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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree, LS Meet

Islam and Unbelievers

Islam and Unbelievers: Convert, Subjugate, or Die: What the Qur'an says the attitude of Muslims should be to non-Muslims.

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Currently trying to read the Koran, Qur'an whetever.

But Jonah was a bitch of a surah, and just got me angry, so have paused.

I keep planning to read the Q'Ran but don't think I can because I'll get angry and want to throw it at people screaming "how can you base your life on this outdated, racist, sexist, self contradicting crap?" (bit like when I read the Bible ;p)

But then I feel anyone who is happy to blindly follow documents several thousand years old - especially if they've never read it in the original language - very mad and at worst, very dangerous.

Though Christianity also puts a great emphasis on conversion, even within itself such as the slaughter of Catholics and C of E depending on who was on the throne in Tudor times...

I find it offensive when people say that I'm being racist when I'm not. I am outspoken about how vile and cruel I find Halal butchery, it's just absolutly disgusting how those animals are treated and there is no need to kill animals the way they do (possibly in the desert 2000 years ago when electrocution wasn't an option...) - even battery farmed animals at least get killed vaguely humanely - yet apparantly I'm being racist for saying the animal rights protesters should be targetting Halal butchers rather than scientists. And of course the Asian guy who told me I was racist because I wouldn't go out with him, despite being on a bus to Glen's and the fact my boyfriend before is part Asian...

Now I'm ranting and will stop. I hate religion!

*pats head reassuringly*

I've got a load of text on Halal slaughter, somewhere... I agree, anyway.

I get annoyed with religion too, Richard Dawkins is my hero :-)

Your Attitude

Why do you only have a problem with Halal butchers? Jewish (kosher) meat is produced in the same way. Does the fact that it is 'open season' for insulting Muslims have anything to do with it?

Also, it is quite interesting that without even reading the Quran, you have decided that it will make you angry. You also say that you may want to scream and throw books at people. This makes you sound, to borrow your words, 'very mad and at worst very dangerous'.

Re: Your Attitude

The above message was in reply to spangle_kitten however the site posted it somewhere else. My name is rosie by the way. Don't have an account so have to click anonymous.

For the record two of my close friends, and one of my closest, are Muslim.

I have a problem with the meat industry in general. I'm a very strict vegetarian. I hate any meat that causes unnecessary suffering.

For goodness sake though, you are totally drawing assumptions about me, if you had any clue about me you'd understand my turns of phrase and the way I say things. It's called a turn of phrase...not a violent threat *rolls eyes*

And yes, I do get angry reading most religious texts - mainly because I believe that many things they say are deepy beautiful and I read them and get angry about the way extremists read them and turn them into something ugly and kill people because of that. I'm talking about all religions here.

I hope you've read my user info and my attitude towards people.

I'm not a racist at all, I have a problem with people with a prejudicial attitue, and judging by the way you talk I'd certainly say you're a racist and you're too much of a coward to even reveal who you are.

Minor nitpick in what is otherwise an excellent article: It's actually *Robert* Spencer, and he has a wonderful website "Dhimmiwatch" at http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

Another person you should read is B'at Yeor.

Oh damn, yeah Colin Spencer is the author of "Vegetarianism", previously released in the UK as "The Pagan's Diet"... I've caught myself getting their names mixed up before. Will correct it, but may be some days before I can upload files. Thanks.

Vegetarianism is not necessarily paganism. In fact, many pagans feel that the whole cyclical process and connection with nature (and thus animals) should elicit a deep enough understanding of the interdependence and sacrifical nature of animals in regard to humans, even in terms of nutritional sustenance. At least, this is what I remember learning years ago. Vegetarianism is probably more closely connected to Buddhism than any other religion, IMHO. ;)

I got the name of the book wrong anyway, it was actually 'The heretic's feast'. However, in classical times vegetarianism was known as 'the pythagorean diet', and as pythagoras was a Roman pagan, early Christians called it 'the pagan diet'.

So the name is for historical reasons, rather than a case of modern-day religious pigeon-holing!

