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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

The Christian God of the Bible is Evil

The Christian God of the Bible is Evil: Yet another look at the 'evil verses' in the Bible, plus arguments that God must be Evil, if there is a God.

If god were actualy evil I would contend that Life would be alot worse. God being genrally uncareing is more likley, or possibly caring but not to the exstent that he is prepared to ruin what ever his game/exsperiment is.
Certainly though to describe him as good or conciensous would appear to be wrong in amny ways*.

*if you go by the holy books of the major religons.

I agree with all that... the statement that if there was actually an evil god, things would be much worse makes sense... and is the rightful opposite of the argument that if there was a good god, things would be much better... in reality, the conclusions I give on my "If there is a God, it is an Evil God page is that it is more sensible to assume that if there is a god, it isn't concerned with morality, nor with Humans in particular... ie, it not homocentric, and it is amoral (amoral=not moral, and not immoral either).

some rambly ponderings

I'm interested by this line:

"Recognizing Satan as the personified meta-figure of reality is self-affirming, life-affirming, positive, honest and clarifying."

And so I followed some links to get a better idea of the imagery. I definitely believe that to truly accept and embrace life, we HAVE to say yes to the darkness, the suffering, and the death. I don't agree in good-evil dichomoties, if anything all I can see is you either open up to joy and pain, or you close down and numb to all of it.

Satan is interesting because he strikes me as kind of 'god's shadow'. all the nasty bits of existance have been kind of passed off onto him. When did the notion of satan come into existance anyway? Is he mentioned in the bible or is it mythological lore? What I really like is how the typical cloven-hoof image is basically a twist on the nature god Pan, and thus it's easy to see how this condemnation of Satan goes hand in hand with condemnation of the body/nature/carnality/lust.

In my own searchings and readings, the "personified meta-figure" imagery that helped me grasp it all in a new way came more from goddess symbols. The same goddess is often shown with multiple different aspects from mother to demonic looking destroyer and everything in between..also there is the link with nature. Plus the understanding of cycles, the necessity of death followed by rebirth.. in fact I was struck a while a go that the whole jesus story is a kind of watered-down version of this motif. I really think the whole concept of evil/darkness/chaos/nature/women(?) as being something to combat and squash has been very destructive and IS related to the monotheistic religions (which all seem to come from the same place anyway? funny how they are engaged in religious wars all the time...)

I still see the use of Satan as an intesting symbol..is it deliberatly meant to be antagonistic towards God/christians/etc? Also I was wondering what it is about this concept that makes it different from the goddess-imagery, and I think it comes down to that attitude of deliberate rebellion and self-generating/determining life. The flaw with goddess based religions is they can kind of suck everything into the ongoing cycles and not allow for individual creativity/will...kind of like the overprotective mother who doesn't let her children go. There seems to be something about Satan which is encompassing of humanity as well as 'divinity' - so perhaps more satan is jesus' shadow? hmm.. instead of the "yes father I will do your will" more of "fuck you I want the power/stuff for myself"?

anyway I'm not sure where this is all going, just sharing some thoughts. I do enjoy seeing you tackle monotheism head on..it's a bit more complex and challenging than people seem to think. It strikes me as a big tangled mess of mythologies and dogma, and most of all denial and control. Do you ever try showing your arguements to christians/jews etc? does it ever get a decent reaction?

- Cat

Re: some rambly ponderings

>anyway I'm not sure where this is all going,

actually what would be nice is to here more about what you mean by the recognising satan bit, and how it helps give you those things.. and does that one image encompass everything, how does it integrate in the light/nuturing/fluffy aspects or does it actually say it's ALL pain/darkness in disguise?

also scuse all my bad spelling :)

here goes

Maybe there is no justification for the existence of evil except that it had no other choice? 'Evil' sounds pretty abstract anyway. At least, if I had to choose between existence and non-existence, I would inevitably have chosen the former, whether it was moral or not. God may or may not exist, it makes little difference. At least for moral, it doesn't, since morals are man-made standards for men to follow. No god in his right mind would care for morals.

