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Vexen Crabtree 2015

vexen

Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
vexen

Prayer

Prayer

Conclusion:

"God knows everything - everything we say in prayer, God already knows. The point of praying is definitely not to reveal things to an all-knowing God. God acts only when God knows it is good to act, the wishes of prayer can only ever be against God's will, as I have elaborated on above. So, when prayer works, how does it work? If prayer works, then it is either coincidence (you've prayed for something that was going to happen anyway) or, you knew what was best better than God did, and God intervened!. The latter is impossible. Magic, or prayers, when they are effective, must be against God's will. If you ask a Christian or a Muslim, what will they say is the magical force that acts against God's will? Satan's will. If a supernatural affect such as prayer goes against God's will, then it is Satanic. As such, prayer is either useless, or Satanic. What business, then, have theists got in praying? This is a warning to all god believers that they must be very careful of their own motives when they get together and pray for things!"

79+ comments on this also exist on a different LJ entry - click.

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Prayer

(Anonymous)
See, if you really knew God, His true desire is an intimate and personal relationship with all of us. Prayer is a form of intimate communication with Him. TRUE Christians are not to pray for selfish things (new Cadillac, lots of money, etc.) We are to pray for Godly things and things of true need. Also, He just wants us to talk to Him. He likes that. He encourages us to pray to Him, as He does like to bless us. Sometimes the answer is yes (if it is good for His plan for us). Sometimes the answer is no (not good for us). He knows all, and, therefore, knows best! Sometimes the answer is yes, but not in the way we might have wanted it. Above all, we are to pray for a more intimate relationship with Him. So, your "definition/warning" about prayer is foolish. And, as God's word states, His (God's) ways are foolish to unbelievers. You just proved that point. Again, God's Word is 100% correct! So, to all of you out there reading this ... do not look to men for answers ... look to God! He has your best interest in mind ... Believe me! I've experienced God's will, love, advise & discipline in my life. And ... it was better than any "person" on this earth ever gave me! The results, etc. were beyond human comprehension. Turn your life over to Jesus ... you will NEVER be sorry! :>

[[See, if you really knew God...]]


If I really knew ‘god’ he would exist. (Epistemology joke).



[[His true desire is an intimate and personal relationship with all of us.]]

Are you a prophet now? You presume to speak for ‘god’ and can tell us what his “desires” are?

Can’t it tell me this itself?

‘god’ would not need you to pray for it to communicate with you. You would not need to pray for an existing omniscient ‘god’ to know all you could relate anyway. Therefore prayer is not REALLY for communication, is it?



[[Prayer is a form of intimate communication with Him.]]


Ah...now I’m a prophet. See my dialogue above.




[[TRUE Christians are not to pray for selfish things (new Cadillac, lots of money, etc.) We are to pray for Godly things and things of true need.]]



I think you’re missing the point. You are not praying for ‘god’s’ sake. You are praying to fulfill your own needs and desires. Theoretically, ‘god’ does not want.



[[Also, He just wants us to talk to Him. He likes that.]]


Does he? How does he feel about your mind-reading skills? Yahweh told us not to suffer a witch to live. Should we be wondering about you?


[[He encourages us to pray to Him, as He does like to bless us.]]


No, in the case of the bible, illogical sheep herders and tribal war lords passed down oral tradition that was eventually written down as hearsay testimony (i.e. testament) about what THEY presumed ‘god’ wants. How reliable is their testimony? A book cannot be both testimony (testament) AND the “word of ‘god’”. If ‘god’ possessed Bob and wrote the Book of Bob, then this would not be the testimony of Bob. Either the bible is the word of ‘god’ or it is testament. It cannot be both. Is the bible not testament?


[[Sometimes the answer is yes (if it is good for His plan for us). Sometimes the answer is no (not good for us). He knows all, and, therefore, knows best! Sometimes the answer is yes, but not in the way we might have wanted it. Above all, we are to pray for a more intimate relationship with Him. So, your "definition/warning" about prayer is foolish.]]


I respectfully disagree.

What would be foolish is to pray to a ‘god’ that already knows everything, including what is “written in your heart”. If you REALLY didn’t want ‘god’ to change what IT wanted to do rather than what you want it to do, then you would simply wait for it to do what it is going to do anyway (when it already knows what is in your heart). You pray because you want a favor. You want ‘god’ to stop running the universe long enough to help you find your missing cat. That’s a form of arrogance IMO.



[[And, as God's word states, His (God's) ways are foolish to unbelievers.]]


It’s been said that wearing ball caps makes men bald. (Or is it that balding men wear ball caps more often?)

Is it that ‘god’s’ ways are foolish to unbelievers or is it that nonbelievers find such claims foolish?




