Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

Previous Entry Share Next Entry
Vexen Crabtree 2015

Collection of critical pages on Religion and Morals

Collection of critical pages on Religion and Morals

  • 1
What has all that got to do with a sociological or informative discussion on the moral precepts of religion?

there is no good without God. Can you define for me what is good? But isnt good relative without God? Dont people see things differently in different cultures? Some cultures believe that it is a valuable trait to fight for ones country, while others (Like the quakers) feel it is absolutely wrong to fight at all, for any reason. So you see, it is impossible to be good if there is no guideline for "good". Good is variable without God so therefore so are morals. We NEED God for morality. And whats wrong with getting rewarded for morality? Just as an athlete would recieve a medal at the end of a race, we get rewarded with eternal heaven. Of course we WANT to go to heaven and that may be seen as selfish. However the feats that we accomplish getting to heaven do negate all arguments of selfishness, and as we do progess in our lives, we begin to do good for goods sake, and not for heavens sake! It comes as something natural and we feel doing good is the right thing. If God suddenly came down with a new set of commandments completly opposite of what it taught us before, then many people would feel uneasy in the obediance of these commandments, even if there was no doubt that the commandments where from God. For example. A person who had never murdered in his life would hesistate greatly if God told him to go and murder someone he just meets randomly

People DO see things differently in different cultures, and also from person to person. A violent double ex chromosome sex offender, such as the type as is sent to child psychiatrists for violence, will have a vastly different instinctive morals to an upper-class fox-hunting English aristocrat; part genetic, part upbringing, everyone has different outlooks; everyone views things in a different way.

This happens whether there are gods or not. With or without a god, peoples "guidelines" will differ. If there is a God (as you believe, now) then, as far as morals are concerned, it is AS IF there wasn't one. There are no divine morals that people tap in to; all such meditations are culturally bound; human-invented.

Your example of a new set of commandments... that's the type of thing the Christian God does, don't forget! Without such revolutionary revelations, Christianity would be the same as Judaism and Jesus would be unnecessary! So would Moses. Even in Christianity, God reveals "new" moralities; if there are "absolute" morals, God itself doesn't reveal them!

You mention the Christian Gods' way of brining in new commandments. First of all, that is irrelevant because I do no believe in Christianity. ["If there is a God (as you believe, now)" That sentence has implications that my faith will eventually end. Sorry, not gonna happen]

Yes, I accept that there are cultural and social explanations for morality, apart from religious. However, as pointed out in one other of my replies, morality of Islam must be followed as BEST TO YOUR ABILITY if it is to function. Some people will simply not be able to follow some rules of Islam, and whatever reason this is, as long as there is absolutely nothing in their power they can do to TRY to follow these laws, it is forgiven of them. Also, if you do not follow by some morals sometimes, you can be forgiven for that also, as long as you ask for forgivness. Everyone sins at some point in their lives, and there is noone that I know who has followed Islam 100%. We are humans after all, and not machines. So for different people, and different cultures, it will be harder to abide by some laws. God is just, and will make up for this difficulty in the after life. The harder your life was while following Gods laws, the better your reward will be.

And as I have just been arguing, there ARE spiritual morals that people "tap into", and these can be found in the holy Quraan.

Absolute morality, Statistics or an Enforced Will.

If reason or logic is allowed?, There can only be three options for morality.

The morality of agreement (statistical) This is what the most of us agree on.
The morality of power (an enforced will) This is what is right because I can make you do it.
The morality of God (an absolute) This is a non statistical, or non enforced will form of morality. Even God must follow this, because it is a part of God's nature.

In the first case we should either be listening to the largest groups in the world, or be having a world wide referendum on what is moral.
India and China should be among the leading forces settng morality.
Possibly the UN would run the referendum.
The problem here is what could we all agree upon.
How would statistical morality be enforced
How often do we check to see if morality has changed.
There is no individual free will, only statistical will.
In the second case whoever has the most power sets morality.
If had won the war then he was right. At the moment the US
has the most power so we should be listening to them.
The problem here is whether might is right. War sets morality?
Powerful people are not always intelligent or loving.
There is no free will, only what I am forced to have by power.
In the third case absolute morality exists.
Either God communicates it to us or
we will have to discover it by studying the nature of God.
The problem here is that if absolute morals exist then
we will all be held to them. Absolute justice/judgement exists.
There is no free will, as morality is fixed.

