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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

God does not need...

"God does not need prayer, religious buildings, prophets, evangelists, souls" by Vexen Crabtree (2004). Organized religion is pandering to secular, humanistic needs in a delusional way when it takes on social roles.

(Deleted comment)
In our nature we are good and bad. Much comes from upbtinging , education, parents, friends, etc,,,,,One thing we have in common is we can do good and bad.HOWEVER, as good as we are and how educated we become, we will NEVER UBDERSTAND GOD or His ways., In our own nature we are very limited.
As a believer who has tried various religions and other practices I have come to DISCOVER that truth of God is revealed by God only...Today for those who desire to ubderstand Spiritual ( the way God Almighty meant it to be)//He sent a helper and a comforter to show us..That is the Holy Spirit.To be good Gods way is to follow His instructions, the BIBLE, and it is then the Holy Spirit EMPOWERS us to carry through. This is a truth that shows what real LOVE is all about... And if there is ONE THING this world neesd , it is love....I prefer Gods love as it is the only love that is unconditional

Reply to anonymous (Anonymous) Expand
your question on........ (Anonymous) Expand

Ambigous Satanism

Congratulations on your comprehensive and very interesting website! It is obvious that you've spent much time and effort on this endeavor.

Researching Satanism has made me realize that the concept of Satanism is quite ambiguous, lacks certain logic and is hypocritical at times.
I feel that everyone should thoroughly do their own research before embarking on this adventure to the dark side.

Here's why...

#1 You write:
"Satanism is not a religion, it is the unreligion."
"One of the reasons I became a Satanist was to aid in the giving of religion a bad name (Satanism is a ludicrous example of a bad religion to many)."

yet you read and follow the Satanic Bible and it says:
"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path."The Satanic Bible, The Book Of Lucifer p52

It is not clear if Satanism is a religion, so already I have become skeptical of your concept of the "truth."

You write:
"Satan is the accuser of all gods and religions, the rebel in the world of theology, and the firm and powerful denial of god."

yet you also say:

"Satan wishes to kill god, and we feel this is a good cause. Given that gods do not exist, we're all already Satanists."

and you say numerous times throughout the site: "Satan is Not Real"

The Satanic Bible (which I have read) reverses anything that is God in both the theory and in practical rituals but if God does not exist, why would Satan "wish to kill him" Why bother saying: "Lucifer is enlightenment here and now on Earth, in Man. Christ, salvation and redemption; the self-love that enables a creative and emotional life are all within Lucifer. Lucifer has stolen 'God's' power and reveals it to us as a new truth: That your consciousness is the light of your life."

The Satanic Bible focuses so much on blasphemy and rituals based on the reversal of whatever is perceived as what Christian God wants/is. How can one hate someone or reverse what "does not exist?" Why do people want to know things like "Which is the most powerful of Satan's demons, and what is their history?" It is said that they don't exist, so why write about them, summon them or focus energy on them?

If there is no God or Satan, and humans may as well be their own Gods, why does the "Church of Satan" name exist? If humans are our own Gods, then why can't we change the name to "The Church of Man" or "The Church of Self God"? Are Satanists conforming to that name, The Church of Satan, just because that name has been around for a few years? I thought satanists did not like to conform?

You write:
"Satanic Rituals are there for good reasons. First of all, science is not able to explain everything, some things are unknown, etc, and a Satanist is not deterred from divulging in supernatural experiments"
Some of these experiments involve summoning Leviathan or some other accomplice. But again, how can one summon or see what does not exist? Why waste energy?
If they really have seen those beings, then they can no longer be Satanists, as that would mean Satan really exists.

Satanists live life to the fullest because they will die and there is no afterlife. Satanists who have seen ghosts should no longer be called satanists since they realize that something does happen when we die and that would go against Satanic beliefs.

#3 You write:
"Satanism is not about accepting people for what they are: We change people. We teach people. We do not want to become inundated with dumb-asses whom we have to spend time coaching them, rather than using them"


"Satanism means "the opposition" and epitomizes all symbols of nonconformity."

Therefore, by "changing people" and "teaching people" you are going against the Satanism rule of opposing conformity.
Just as white light religious people conform to the belief in their God, Satanists conform to not believing in any Gods.
No matter who we are, we all conform to some kind of belief.