[[You just proved that point. Again,]]


No, your statement is meaningless. The ways of Jabberwocky cannot be known to you, and you don’t know what I’m talking about, therefore you prove Jabberwocky true!!!

If ‘x’, then ‘x’, therefore ‘x’!!


[[God's Word is 100% correct!]]

If you are referring to the bible, then you are wrong. Consider the ascension. All of the synoptic gospels disagree with one another, as does John, and Paul disagrees with all the above mentioned. Truth must be consistent and non-contradictory, therefore the bible is not true.


[[So, to all of you out there reading this ... do not look to men for answers ... look to God!]]


‘X’ is not an answer, it is a variable with an unknown value.

[[He has your best interest in mind ... Believe me!]]


“Believe (you)”, this is what it all boils down to isn’t’ it?


That which requires faith cannot offer support for its own claims. If it could, it wouldn’t require faith.

“Have faith in my belief” is another way of saying “have perfect belief in what I believe?”


Why should I do this?

The Vampire
LOGOS



Re: Prayer

(Anonymous)
I don't ask God for favors, etc. I ask that His will be done in my life and those I love. How is that selfish? You don't know what you are talking about re the Bible. I can't explain it to you because you DON'T BELIEVE. I pray that you do ... then you will have all your questions answered. It's just that simple.

[[I don't ask God for favors, etc. I ask that His will be done in my life and those I love.]]

Why wouldn't his "will be done" anyway without you asking for it? Is he omni-benevolent or isn't he?


[[How is that selfish?]]


For reason's I've already outlined. Praying to 'god' cannot be for communion (communication) because you and he already have a "hotline" if he "knows what is in your heart" and mind and is omniscient, and if he's omni-benevolent then there is nothing to ask him to do because he's going to do the ultimate good anyway, right?

So then, to pray must be to request a personal wish that IS NOT the best all-around benevolent plan for everyone. That would be "selfish" and a relative evil.

[["You don't know what you are talking about re the Bible."]]


I'm not claiming that the bible says that praying is evil. I'm taking (and so has vexen) a few attributed characteristics of biblical Yahweh, aka 'god', and applying logic to them. The extent that the consequence differs from Judeo/Christian dogma is how far the dogma strays from logic and reason. Does faith need to be reasonable? No. It doesn't, but I think it's noteworthy to point out how unreasonable it can be.


[["I can't explain it to you because you DON'T BELIEVE."]]


That sounds like Saint Paul's idea of the "regenerate mind" and that nonbelievers are "depraved".


How does belief affect objective existence? How would me possessing personal bias toward believing a point help me see the actual truth of a statement rather than a biased understanding of it?

I don't ask the two questions above as much for argumentative purposes as much as to give you something to ponder and meditate over. Would you do that for me please?

:-)



[["I pray that you do ... then you will have all your questions answered. It's just that simple."]]


Thanks for your prayers, because I understand that in theist-speak, that means you are wishing me well. However my questions ARE answered to my satisfaction.

It's just that simple.

:-)

Thanks for writing.

The Vampire
LOGOS


Re: Prayer

(Anonymous)
Your truly a humorous guy. I think you have a little mind that thinks it is a big mind!
I am not much of a Christian and most of them would not claim me but the atheists would not take me in either for sure. I say that to say I am not really defending anything here.
Just got amused at a little guy jumping up and down raging and roaring. Lies, contradictions, on and on. Everything is just made up. Lies and lies and more lies.
A little example. The ascension, you say all the writers told a different lie. That is like saying two newspapers that reported an event and their facts did not appear to agree were all liars. Even the hardest skeptics in the most prestigious halls of academia would tell you that you confuse aspects with lies.
That is just a tiny example of how you are trying to deal with very complex situations with very oversimplified solutions. Make it happen, just jump up and down, try and be witty, call yourself a vampire and that will just make it happen.
Humorous. As are admittedly many of the Christian replies. You don’t know the first thing about thinking with true objectivity, you just think you do and that is so dangerous to all. Most so called Christians have little idea why they believe what they believe, they just got it way back there from Mom and Dad. Little clones. But you guys are just as “clonish”! Got your ideas from some nut on campus or something equally as stupid, it sounded good and now you are an apostle setting the world right! The biggest part of you from both sides have never really stepped outside your bias to examime the other side with fairness. I am talking about what is relevant to “is there a God or is there not a God.” The Satanism deal, I admit I could not even try and give that a fair shake! There are just some things with such LITTLE credibility! Sorry. Kind of humorous however….
All well, little minds that think they can really think. It’s all a shame! Oh start jumping up and down now…. There you go. That proves it… By God that proves it….. I’ll sharpen my wit say cleaver little things and dust my hands………on and on and on and on you goooooooooo.
Wishywashy@aol.com Truly!

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