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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

Christian 7 day creation

Christian 7 day creation

This is a rewrite of text I wrote 3 years ago. I wrote most my text on Christianity between 1998 and 2000, and much of it is embarrasing now. You know how it goes. It took me all day to rewrite this bit, it was a long and boring job. Nearly all the original text (and arguments) are gone. It is still boring and mostly irrelevent to most people including sensible Christians, but vaguely interesting if you're just getting into biblical criticism.

The Christian 7 day creation story opens the first book of Genesis, and is the first text in the Christian Bible. The first 5 books of the Christian Bible are the Jewish Scriptures.

Just a small point of correction because this often confuses people. The entirety of what is commonly called the "Old Testament" consists of 39 books in the Protestant tradition and 47 books in the Catholic tradition (with the Apocrypha) and they are all Hebrew/Jewish Scriptures (not just the first 5 books of the Torah). While Christians include all of the Hebrew texts in their canon, Jews do not exactly appreciate their texts being called the "Christian Bible" for obvious reasons. Of course, Muslims include the same Hebrew texts in their tradition as being inspired and authoritative but no one calls them "the Muslim Scriptures."

For cultural sensitivity reasons and for accuracy, scholars now generally refer to the Old Testament as the "Hebrew Scriptures" and the New Testament as the "Christian Scriptures" since the terms "old" and "new" are names the Christians put on to those texts in modern times and is offensive to Jews. Technically then, it is "safe" and more accurate to call Genesis part of the "Christian and Jewish canon."

Oops... I could have written Torah or Pentateuch, or Books of Moses or anything... "Jewish Scriptures" was the one particular phrase that I shouldn't have used! Thanx I'll go fix it!

I've heard that about Old/New testaments before, but it's hard to consciously keep it in mind whilst actually writing. Thanks for reminding me and poking me!

Chronological mistakes or and old story !

Dear Reader, What has been published here to me is an old story which is trying to criticize the Bible. All the numbers like: Big Bang 15,000 million Birth of the Sun, the Earth and Moon 4600 million etc ... Are the result of some calculation (scientifically ), but hold on I'm not against science and I love it but how can I rely on something which is variable ? couple years ago, Atom used to be assumed the smallest core and man thought that is the answer for some questions proudly! but later, he found out there is something smaller than Atom. So many times the Earth/Sun life has been announced in different ways with a huge different and our galaxy used to be assumed the only galaxy in the whole universe! and now scientists believe there are unlimited galaxies in the universe! so as you see, our knowledge is not the thing which we can trust in real concept. One day you thing the thing which causes cancer is a factor like X; the other day scientists realize that it's not X it's a factor like Y. So what we know and what we get as our research result is not the absolute point of view. Our knowledge or man knowledge is no perfect. However, although it's a positive work of man but still it's an incomplete issue. How could we trust a fact which is variable and on and off could be rejected ? Thanks for reading

your facts are wrong

The earth and everything we have now was created in 7 days by God. there are two ways of thinking to that though. One was is to think about how you were talking about that the 7 days werent actually 7 days as we think of them it could have been longer therefore uyou came up with the thinking of how can plants live billions of years with no sun. well that is a good way of thinking but you have to remember what if the 7 days wour 7 days then plants can survive for a day without sun, and if god created the heavens and the earth, sun, moon, stars, plants, and animal, then I think he can make plants not die. Another thing everything in the bible is true not one person has ever been able to prove a point in the Bible false, sothe writers who wrote Genesis were inspired by God to write that book so I dont think that they would make a flaw or be incorrect.

Re: your facts are right!

You hit the nail on the head. You are exactly right about eveything. Your piorities are perfect. Keep doing, learning, and studying what you are doing! You are awesome!

i need some help

my name is David and i am writting about the 1st genesis creation myth. i dont have a good sense on what i should research but i was wonderin if anyone could help me. i am not writtin on whether or not it is true, but all i need is reliable information that i could use in my research paper. i want help on what i should research asap. i also wnat reliable info/sources on both sides of the argument on wheather or not this happen. what else shoud i research for my paper???????? thanx if u can help. please respond ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!......

dont take this as an offense, but i and many people over the world think that your text some how hurts them: when you say at the end of the genesis text: it should be purged, it sounds as if you would be some kind of person wanting the world for himself and not for anyone else. think about the creationists. they think about the genesis the way they want and that doesn't give you the right to just say things like the one your text has

i am sorry if i have insulted you
if you want to talk, send an email to superfetuskidx@yahoo.com

(Deleted comment)

Re: Vexen Crabtree

being a christian( and i am too) I think you should'nt have been so hard in saying that(no offense). Even Jesus didn't MAKE people get saved. He gave mankind a free choice, so following Hs example, we should live ou life to his glory and not just merely push it on other people calling them "sinner". That will only push them farther from the truth.

