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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015




"God knows everything - everything we say in prayer, God already knows. The point of praying is definitely not to reveal things to an all-knowing God. God acts only when God knows it is good to act, the wishes of prayer can only ever be against God's will, as I have elaborated on above. So, when prayer works, how does it work? If prayer works, then it is either coincidence (you've prayed for something that was going to happen anyway) or, you knew what was best better than God did, and God intervened!. The latter is impossible. Magic, or prayers, when they are effective, must be against God's will. If you ask a Christian or a Muslim, what will they say is the magical force that acts against God's will? Satan's will. If a supernatural affect such as prayer goes against God's will, then it is Satanic. As such, prayer is either useless, or Satanic. What business, then, have theists got in praying? This is a warning to all god believers that they must be very careful of their own motives when they get together and pray for things!"

79+ comments on this also exist on a different LJ entry - click.

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"Function" of Prayer

Prayer allows us to enter into Relationship with God, something that wasn't touched upon. One needs to have a personal experience of prayer to understand it, and I'm amazed at how insightful atheists/agnostics/Satanists/etc. are at pointing out a lot of shoddy thinking and desire in relation to prayer, because people often do pray incorrectly or for the wrong reasons. We don't pray just to get results, just as we're not in a relationship just for sex or so we can use another. We work together, and God works in a subtle, unmeasurable way with us when we're cooperative and willing. Our prayer is the wordless opening of the heart to the universe, to God, to everything. We can also listen to our internal voice for guidance - our conscience, God, whatever you would like to call it. So prayer is a bit introspective, is an aesthetic, is psychological, etc. To simply reduce prayer to an attempt to control and to try to scientifically study it by controlling it is to miss the meaning and significance of prayer in our daily lives. Assuredly though, I give great compliments to all challenging thinkers because the mutual dialogue helps us all to become more understanding, and I have significantly modified my views of prayer over the years due to such free thought. Thank you!

One thing I want to point out that I got from reading J. Krishnamurti is that all certain knowledge is tied to past experience; thus, to say that God is "all-knowing" would be saying God knows about everything that happened in the past. In life, we experience Uncertainty and Mystery; God is mysterious and has some uncertainty, if God is to be considered Alive. I think it's most important to consider God an immeasurable mystery; that's what infinity is, unboundedness, and these qualities such as "omni-whatever" are seriously lacking. You cannot measure the measureless.

Re: "Function" of Prayer

Firstly, thank you for your comments and intelligent reply. So, take my disagreements below in the kindest way, for I respect that you, like me, are committed to investigating and uncovering the truth through careful thinking.


It seems that a 'relationship with god' must merely be from our, limited, point of view. Or, for believers in god, that is. It seems that if you believe in something, you can claim to have a 'relationship' with it if you spend periods of time meditating on that idea. But, I wouldn't say that that makes the underlying object a more valid idea or theory. It merely makes the practice psychological.


You said: "Our prayer is the wordless opening of the heart to the universe, to God, to everything. We can also listen to our internal voice for guidance - our conscience, God, whatever you would like to call it."

Which, to me, sounds more like meditation. How do you differentiate therefore between introspection, reflection and meditation (which are all surely worthwhile), and 'prayer'? If it is the same as meditation, which its psychological and spiritual overtones, then why call it something else?


God, as the creator of time and space, knows all the past and all the future because it is eternal and outside of time; it doesn't see "forward" from the present, nor "back" from the present... it sees all existence, all time, in an absolute way, because it created the entire ensemble from beginning to end. Your comments about uncertainty seem to contradict the idea of a creator god.


God might best be considered an immeasurable uncertainty, but, I would rather consider that (as there is no god) the unvierse itself has some of those qualities. (Try "Devotion to the Beautiful Universe We Live In" by Vexen Crabtree (2007))

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