original script prohibits "Miskav Zchur" which is, well, totaly unidentified word in hebrew. Putting that asside, the external books, those books who were written during the same period as the old tesstament but were sidcluded has a large reference of homosexuality, and it is unknown wether homosexuality was publicly disgused or was privatly whispered.

your views on islam and gay people

the sh!t you wrote about muslims and how they proptray gay people is pathetic
you made muslims sound stupid and illitrate.
clearly you are not educated in the real reasons islam is against homosexuality. so i wont hold your lack of knowlwdge against you.
first of all if you have seen gay action in almost all animals (like you said) then we have a problem...have you really seen a male giraffe humping another mail giraffe? have you seen a male turtle doing another male turtle...so your telling me when you see two animals having sex you go and check for thier penis's and vaginas?? very interesting i must say.
homosexuality is somthing that is NOT fully accepted in all societys and countries so how the F*** can you expect it to be accepted in religions?
even though you wrote this is 2002...i have just come accross it. hopefully during these 5 years you put yourself to use and educated yourself on reality...and your point of view has changed.
if not then....on the day of judgement we will ALL see the truth.
Good bye

If you researched your subject you did a terrible job. You pick verses from the Bible that blatantly condemn homosexuality and attempt to counter them. You even make an implied claim the the Bible was not the inspired word of God but a corrupt text written by the hearts of Man. "Forcing Humanity Forwards" should be changed to backwards. As illogical, dimwitted, and irrational conclusions based on flawed research or opinion are not going to lead anyone forward. Have fun in the past.