Re: Vexen Crabtree (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Vexen Crabtree (Anonymous) Expand


Hello. I stumbled upon this website by accident, and am quite angry with myself for wasting the time necessary to read this. I'm not going to say that you're a sinner and are going to hell. Nobody is perfect, therefore everyone sins. Yet as christians, we believe in heaven. So therefor we must be saved not because we do not sin, but because we believe. BUT ANYWAY...
I wanted to reply to what i read. As a previous post mentioned, science is an everchanging study. If you believe that the bible has been rewriten and edited as I do, then you must believe that science, especially that of archeology, has been edited and restudied many times. Any rational person who believes in the bible does not always take it literally, just because of the number of times the book has been translated.
A man of science, however, would understand the 7th day resting period very easily, if I may take that as an example. To ask a mere human-being to believe that an all mighty being created all of the heavens and the earth is quite outrageous. If that human is strong enough to believe in that, then i think God makes it easy on us if he just gives us a simple reason why he wants us to take the 7th day as holy.
Another point: When God creates man, it sais that he does so in his likeness. Therefore WE as humans resemble God. So if i turn the question around to YOU the author, "If you had just finished creating the heavens and the earth, and it was good, wouldnt you take a moment to admire your creation?"
Tell me what you think...philgauthier12@hotmail.com

Can I assume that you are omnipotent or omnisicient?

You wrote the following "The seventh day is a sign of the mythical assumptions of those who wrote the genesis account. God is omnipotent and omniscient. Yet, it took the seventh day resting? And working out if its creation was good? It is not true that an omnipotent (all-powerful) being ever needs to rest. It is also untrue that an omniscient (all-knowing) being ever needs to wonder, ponder or think: It simply knows, and instantly."

I'm sorry, but these are some of the most arrogant assumptions that I have ever read. How do you claim to know what an omnipotent being needs? How many conversations have you had with an an all-powerful all-knowing being? Let's assume that God did not "NEED" to rest. Does that mean that God is not allowed to rest? Rest simply means that he paused or idled. This does not suggest that God was weak or without energy. And please point out the verse that says God wondered or questioned whether his creations were good or not good. God is all-knowing. However, that does not mean God is not allowed to examine, reflect on, or appreciate His creations.

(no username or password...but not anonymous.)
John Coley

You see, God can do anything. He is all powerful and knowing, etc. The Bible is to be TAKEN LITERALLY! It is either ALL TRUE or ALL FALSE. It can't be both! So, when God says he created everything in 7 days ... He did! Remember, He's God. Every single person forgets that God IS SCIENCE ... He created it. He created math, etc. He also gave the scientist their ability to think and figure things out. All the people coming to this site don't know who God really is and that the Holy Bible (Old Contract and New Contract) are inspired by Him and every word is true and literal. To believe the contrary is a slap in the face to God.

reply to this comment...

"The Bible is to be TAKEN LITERALLY! It is either ALL TRUE or ALL FALSE."

Hi there,

I was reading all of these comments and I came across this one and I have to have my input here. I am a believer, and I agree that the Bible is eithe ALL TRUE or ALL FALSE, however, not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. Take, for example, the "if your right hand causes you to sin, then remove it; for it is better to enter eternity without your right hand than it is to not enter eternity at all." As i guy, and as you are probably too, we both know that our right hand causes us to sin...but I am fairly certain that you have not removed it (nor have i). This is a classic example of the Bible and how it doesn't ONLY contain LITERAL truths, but also FIGURATIVE PARABLES and the such.

I am not coming down on you, i just need to make sure you dont limit the Bible to only being literal.

God bless you dude (or dudette) and keep searching and digging!

7 day creation myth

You guys are trying too hard to break it down scientificly. If you think about it accordign to the bible God is a god he can do anything . There doesnt have to be a exact definition of when he does . If you look at more inteligent sources it clearly says that then the days actual time frame were different there werent set hours in a day or days in a week or weeks in a year they just went by when things happened. So if god took a few years to do step 1 and then a year to do step 2 or done them in various patterns it wouldnt effect the outcome because there was no time according to the bible god is not bound by time he is all times and no times .