Is it coincidence that Satan supposedly became jealous and greedy for God's power and so God kicked him out of heaven and now this concept of personal and material gain is repeated in Satanism?

You be the judge.

Re: Ambigous Satanism

It ISN'T clear if Satanism is a religion, that is true. For many, it is a philosophy and outlook on life, but for others, it is a religion. It all depends on the technicalities of how you define "religion" and how you treat it. I hardly think at affects the /teachings/ and /truths/ of Satanism. It doesn't really matter /what/ people call it, the content is still the same.

Re: Ambigous Satanism (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Ambigous Satanism (Anonymous) Expand

About Free Will

I really enjoyed your essay: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_does_not_need.html and I wanted to make a few comments on it.

The main point I would like to make is: God gave us free will.

This is the reason that He does not "put it in our heads" or force himself to us as that would be going against his Word. We have the choice to believe in Him or not to believe. We have the choice to believe that God is Science, and that we are constantly learning.

You are right when you say some people pray because of self gratification. But some people pray because they want to show God that they believe in Him and they want God to lead them in the right direction. It is a form of communication and showing someone you love them. Of course He can read our minds, but we need to prove our love. Praying does not have to be done in church either. It can be done at home or wherever you wish.

God did not choose to have people start their own religions, that was our choice, from free will. In most cases, humans fight because of how they believe, not what they believe, and that is sad. But again, this is of our own free will.

God sent Jesus to show people how to become close to God, and it was our decision to believe in Jesus' teachings. Some did, some didn't. If God would have forced it on us, again, that would go against his rule of free will. If you were God, would you like it better if everyone was forced to love you, or would it be better knowing that your people really loved and respected you by them proving it with their faith and with their actions and words?

Re: About Free Will


Free Will and God are contradictory, God did not "give us free will" but contradicts the existence of free will. God does not need us to have "free will" in order to lead moral or "good" lives, as God itself is an example of a being that cannot choose ignorance of God, or choose to do evil, and yet is a "moral" and "good" being.

(For free will & problem of Evil texts)

Re: About Free Will (Anonymous) Expand
You are right, God does not need "buildings." However, He does desire that his Children (Born-again Christians) gather together to help strengthen each other, lean on each other, and to learn/discern His word. Some may fall into a "socializing" mentality (because we are still human with human desires), but that's not the primary reson God desires Christians to gather together ... it's probably the LAST reason, if it's a reason at all. It is to build the Body of Christ up, as the church (true Christians) are the Body of Christ. On the subject of evangilists ... it's just one of the commands of God to the Christians ... that we are to take His Word to the ends of the earth. We are just happy to listen to God, that's all! Plus, we desire to spead His Good News and help lead people to salvation/heaven by accepting Jesus as their Savior. And any TRUE, BORN-AGAIN BIBLE-BELIEVING CHRISTIAN knows you don't have to evangilize to one person your whole life ... YOU ARE STILL GOING TO HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!!! Evangelizing has NOTHING TO DO WITH GOING TO HEAVEN OR NOT ... ACCEPTING JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR IS THE KEY TO GOING TO HEAVEN!!! DUH! Like I said before, don't talk about things you don't know the correct answers to. You give out FALSE INFORMATION! That's why God desires us to evangelize ... because of people like you who don't know anything about heaven/God/Jesus/Sin, etc. Stop talking about things you don't have a clue about! So, get it straight next time ... TRUE BORN-AGAIN BIBLE-BELIEVING CHRISTIANS evangelize because they LOVE PEOPLE AND DESIRE TO SEE THEM IN HEAVEN. IT'S NOT FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL GAIN! DUH! WE EVEN DESIRE TO SEE YOU IN HEAVEN. That's why all of us Christians get on here ... for that reason and that reason alone. We realize we can't MAKE you believe, but our PRAYER is that you do! We love you with the love of Jesus and just simply desire to see you in heaven and that you come to know and love God. It's TOTALLY UN-SELFISH! Plus, secondly, God commands us to. But all of us do it out of love, a Godly love. So, again, please get your facts straight before you put them in this site. Again, stick to what you know. If you don't know God, you can't talk about Him. Also, if you are not a true born-again, Bible-believing Christian, don't talk about us either ... because you don't know us or what we believe. Stay out of the "letting people know about God, etc." business. You know Satan well and he knows you well. Talk about him. :>

I can't think of a subject.