If there are gods, they must be hiding from us. There's no need to blame an abstract or divine creature for everything either. Not when god didn't need to create such a thing as 'evil'. We managed to do that for ourselves, didn't we? I hardly think Nature considers her earthquakes and tornadoes evil. So, it's a point of view. It's even a HUMAN point of view, a matter of perception. Not that I don't have the slightest idea as to what's 'right' or 'wrong'. I just can't tell if it's been imprinted upon my genes through generations of selective breeding, or if it's a logical consequence of my upbringing, or what. Probably some of both. I perceive my "morals" as pure instinct.

As for Christianity:
I still think it's a little too much to ask me to wait until after I die to know if there is a god, and still 'serve' this potentially fictional being, not knowing whether it cares or what it'll do to me IF it cares. If it turns out that I am completely wrong, and that when I die I suddenly find myself burning in Hell, I will deal with that then. There are limits to precaution.
I also think all this stuff about infinity is just boasting. Why can't god be infinitely logical and reasonable too? If it is so great as to be INFINITE...well, duh! Besides, infinity is just another abstract... if god's so 'infinite' in all he does, why would he care what I (or a couple of Cro-Magnons like Adam and Eve,) do with our genitals? If I was an infinite being, if I had infinite power and endless influence, I would have never cared about what little people on a tiny little planet made of their short lives. But hey, maybe he got power-mad. If so, he must have gotten infinitely power-mad. That sucks. Especially because of the existence issue, which has come to its natural consequence so that god is now going through an existential crisis.

A priest I met once, argued that since the universe exists, someone had to create it. This he considered to be valid proof that there is a god, or a creator if you want. He had little faith in the modern conviction that the universe came into being as a result of some unexpected event. And even if that's what happened, he said, it would be too late to do anything about it now. God or no God; if it's human it only gives credibility to the Satanic thought that every man is a god. If it's infinite it must be the universe itself, and it's obvious that the universe complies to none of the theological descriptions of god (that I have seen or heard or read about,) cold and indifferent as it seems. If god is indeed a spiritual being, or some other absurd creature that can see us all from its vantage point on a cloud in the sky, for example Xenu, the criminal master-mind in scientology-mythology... well, then we're all screwed.

I was going to comment but it would just be one of those "you're preaching to the choir here" replies. At some point, the question of whether *God* is evil doesn't figure it into it if one doesn't postulate the existence of a *God* in the first place, and argument of evil is rather moot.

However, I enjoyed your essay. :)

Yeah, it's far more sensible to first ask, "could there be a god of any type?" *before* going on to wonder what the subtle properties of God might be!

But, as many people assume the existence of God or come to believe in it/them in some way, I can still write to those people and hopefully inspire some thoughts.

My "sensible refrains" on the linked essay If there is a God, it must be an Evil God" (you've commented on it already! :-) ), state that:

a) It makes more sense that God is not actually concerned with morality at all


b) It makes even more sense not to believe in any gods in the first place, let alone "good" or "evil" ones.

no subject (Anonymous) Expand

God created...

God created the bad things to test the souls and spirits of all of us. some people choose the yin over the yang and some choose the other. but i imagine we all would do almost the same thing given each other's situations.
life is a painful existence for everyone here on earth in one way or another. but a test. this life is but a grain of sand.
i believe God watches over all of us. we would be if it wasn't for Him.
some people who profess about God and the bible are some of the most evil people on earth. and i imagine there are some people who "pray to satan" are some of the greatest people alive who would do anything for anyone.
there are good "bad" people and bad "good" people. religious satanism christian bullshit is a wash anyway. there are good and bad spirits and they come in all shapes, sizes, colors and from many different beliefs.
do unto other as you would have done unto you. each life we live is the past lifes karma. heaven and hell are vacation spots. and they're real.
nothing is forever but forever and ever.

Re: God created...

God does not need to test us with evil or pain is a page that is a response to your opening statement. It doesn't make sense that God needs to "test" anything, as God knows the results of any test without actually having to do them.

Re: God created... (Anonymous) Expand

Where did satan come from and is he mentioned in the Bible?

Satan is real and it was mentioned that he is sort of a shadow of God. Satan, according to the old testament, was God's right hand angel. The most beautiful and powerful angel in existance. He was creator of music and rhythm. Over time, he began to get full of himself and think that he was just as good as God. He convinced himself and about a third of all the angels that exist that he was actually the one to be worshipped and not God. God said (not in these words) "I think not" and cast Satan and a third of all angelic host out of heaven to hell. This became his dwelling place along with the earth which is sometimes called his kingdom. He hates God. He has extremely strong super natural powers as do all demons and angels, and he wants to take as many people away from God as he can. Hence the ever looming battle between good and evil.