You're right, Buddhism does have strong vegetarian trends but so does all forms of Hinduism; and Egyptians were sometimes vegetarian too, so we don't know (nowadays) what 'religion' should most be associated with vegetarianism.

Perhaps in the modern Western world, 'fad diets', 'neurosis' and 'social ego' are all closer associates of vegetarianism than religion is; only after that do we get to pragmatism (i.e., those that are forced to be vegetarian due to biological problems)!

Ahh, I see. Well, probably anyone who wasn't a Christian back in those days was called a Pagan. ;)

I was talking more about modern days, but whatever. :)

These days it seems many people are vegetarian either due to concerns about animal welfare ("be kind to animals; don't eat them") or environmental reasons and the belief that eating meat is not good for humans. On the flip side, there are also people who cannot consider a vegetarian diet due to other restrictions that make it impossible to get enough protein otherwise. But yeah, it seems religion rarely enters the equation on this anymore.

The Quran is not in your reference list

If I was going to do a piece on a religion and put their religious book in the title, I would actually take a look at that book. Your sources contain random books which appear to be very biased. What makes you think The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam is a trustworthy book and not just some book by someone who hates Muslims and would write anything against them?

Convert, Subjugate, or Die

Any so called "religion" that preaches murdering non believers should be removed from the face of the earth, regardless of age or gender. It cannot be permitted at all, ever.

Re: Convert, Subjugate, or Die

Yeah agreed, along with the sheepish mindsets that allow superstition to be institutionalized. Education and science education needs to be bettered!

I would not want to make comments about something I read here say on, so I have been reading the Quar'an on-line lately. I read it with an open mind as I would any subject. To say the least it is horrifying! That people could be brainwashed into thinking murder, torture, raping, stealing, and lying are all thinks good as long as they are done for their god is appalling! It may be even worse to think a group of people thought this was a good idea to put down in the first place. I'm glad all the "prophets" are not like Muhammad. The world's population might be much less if there were more people following such ideas!
It is also sad to think just how many Muslims know what the Quar'an actually says, due to it being written in a language that in most countries is not understood. I dare say many would not follow such ideas if they knew their religion was based on such terrible ideas.
One odd thing I see on these discussion forums is that there are no where near as many Muslims debating the original points made about Islam compared to the amount of Christians making comments about the topics brought up about Christianity. I see many instances of verses brought up in defense against comments made about Christian beliefs, but not much in defense against arguments that attack the Quar'an. Anyone want to comment on this? Can the original arguments brought up in these posts be countered by the Quar'an, or is the original poster right about is theories?


The Quran is no ordinary Book

The Quran is not to be read like any other book. You need to be guided. It is true that there are many Muslims in the world who do not speak Arabic. Their education of the Quran begins from childhood, with learning to read the Arabic in the Quran and to memorize some of the verses. This is then followed by learning the meaning of the Quran through translations. The education of a Muslim on the understanding of the Quran is one that is guided by teachers and elders. Even the adult Muslim is guided in the understanding of the Quran and he MUST seek the aid of the learned. So,if indeed you seek to understand, I would suggest you first read a good translation such as 'The Meaning of the Holy Quran' by Abdullah Yusof Ali. Most Muslims are confused and appalled at the fact that many westerners think that the Quran tells them to murder, torture, rape, steal and lie to please God. Where did that come from? You must read and understand the circumstances in which the word of God (hence the verses) was passed down to the Prophet and these are NOT in the verses as read in the Quran but in the traditions/history as recorded at that time. There is a verse on killing the enemy which was the word of Allah that came to the Prophet at a time when he was about to engage an enemy intent on annihilating the Muslims. In another verse, Allah says O Prophet when you do divorce women, divorce them at the prescribed periods and count accurately their prescribe periods. There are many more on family values, contracts, progeny which seldom make it to the casual forums. Prophet Muhammad preaches a religion that holds knowledge paramount. Even Muslims without knowledge are bound to transgress. Why is there no defence of the Quran you say? The Quran is a book that has been protected by Allah for centuries. No matter what misconceptions that have arisen, those who seek knowledge will understand it. Those who continue to focus on the verses of killing and murder and say that is all the Quran is about may never see the light.


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