If God loves humans so much, why would there be a Hell? A place of eternal, unimaginable suffering?

Eternity is a ridiculously long time to be burning and gnashing your teeth, you know. I can't really see a good God doing that. And if Christians believe in the two eternal afterlifes, why would they ever do anything besides evangelize? If they're putting others first, wouldn't they want to stop all others from the worst fate any of us can imagine? It'd make me feel bad if I were a Christian and ever spent time at the beach or watching TV- you're losing time to save people from torture, right? Torture, forever. I mean honestly, what would 80 years be in comparison to infinite time? And that's why religion is an opiate of the masses. Keep everyone subdued and happy on earth by promising them perfection after death.

And as for the "don't talk about Christians if you aren't one" argument- I just can't find any logic there, as hard as I look. If that were true, don't talk about criminals if you aren't one, don't talk about non-Christians if you aren't one, don't talk about pirates if you aren't one, don't talk about anything besides your self, because that's all you are.


(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
'Need' is not the point.

Prayer, faith, trust, these things are as integral to humanity as is love. Everything we are , and have achieved, has come through the higher form of devotion and struggle which could only have arisen from something Eternal. Our Faith, regardless of its form. Belief in God will cease when the world ceases to exist and humanity with it. It is the ghost within the machine.

the ghost that created the machine

You are right. Belief in God WILL cease when the world and humanity cease to exist, but only because it will be replaced by true knowledge. Once it all ceases to exist, I, and many other people, will have a physical friendship with God removing the need for belief.

Did you know that prayer does not soley constitute of asking for things from God? People who only pray that way are wrong in doing so. Prayer can be broken down into 4 subjects. One of those subjects does happen to be asking God for things that we need. And I know you say that God already knows what we need and can't be cajoled into giving us something when His plan doesn't agree. This is true, God knows everything we need, everything we want, everything we will recieve, and everything we will ask for. But by asking God for these things we show Him that we depend on Him. We acknowledge that we cannot recieve anything without His blessings. God is our Creator God. Why shouldn't we depend on Him, for without Him, we have nothing. It is not selfish to ask things from God. He loves us and wants to do good things for us. But He also wants us to respect Him and know that we can only receive things from Him. That is why we must pray in such a way. The other 3 topics of prayer are adoration, confession, and supplication...all highly UNselfish forms of prayer. Adoration means to appreciate God for who He is, Confession is letting God know that we are sinners and that we must be forgiven for our sins, and Supplication is interceding for others who do not know Christ so that they too can enter into the Kingdom of God. A lot of prayer has to do with worshiping God, not taking advantage of Him.

Also, you talked about church being an unnecessary gathering. The building itself is unnecessary. Church is not a building, it's a people of God and it is absolutely necessary that the people of God meet together to worship Him. Why? Because this glorifies God. Because it proclaims to the heavens and even the people on earth that God is Holy. That God is our Savior. If there is no church, there is no God. Which brings me to my next point. When we, people of the church, get together in the name of God we do not do so soley for the pleasure of each others common interests, beliefs, and goals. We do so because the Bible says we must do so. Yes, it is pleasing to have people in our lives that we can become close to and have intimate relationships with but do you think God wants us to be unhappy? Do you think that He would want us not to love each other? The 2 most important of God's commandments are 1) love God and 2) love others. The entire Bible can pretty much be summed up in those two phrases. In love for one another, together, we love God.

Evanglism. Once again, you are perfectly correct in saying that if God really wanted to, He would just covert everyone over to what He wants and that would be that. And God could very well do that right now if He wanted to. But He doesn't for a very important reason. God is gracious and commpasionate, slow to anger, and rich in love. He does not force us to do anything we don't want to. That is His love for us. God gives us a freedom to do what ever we want. It's not to say that there are not consequences for how we choose to live but God doesn't make us do a thing. All He does is speak the truth to us and we can either follow, or not follow, it is completely our choice.

The point of the Crucifixion was not so that God could experience human life. He made human life and He already knew what it was, is, and is going to be like. No, the point of the crucifixion is the basis of Christianity. The crucifixion is love. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only son" -John 3:16. He gave us Jesus to take away our sins, He gave us a new life! Jesus came to die for us so that the burden of all of our past and future sins would be given to Him and so that we could be washed clean. This is how God can forgive us. He gave us Jesus as proof that there is a God, for once again, God does not force us to believe in Him, He only reveals things to us that we must interpret on our own.