Many people say that it is foolish to believe in God and do what the Bible says to do. I have one statement for them. If I do what God wants and I worship him and try to live a life according to his plans, and I am wrong - then when I die, the worst that will happen is people will say he was a good man. He did so many good things. If I am right to believe him and worship him , then I gain life eternal in a place that is unimaginable, yet described as amazing in the Bible. If I choose NOT to follow God and do all those things and I am wrong, alot of people will view me as possibly an okay guy that and I will go on to no existance. If I don't believe in god and I am wrong - I spend an eternity in the same hell that satan does. A place where misery never ends. Where we are completely seperated from God and everyone else. Where lonliness and suffering are eternal. And give this some thought. If you were an eagle and you flew from the moon to the earth and picked up one grain of sand from florida and flew it back to the moon, and each one way trip took a million years, and you did it again and again until you took all the sand from florida, then you moved to death valley, then when it was gone, myrtle beach, then all the beaches in Hawaii, then you moved to the middle east and africa and did the same thing until all the sand was gone, you have just only BEGUN to live out eternity. Where will YOU spend yours? In Heaven with our God, or in Hell forever seperated from everyone and everything except demonic beings and suffering?

A simple prayer fixes it all. Take a moment to Pray - Lord I am a sinner and I realize it. I choose now to accept you and make you Lord of my life. Come into my heart and live and wash all my sins from existance and start me fresh right now. Thank you Lord.

If you did this, find yourself a good Bible based chruch and start going. Get involved, read your bible and learn all you can about the kind of life God wants you to live. It is that simple.

It is YOUR Choice but we will ALL end up in one of Heaven or Hell.

God Bless

Re: Where did satan come from and is he mentioned in the Bible?

I thank GOD for the knowledge and courage he has given you.I agree with your writings and pray that GOD will reveal hmself to all that will accept him.
GOD bless you and hold you in the palm of his hand.


I find it interesting the one sided view being given here.GOD has given man free will.GOD has also given the bible as an instruction manual to prepare for heaven.At least as i see it.It is mankind that has chosen to act in opposition to the instructions given.Satan certainly has a hand in this as Satan hates mankind and does not want us in heaven with the LORD.There would be no pain and suffering if two simple commandments were followed.Paraphrased:love GOD with all your heart and love thy neighbour as yourself.It seems more of a cop out to say GOD is evil.Then it is not the fault of the individual.

God is NOT Evil

God is merciful, patient and loving. However, if you are a non-believer/enemy, you get His wrath. Maybe you have mistaken His wrath for evil???? Eh???? Just take a look at Israel. God chose them and has a "special" love/plan for them; however, He does discipline them for disobedience. But, more importantly, God's wrath reins down upon those who try to hurt her (Israel/Jews). Sounds like a typical loving father, doesn't it? He disciplines those who are His, but "wacks" their enemies. Good parent, not an "evil" one. As the Bible says, "If God is for you, who can be against you." :>

Re: God is NOT Evil

So, before Christianity was even invented, do you think that EVERYONE got God's wrath? What a nice God you believe in!

Re: God is NOT Evil (Anonymous) Expand

Jesus was a Racist .


Jesus was a racist . He openly called that those who were not jews were dogs ( He used that word as in those times calling anyone a dog was an offense ). It was when a aunt of son girl that was sick went to ask Jesus to cure her and he responded in a very openly offensive way calling her dog because She was not a jew and to get his favor She was forced by Jesus to incriminate herself as to recognize She was really a dog .
Jesus used his so called powers to extorsion the good feelings that people were having of themselves and if that will have been in this times making them violate the fith amenmend that protect people of not having to incriminate themselves by anyone or even in Courts of Law .
My name is Orestes , I am sick and tire of hear Christians to said and say that people must pardom their enemies and to see the hatred in Christians even to they own self , so how can they have the disgusting believe that somebody who really believe in goodnes and justice can fall to believe such hipocresies ?

Re: Jesus was a Racist .