Re: 7 day creation myth

I have to laugh at all of these outrageous comments. Are you people for real? The strength of science is that it is always changing. Nothing is set in stone. Science is alive, it is ever growing, it is not static. There are no absolutes in science, no absolute truth is possible because new and improved measurements, observations and experiments are constantly pushing science to a greater and improved understanding of our universe. As our instruments have improved we have developed the ability to see deeper into the universe. The ancients of course were only able to see the sun, the moon, 5 planets and maybe 5000 or so stars on a crystal clear night. There is no mention in the bible of the Milky Way Galaxy or of quasars, black holes, neutron stars, planetary nebula, white dwarf stars, or of hundreds of billions of other galaxies, etc. etc. etc. The earth was thought to be flat, with the sun, planets, and stars revolving around it. These "inspired" biblical writers were not even aware of Earths shape or that it revolved around the sun. Wow! Why don't you accept the flat earth, and geocentrism as fact too? Its in the bible. The fact is that you pick and choose the myths you want to believe. With lots of mental gymnastics, denials, counting the hits and ignoring the misses, you can justify your beliefs about anything. So why not a flat earth with its four corners? Why not put Earth at the center of the universe? Why not talking snakes, and donkeys and global floods and virgin births and humans coexisting with dinosaurs?

As for the plants surviving even 1 day without the sun. Ha! Ha! Ha! I don't know of too many plants that can survive temperatures of near absolute zero for even a few seconds let alone a day. The atmosphere and oceans would have been frozen as the Sun would not have existed to be warming them up. But of course this omnipotent God spent a day "breathing" on them while he figured out how to make the Sun. He/she/it just likes sitting around keeping plants warm. The fact that God is a male is a hoot in itself. Does he have sex with himself? Yes, it is time to do away with the Genesis myths. They are so fraught with errors, contradictions, catch 22's, absurdities and the like that I could write for days, as could any logical thinking adult, with a minimum of critical thinking skills. It is time to grow up and get real. Not one of you who wrote in defended the bible/Genesis myth with any evidence at all except to keep preaching with circular reasoning that the bible is true because it says it is true. Science does not have all the answers, like religions do, but what we don't know is growing smaller all the time. Substituting religious myths, on the other hand, for scientific evidence is nonsense. Creationism is pure and utter nonsense!!!! Please give me imperfect science, at least it can be mistaken and correct itself!! God has never corrected the bible.

Re: 7 day creation myth (Anonymous) Expand
Re: 7 day creation myth (Anonymous) Expand
Re: 7 day creation myth (Anonymous) Expand


I am neither christian nor jew, nor muslim for that matter, but this piece was about as lame as you can get when it comes to solid research and understanding the issue.

First let me comment that I believe critics have claimed the Hebrews took this story from just about every group on the face of the earth....some say Babylonians, others Sumerians, some say Phoenicians, other Egyptians...the list goes on and on.

No of these brilliant minds ever stops to ask...if some many cultures have similar stories...where did THEY get it from? I don't know...but it is worth asking isn't it? After all, seems more than just the Hebrews did a bit of copying.

As for your .... underwhelming understanding of Genesis...it would just take too long to point out there is a lot of difference between what was written in Hebrew and what some self aggrandizing christians decided for themselves was being written....Many christians present a compelling argument for the earth being millions or billions of years old...they know...if the rest of the world is ignorant of the fact, that experts in Hebrew will tell you Genesis is not talking about the very beginning of time at all.
ANyway, I can see you don't do much digging or verifying or...anything else it seems other than regurgitating things you've heard or read elsewhere. Good luck to you.

Re: Genesis

The author of the article is relying purely on one book from what I read. I have read that book and it is now considered somewhat outdated in the understanding of science. Two books i recommend is The Evidence Thad Demands a Verdict By Josh McDowell, read the updated version, and I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, dont remember but i believe their is only one book by that title, it was published in 04 just in case. Check out www.biblehelp.org/7day.htm if want reason literal interpation of creation story or www.godandscience.org for the figurative interpetation. If you want to contact you reach me by e-mail fireball95@hotmail.com I like to look at information from every side even though I am preparing to go into seminary in the next couple years. I take figurative approach for now by the way.

a mess

you have no idea....did u know that there are missing parts of the Bible. Im going to need for u too get your facts streight first. your life is boring ang u have absolutly nothing else to doo.

