Log in

No account? Create an account
Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

Previous Entry Share Next Entry
Vexen Crabtree 2015

Pride in sexuality, shame on the Church of England

Gay Pride
Brought a tear of happiness to my eye to see the success of this 65,000 people event... it's wonderful and amazing! :-)
I know a lot of people who are going (many go to support gay equality and pride in general, you'd be wrong to assume everyone who goes is gay!), I hope you all have a great time :-) Shame I'm not there!

Church of England
For those who were semi-following the gay bishop issue, the Church of England blocked the promotion of the gay man on grounds of his sexuality. But events like Pride, supported fully by heavy gay police presence, and events populated and openly supported by government and social departments at every level, make me know that the successes of the homophobic evangelical parts of the Church of England is pale and irrelevent, society has well and truly marched well ahead of the times when religions bigotry influences humane tolerance and progress.

"swept aside by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, when he summoned Canon John and Bishop Harries to Lambeth Palace and demanded the canon's resignation."

Gay marriage
With the same-sex registrar finally being implemented nation-wide (previously it was only available in London) and the expansion of it's affect to include full legal rights as you'd get from marriage, it seems that the UK has finally caught up with moral Europe! I'm proud of us, and Gay Pride, the UK rocks :-) OK we were a cool ten years behind gay rights in countries such as Sweden, Norway, Iceland and the Netherlands... but hey, better late than never!

"Never", however, seems to be the precise stance of the Church of England towards gay toleration and equal rights... it's a sad day when I begin to stop thinking of the C of E as liberal, and start considering it evangelical :-(

But, the future looks good :-)

  • 1
"swept aside by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, when he summoned Canon John and Bishop Harries to Lambeth Palace and demanded the canon's resignation."

I think that quote was a bit cruel to be honnest. Rowen williams is well know to be broadly in favor of forwarding gay rights within the church but is trying to do so without breaking the whole eddiffice in to waring factions with the Biggoted parts left to thier own devices to become even more right wing without the modderateing hand of the moderate wing of the church. It's also a sad fact that without the evangelistic right wing of the church the moderate wing of the church will go bust and colapes within years Leaving the bigots to be the only christian voice left in europe.

It's terrible that the rightwing of the church weilds such power but cruel to say Williams didn't try to push the whole debate a long way by holding out as long as he dared. It's now a debate that will not go away and may eventualy drag the right wing along with it.

The bible after all can be made to say just about anything if you read it the right way.

Rowan Williams is also saying, as a result of the financial pressures that you've highlighted, to the ECUSA that they shouldn't split the Church by ordaining canon Gene Williams (?) who is another gay bishop-to-be, this one isn't even celibate, he's in a current gay relationship. ECUSA (Episcopal Church - USA branch of Anglican Communion) is more liberal and modern than the main C of E, but nonetheless Rowan Williams is presently forced to be on their "side".

The quote wasn't cruel - JJ did not want to stand down, and said so, and refused to sign the pre-written letter of resignation that Williams presented to him... friends of JJ said that JJ was destroyed, despairing and deeply upset, shocked and hurt by the forcefullness of Williams' demand.

Williams is a good man, I do not doubt that for a single second, but by allowing the fundies to prevail over doing what is right - for financial reasons - is quite hypocritical for a Christian.

The difference between middle- and right- in this issue is not really interpretation of Christian scripture. The Bible does not say that gay people can't be bishops (all people are sinners - it says that gay sex is sinful, but it doesn't say that any particular sin prevents a person taking up a bishopric).

The big difference in approach is a matter of toleration - the evangelicals don't tolerate anything that seems gay friendly and the evangelicals view the Bible as inerrant (whereas most Christian in the C of E used to happily admit that it is inspired by god, but much of the content was cultural (meant for a different time) and best left in the past), whereas the liberals see the church as an upholder of morals, not just traditional interpretation.

Remeber that Unlike The Bishop of Oxford Rowan Williams can't order the ECUSA to not choose a gay Bishop. Which suits him fine since if they elect a Gay bishop other parts of the aglican communion can reffuse to recognisie the ECUSA without spliting off from the central part of the Anglican comunion, thus allowing the world to see that a Gay Bishope can work.

Remeber also that to be forgiven for ones sins the Christian church belives you must first repent of them. Since Niether of the preists involved belive they have sinned in the first place they can not repent (and what a sad day it would be if they did). This makes thiere past actions relivant.

Rowan Williams I beleave is relying on time to change things. He knows that time will move things away from homophobia in the church. Remeber that he sees the church ion genral as a force for good so does not want it destroyed.

When you get to the high end of the church the battle ground will always be the words of the bible. It is not impossible to construct a perfectly legitimate argument for homosexual acts from a the bible especialy when take in context with the history of the church. The problem is that if people are unwilling to let a legitimate debate happen (And many are unwilling). It will take time for socioty to push the church hard enough and for the biggots to deminish in numbers.

It is sad we are only at this point in the 21st centuary and that rowan williams has had to back down at this time. It may mean that the advent of the first gay UK bishop will not happen till Williams resigns. I think if it will take that when the time is right he will.

Yeah, it is a real bad situation, poor Williams :-/

As numbers of evangelicals are rising, and have been for some time, (for example, some 60% of all ordinands within the Church of England are now evangelical, and all non-evangelical wings of the Church are shrinking), I think the "right" time for the Church of England is moving further and further away - it may be that the entire Church needs to fragment in order to salvage what sensible portions of it are left.

  • 1