I think you raised good points and good questions. But there is a reason for the way God works. He doesn't expect us to understand but if we believe in Him and have faith, all of our questions will be answered in full one day.

AMEN SISTER!!! Couldn't have said it any better myself. Give all the Glory to God and Christ Jesus! :>


If human's use there own understanding to figure out what god needs or doesnt need, then everyone can make up whatever his imagination leeds him to enjoy. But in reality, if we dont know anything about god except what he has taught us than he is not open for our own opinions. God is what he said he is and all we know of him is what he has sent down upon his prophets and meesengers. Its obvious he is not in need of anything and he is complete in everyway and all mighty and all knowing. The problem is us, we dont we just be of those who obey him? If we obey the true prophets and messengers and take an example of those who were before us we would surely enter paradise. I ask god to make us all of those who submit themselves to him. Ameen

Could you give me some examples of God's "prophets and messengers"? For example, I would include some of the major historical searchers of truth, Einstein, Descartes, Pythagorus, Marx, etc, as these have told us a great deal about ultimate the truth of God's world.

Why do you think God would want or need us to obey it? Why would it even care wether we "obey" things that WE think God wants? How would we even know what God wanted? By "obeying" our own made-up ideas of what we think God wants, we're only obeying our own delusions unless God itself comes and talks to us all. Which as far as I know, it never has. (And if it had, I would know!)

Could you give some examples, then, of "true prophets and messengers" and give some examples of false ones? And importantly, tell us how to judge between true and false prophets!!

Re: God (Anonymous) Expand
The body: Solid, material, observable, mix of systems ( vision, sound, calculating, mobility, self cleansing / repairing, as long as the driver is in his / her driving seat and has had no damage due to poor control or accident).
The spirit: None solid, electrical type energy source, thought, dreams, imaginative, can talk to itself without physical activity. Controls the body through the "nerve" center in the "brain".
United = a living SOUL. Parted = a spirit and a corpse. The material corps reverts back to its base condition. The none solid energy source remains the same. Energy cannot be used up. It uses material. Moves on.

There is no such thing as a "soul". How are you saying this soul "controls" your brain? And why are you saying this soul is necessary, when all the functions of consciousness are produced by the physical brain? What, exactly, are you saying this soul actually *does* apart from 'talk to itself'? Questions such as these are asked and answered on another, more relevant, webpage:


And on another:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/hh.html -> Showing how our emotions and feelings are physical in nature, and no "soul" is required to explain them.

Please take this discussion to the relevant forum! (This one is now frozen)

Hey,I don't want to claim to be an expert on anything, but in response to your point (that God doesn't need prayer, religious buildings, prophets etc.) I'd like to agree. He doesn't need any of them.

But then what does God need?

But then Jesus said that God is love and that he is our Father; from my experience of being a Christian, I am pleased to say that I have found that to be 100% true. Therefore, the question could be put, does a Father who loves his 3 year old kid (for surely in comparison to God we are not his grown up kids!)need anything from him or her.

...or isn't it more of a quesion of what can he provide for his child. His huge love for his child means that he provides him or her with expressions of love, with his material needs, with guidance, with discipline when necessary, listens to his child etc. etc.

And as Jesus put it...

9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Matthew 7:9-11

When it comes to prayer, I believe that although it seems the most pointless thing in the world, it is one of the most amazing gifts we could have. I get to come and talk to God; the maker of the universe, about all my stuff, about everything that is going on in my life. It is a chance for me to be in a relationship with my maker; to ask him to be a major part of my life. And God, amazingly!, wants us to be part of his big picture; he wants us to play a part in shaping his plans for people! Lastly, I want to tell you about my Grandad. His wife and his daughter prayed for him for roughly forty years, and finally about a year or so ago he became a Christian, and I have never seen such an amazing change in someone! God is real! God is powerful! God loves each and everyone of us undeserving human beings! God wants a relationship with us! God wants to spend eternity with us! God gave us a way! Jesus Christ!

Flipping 'eck that turned into a bit of a sermon, didn't plan to! Hehe!