Yes, there are lots of books that not included in the official New Testament canon that were more authentic than many of the books that *did* make it. These have become known collectively as the apocypha.

However, Christianity as a general whole has rejected these books as heretical, hence why the Christian church tried to eliminate and burn them all, and kill their believers.

Are they the facts you wanted straightening out?

My life is far from boring, buddy.

subject heads suck

so i read the text.
and then i read all the responses to it.

it's been humorous watching as christianity diffusion has become more and more popular, but i guess that's what it gets for being so popular, right?

i've noticed that in my groups of friends and on TV and on the radio and the internet a new trend is to attack the Bible and point out all that is wrong with it.
it's not hard to do, nor is it sticking your head out anymore.
so many people do it that it's not a big deal, and it's easy to do because if you keep on the single track running in your head and take it literally then obviously there will be some unresolved issues.

the idea that you attacked in the beginning about the formation of the earth is a good example of the literal thinking.
those are the kind of ideas that come out of limited contemplation.
the idea of "7 days" is a totally reasonable metaphore, to contradict you, and although I doubt that it was 7 24 hour periods, God can do anything he fucking wants and could very well have done it in 10 seconds if he tried.

the point is that when the story was written down, it was written as a metaphorical value, and in order to understand it, people just have to think outside their space for a minute or two. it's easier than bashing it.

the whole issue of attacking christianity is becoming tiring, and people like you think that you're some sort of tough renegade for attacking such a majority.
what you don't know is that for every bit of difficulty that you find in your path, staying a legitimate christian and keeping the even balance of defending your position and not being outspoken is ten times as hard.
especially with all the people who are joining in on the "cool" thing to do.

if people think they're so tough and bad ass then let's see them really attack something that they'll get the shit kicked out of them for.
i never hear anything about jew's, or muslims, or bhuddism, or the Tao.

i just read pieces of the Tao, and if you think that the problem with the Bible is the fact that it has nonsensical metaphors, then go back and read through the Tao and tell me that "A Master does nothing, yet leaves nothing undone," makes sense when you think literally.

Attacking christianity is getting old, and it always was done by people who are afraid of joining something that makes sense - who are afraid to live under a force that requires you to be a good person.
you have to answer for your actions eventually, so suck it up.

im not preaching, and im not saying you're a "sinner", and im just as irritated by those idiots who say you'll go to hell and you're a bad person, because they don't even really know you, and the only thing they're doing is proving that christians are judgemental and outspoken.

im not judging you, and im trying to keep an even keel.
i just stated what i thought.
and that is that raging on the Bible is lame now.

it's a trend.
and because it's so old, no one cares.
lets see you post a site about how the religions in africa are bad because they kill each other and eat wierd things.

you can't.
so why is it ok to do it to christianity?
because it's old, and it's strong, and the people who diss it grab ahold of the same things, like the crusades and hitler, both of which are dead.

it's a waste of time what you wrote.
but it was interesting, even though i've read it from countless others.


Re: subject heads suck

go to www.7daysofcreation.info for a refreshing look at the creation issue....

Read it

i am a christian and the facts are here.
right in your face. everyone is searching for something
but people reject the truth about God because, i dont know
it is so obvious u look around how can all this just suddenly be in a chemical reaction. This is designed by the ultimate Designer God there is no other explanation. God gave us free will we can choose to xcept it or refuse it. Yes the bible is written by humans Humans directed by God he told them what to right. People ask for miricles, signs and wonders. They are in the bible. The is a story which talks about a man that was died he went to heaven and he asked if he could go and tell his family that there is a heaven and a hell. The man said to him that if they didnt believe in the bible that is there for them then they wouldnt beileve him if they saw him.
Im not forcing you readers to become christians but to no write off the bible without reading even try getting a bible comentary to help understand it. If u dont it would be like doing a survey on the best fotty team and only surveying one town


In terms of your conclusion:
Moses may have physically written the book but, was inspired by God. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16 look it up. So anything that would have been illogical, unscientific to the writer would have been very evident to God. So Genesis is not written by fallible human beings but, rather by God who is perfect.

So your logic is that Moses was infallible because 2 Timothy says so? Timothy, who believed in the OT as part of his religion? Isn't that a little bit of a biased source?

Don't all religious books, like say, the Koran, contain exactly the same types of proclamations?

In order to be sensible, you need to think better than "it says so!" in order to assert it's divinity!