If we are sensible no other expanations exist. There are no gushy feeling morals. Knowledge and Science constantly change and the more we know the less we agree on. In all three cases there is no free will.

I believe the whole world is mixed up with all three versions of morality.

Will one win out in the end. We will have to wait and see.

"Absolute morals" is a misleading idea

“there is no good without God. Can you define for me what is good? But isnt good relative without God? Dont people see things differently in different cultures? Some cultures believe that it is a valuable trait to fight for ones country, while others (Like the quakers) feel it is absolutely wrong to fight at all, for any reason. So you see, it is impossible to be good if there is no guideline for "good". Good is variable without God so therefore so are morals. We NEED God for morality.”

It is only through the concept of life that the concept of value has any meaning. We can safely presume that the nonliving do not value. Therefore ALL value lies within the purview of the living. This is why life has inherent value; (there is no value without life). Life is the “well-spring” of values. “Value” is that which is valuable to the living, i.e. to you, and there can be no morals without values.

“Good” is that which aids us and helps us live a full productive and healthy life, (within discernable intellectual context and scope), and “evil” is the opposite.

Each culture interprets what particular values it keeps and religion is just another way of establishing what values are considered ‘good’, but this is not a “get out of reality free” card. Worshiping something that may wish to destroy you or considers you expendable is illogical, whether that object of worship is a ‘god’ or a society.

Following ‘godly’ dictates is not practicing morality. Morality necessitates moral choice and moral choice necessitates YOU choosing between good and evil. A ‘god’ that tells you to not think for yourself and just do what it told you to do is not an action of morality, nor is it a moral standard. A trained rat can follow the rules. A trained rat is not a moral creature. If for you to even consider whether ‘god’s’ dictate is moral or not is to question ‘god’s’ moral authority and is a “sin” (within Judeo/Christian context).

Morality is only possible without a dictatorial ‘god’ telling you what to do.

The Vampire

Morals... blah blah blah

I'll do my best to give my opninion to your numbered arguments. Notice I say opinion because I have no facts to back up my thoughts which I get from the bible.

1. you say "absolute morals are impossible." I am not sure what you mean by absolute morals but if you mean perfection then I agree. Most christians aren't good so they can get into heaven, being good does not get oneself into heaven anyways, the bible makes that very clear. God has laws and we do our best (most of the time) to obey them.

2. To your section on christian morals. You make an assumtion that parts of the bible are untrue, that is an opinion. The bible does not say that slavery is good or to hate jews. Where do you get that from?

3. Can morals exist without God. I don't think that God needs to exist for morals to exist either. Everyone can make up his or her own morals and decide for themselves what is right and wrong, that would be great. (Sarcasm implied) God does need to exist for a non subjective absolute truth to exist though.

4. GOd has no free will. Where did you get that from? who is in charge of God to tell him what he can and cannot do? God is the law, whatever he does is right because with him there is no right or wrong because he is above the law. Who will judge GOd? He has laws for us that serve our benefit. Are any one of the commandments or the teachings of christ bad for a person? Even an atheist would agree that all of them should be obeyed except for the first commandment.

5. God is Love is a inhumane statement. Well to your atheist love came about through natural processes so is just chemical reactions in the brain and therefore really has no value. Love obviously evovled over time and the more "loving" specimen survived. This would say that love has no value since it is just inherited and not chosen its like being short has true "value" to an atheist. It is a hypocritical statement you make and I don't understand how you came up with it.

6. WE are judged by our moral choices, not by our religion. Who is judging us, who has the right to decide what is right and wrong? Society? No that would be subjective for them to decide truth for the people. You imply a God...............

7. If dead infants go to heaven should theist parents selflessly sacrifice themselves to hell by killing their children? I have heard this one before. It would destroy the purpose of why we exist if were true. It is not our place to take innocent lives. Its not about numbers to God, he does not need so many people to go to heaven. It is a relationship he wants and for us to choose.

In conclusion, I believe that there exists absolute truth and that it is given to us in the bible. God created the law and he has put it in place for our own benefit. THats it, its late, Im tired. What are your thoughts?

  • 1

Log in

No account? Create an account