God is an existing Spirit, If there wasn't a God we would not be exsiting on earth. The bible tells us that prayer is the answer, Prayer is not for God but for us so that we may become closer to him, I have been praying about getting accepted into a good college, yes God does Know my heart and know what I want in Life but the Bible says Ask and it Shall be given... You can't expect to get something if you don't ask for it. Just as if your parents know that you will do your chores, not because they are psychic or God but because you are their child and they know if they don't ask for it you will never do it.God wants you to talk to him and not ignore him, thinking everything you want will come to pass only because he knows what you are thinking.
In order to receive you have to believe Just PRAY!
And Does this Scripture Helps you?
He mtakes away the understanding of the chiefs of the people of the earth, And makes them wander in a pathless wilderness Job12:24
God is Almighty and Powerful we are not to understand somethings, but know we can not get anything without him, talking and praying to him NOT IT"
just because you can't see air doesn't mean you'll stop breathing, and because you can't see God doesn't stop you from Believing.

Abut your soul and prayer article.

I was reading your article on souls and guess what, did you realize the Bible (If you look at it properly) teaches that a body which is alive is a soul. It does not teach that we have a separate entity inside our body called a Soul. Jesus clearly stated that when we die we know nothing. It also dose not teach that when we die we go straight to heaven or hell. This is an erroneous teaching by (Sad to say) most churches. It teaches we know nothing until the resurrection and that hell is an event, not a place. It also teaches that the event is not eternal torment. The word Ever is the Greek word for EON, which means unto the appointed time. I am a Seventh Day Adventist and we have some doctrine, which I think you would like. Many other religions dont like us because we dont agree with many of their pagan adopted beliefs and believe in the pure word of God. We also believe the Bible points to the Catholic Church as the Anti Christ. The Biblical evidence is quite startling and even the Catholic church itself admits the Seventh Day Adventist church teach the Biblical truth. Its in their own Catholic cataclysms.
About prayer being selfish, that would be like saying talking to a friend who knows you well is selfish. God created language not only so we could communicate with each other but also with him. He knows what we say but do we hear him is the question. If we talk to him we will but remember, a true conversation involves not only speaking but also listening. Perhaps its the listening part God is trying to get across through prayer.


Re: Abut your soul and prayer article.

You are right, the Bible doesn't contain speak of 'souls' and even implies that, as you say, our bodies are our souls, and will be resurrected in themselves.

Try reading it (the Bible) to if if it (the Bible) has something to say about it (prayer) and why it (you) has no right or power at all to question Him (God) who created it (you). Romans 9.21

It is true God knows before you ask. But here is what you really need to know: "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life.

For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." John 3:16-17

Also know this: (Acts 2.21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall CALL on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So it is completely clear. If you speak (call) on Jesus (the name of the Lord), believing Jesus died on a cross to pay for all of your sins, your soul will be saved and you will go to Heaven when you die (here).

Otherwise you will go to hell because of your sins: (2 Peter 2.4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...

Prayer is useful!

God is all-powerful and all-knowing but he does want us to pray! Because He wants to have a relationship with us! You are only looking at God logically. He made the human brain and it is not capable of comprehending "all-powerful and all-knowing" the way that God is.

Re: Prayer is useful!

God could read all of our thoughts without us having to specify which ones are meant for it; as such, God always has a very intimate (and all-knowing) relationship with us. To say that we need to pray in order for God to get what it wants, is to limit the all-knowing nature of God. I'm sure you don't mean to be saying God is limited!

Religious Buildings

I am a Christian but I agree with you about religious buildings. God actually showed us what church should be like in the bible. It should be simple, held at homes, and not have more than 15 people. Besides, whenever Jesus went to the Synagogs (churches back then), he criticised them about what they were doing.
We don't need religious buildings, we need a place to meet.

Vexen, your paper was very good and it had some points that were very convincing, but it seems that a person should just dissolve the issue of a god, any god, wether it be an invisible one, or one of flesh. Decadence is not the path to enlighntment, the flesh is not evil, but it is not good either, it simply is. One must learn to disregard all, believe in nothing, especially a bunch of instinct driven, selfish old men and woman telling you to deny and yet embrace some satanic dogma. Doesnt it seem foolish to say rituals have no meaning as you are performing them, does not the action, wether under the pretense of umimportance or not, gain validation once it is preformed?, there is no truth brother, no christian truth, no satanic truth, no magical or mystical truth, there is no lucifarian truth, they are all empty paths.