Before you bash chrisians make sure you have your facts strieght there was no "goth amendment" in bc or early ad and the women you say Jesus called a dog he healed her and said by your faith you are healed he dud not call her a dog and if you read the bible all of it Jesus does not call thoughs who army Jews dogs he argued with the Jews more than he did the Gentiles and he sent his disiples to the Gentiles because the Jews wouldn't listen to him and the non Jews believed more than the Jews do allitle resurch before you post bull crap that you know nothing about

Interesting argument. But I disagree. If God were evil things would be MUCH worse. The refutation goes something like "the good we see in the world is only possible by the latent "love" left in the world. (ie--- a mothers love for a child, joy, etc...) If God were evil, there would be no "good" for us to experience, as it would not have been made possible in the first place.
Having come from a past of what can only be described as demonic influenced depression I have a hard time saying that God is Evil.
I have become become very aware of the injustices of this world, and also our disposition to hypnotism and deception...(ie Benny Hinn) I am also convinced that most of the 'Bad' that has occurred in my life is as a result of my own actions. Not to blame myself for everything, but given the choice to respond to love and truth-- so that they bear fruit in my life, I have many times witnessed a amazing disposition to go against such things and wallow in useless self destructive behavior. Not to mention paranormal activity that has been without fail deceptive and never truly out to benefit me as an end game. Again my nature (sinful I presume, which shows my prejudice) always seems to want to revert to destruction, even though I have witnessed spiritual freedom in myself that is clearly a result of the truths presented in the Gospels. Its seems crazy even to me, especially when I see so much evil done by mankind in the name of God,
The seemingly harsh God of the Old Testament in no way justifies any of the sins committed by the so-called church (the crusades for example), but as history tells us, mankind loves to hide his evil by telling us it was ordained by God.




the problem with the problem of evil

If as the Christian argues that God is all good, then it follows that all he does is good and what he allows he has a higher purpose. You make the mistake in putting your own personal morality (which is relative) in the argument making it universal. To have absolute morality, you must have an absolute law giver. Therefore, the problem of evil proves the existence of God. A more precise argument is: There is no proof either side, the Bible says God reveals himself, therefore becasue of lack of revelation the God of theism is false.


Re: Not all goo people go to Heaven

In reality, evil and suffering are relative. What might seem bad (a death) could have positive knock-on effects in the long run. It is only us humans who have personal interest in our own lives and species that classify certain chemical reactions (cancers) as bad and others (anti-biotics) as good. I am sure from a bacterial point of view, anti-biotics are bad! In reality, the Universe does not consider what is "good" or "bad" but merely adheres to the natural physical laws: they are the cause of earthquakes and floods.

The problem of evil is that it contradicts the existence of god (a perfectly good god wouldn't have created the possibility of evil). It is hardly evidence for God.

Not all goo people go to Heaven

I first had problems with the idea of Christianity and who goes to Heaven or Hell when I was about six or seven. I realized that the nicest people in my family were non-christians and the most evil people in my family are professed christians. And they think themselves better than my non-christian family members.

So from an early age, I've had real problems with the Biblical God's idea of who should deserve punishment. It seems to me that it has little to do with being a good person and more to do with kissing God's feet.

Good in the World

Aquinas' five ways has an interesting proposal for the existence of God - the hierarchy or grades of goodness in the world infers a God. So, the interesting thing is that there are good things or experiences or pleasures in the world. Hence, the existence of evil is via the traditional way an absence or lack of good. In this manner, evil is explained rationally. Now when one uses the authoratative texts, one cannot ignore the literary techniques and conventions of the times plus the responses of 'God' these authoritative authors used are intimately based on their own experiences. So, when God incites David to count the Israelites, it merely serves as an explanation for the author. A much more satisfying literary text is the Book of Job. There, clearly, the answer to evil ultimately rests with a personal confrontation or meeting with God. Personally, the explanation seems rational: the expert knows more than the non-expert. Will this rational answer satisfy emotional demands? Probably not. But at least there is a rational account of evil.

oh my lands...

Your website about an "evil God" is ridiculous and ignorant. You are taking things out of context and twisting it around to fit your image of who you think God is.

Re: oh my lands...

So how about some counter-arguments then?

Re: oh my lands... (Anonymous) Expand
In the last days, good will be called evil and evil will be called good