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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

Christianity vs. Astronomy

Christianity Versus Astronomy:


Copernicus (1473-1543) enraged the Church by writing that the Earth might orbit the Sun. Christian theology holds that the great scheme of God revolves around Humankind; God's only son is a human, God created the Earth and all other animals for Mankind (Genesis 1:28 etc), and the destruction of creation centres around events occurring on planet Earth, to Humans. It was deeply challenging to Christians to face the facts that the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe. Also challenging were other basic facts of astrology; that the universe is massive, the Earth only one of many planets, and the likely fact that there is life elsewhere in the universe too.

[... Conclusion reads:]

Scientists had to suffer torture, silencing, imprisonment and death at the hands of Christians who didn't agree with newly discovered facts about the world. Christianity lost the first battle with astronomers who realized that, contrary to what Christians asserted, the Sun did not orbit the Earth, and that the Universe doesn't seem to be designed specifically for humankind. Copernicus (1473-1543), Kepler (1571-1630), Galileo (1564-1642), Newton (1643-1727) and Laplace (1749-1827) all fought battles against the Church when they published scientific papers challenging religious orthodoxy. Bible verses were all the theories Christians needed; and Joshua 10:12-13, 2 Kings 20:11, Isaiah 38:8 and Isaiah 30:26 all contradicted astronomers. But through intelligence and clever politics, truth gradually won out over dogma, and the Church retreated... only to go on to fight similar ignorant battles, and violently impose dogmatic errors, in the arenas of physics, biology and philosophy.

Without such interference from theists, science would have been more than a thousand years more advanced! Kepler in the 17th century only revived Greek astronomical knowledge that was condemned and hidden by Christians (Ptolemy et al) in the second century.

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Psalm 93 where it says 'The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved' doesn't mean that the world is the center of the universe. If you read the rest of Psalm 93, it talks about the lords statues standing strong, etc... This means either: the world cannot be destroyed or Christianity cannot be wiped out.
And Joshua 10:12-13, 2 Kings 20:11, Isaiah 38:8 and Isaiah 30:26, are all miracles. Not one verse in the bible tells us that the Earth is in the center of the universe

And also about the part where you wrote 'Christian Ego and Pride: Science is Humbling':

First of all, Christians beleive that the Earth is 6000 to 7000 years old. 14 Billion years is absolout rubbish. Carbon Dating has been disproved many times.

1. The Hebrew word is more correctly stated (as I did) as 'stablished' which means "stabilized", like you do to a boat at sea. There is no single word that can be used in its place - "established" is only half way there. As the authors of the Psalms would have believed, like they did at the time, that the world floated on a great ocean, it means that God had stopped the Earth from floating when he 'stablished' it during its creation.

2. Carbon dating is only one method of dating things over the very long scale, based on the decay of carbon isotopes. It is not 'disproved'. In addition, though, there are many other ways at dating the Earth, and none of them have to the conclusion that the Earth is only 6000-7000 years old. The Egyptians and Aztecs who had flourishing civilisations and histories older than that, would surely disagree! You are placing the date of creation way inside known history.

Look at the history of religions like Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, at sciences like geology.

Re: Dating Methods

Carbon dating has not been disproved but it is very unreliable as follows:

If there was a sink full of water, and a tap was dripping into it at lets say, 50mL per hour, how long do you think it has been dripping for?
Assumption 1: It has been dripping at a constant rate.
Assumption 2: There is no leakage
Assumption 3: There was no water in there to begin with.

These are all assumptions that apply to dating which can make it very inaccurate

Religion versus Astronomy

Ok, let's calm down. Galilieo and Isaac Newton were both practising and beleiving Christians, namely individuals who beleived that Jesus Christ is The Son of God. As starnge as this is going to sound, it was thier reading of the bible that informed their work and led them to beleiving what they did about the universe. The bible states that the earth is round and nowhere does it say that the sun goes around the earth. This was an idea propagated by ignorant men in the roman catholic church.

State religion, or organised religion has always tried to control peoples thinking for it's own vicious ends. Please people, being men of faith, like both Newton and Galileo, will always lead you to searching for the truth. Doing this will often put you in opposition with Religious people and authorities.

A Good Movie

Please, take some time to watch the movie, "The Privileged Planet."

earth orbits the sun

Obviously, in human weakness, some of the early voices of Christianity had it wrong. The idea that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around, sends the simple message that the universe doesn't revolve around man, but instead man revolves around God, namely the Son, Jesus Christ. The correct voice of the Christian gospel would state that the earth is a type of man, as man was created from the dust of earth (Gen. 2:7) and that the sun is a type of Christ (Malachi 4:2): ...the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings;...This revelation speaks of the idea that Christ is the center of the Christian walk as (John 1:3,4), all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men, and (Colosians 1:17),... He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Simply put self isn't the end-all to life. Christ is.Remember the wisdom of God is foolishness to man (1 Corinthians 1:18-31.In closing, the early Christians who stated Copernicus' theory was false, were merely misguided men. They are not the authors of truth. Their false interpretations don't change the true Christian message (2 Peter 1:20), and these men were not prophets of old. But the Christian message is this, that Christ came to earth as a man to die on the cross for the remission of sins, and if we repent and believe in Him and confess Him turning our life over to Him as our center we will be born again, or regenerated, translated out of darkness into His light. In doing so we will be sons and daughters of light as stated in Ephesians 5:8, for you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, and 1 Thessalonians 5:5, you are all sons of light and of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. In reference to Joshua commanding the sun to stand still and Hezekiah praying and the sun turning back, this was a figure of speech. It's common sense that if the Bible is true than the sun would appear to stand still as God stopped the orbit of the sun, and that He reversed the earth's orbit to cause the sun to appear to move backward. We need to take literal things literally and figurative things figuratively as the Bible states in 2 Tim. 2:15, be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. In other words, don't misinterpret scripture, but instead rightly divide it against other scripture. Thanks for letting me share some of my own thoughts... I thoroughly believe in each ones right to their own opinion and respect each ones right to speak their own mind. This is a God-given freedom. But don't take my word for it, instead if you will, research these scriptures for yourself and experience them for yourself.


I'd like to point out the misinterpretation that atheists, agnostics, and any other non-Christian or scientist take on the bible. For those people who have read the bible and do not believe in the truths within it, they must analyze it like any other historical document. There are so many facts and predictions that it has portrayed! There are also many many metaphors. If one was to read the book of Revelations, he would know this even more than when proven by the other books. The bible does not state that the world is the center of the universe and immobile- it means it as the fact that the world is constant; it is the only planet which God has placed in the universe to contain life, and His glory is shown through the fact that the earth is the center.. of His care, of His majesty, and of what He means to be interpreted as what He has created to be the most high of the entire universe.

You mean Aristotle, not Christianity

Dear Sir: You have confused, or misattributed the philosophy of Aristotle with Christian theology. The claims you make about what Christianity holds, actually those held and taught by Aristotle. Unfortunately the Church DID buy into to these; and it was considered intellectual suicide to go against Aristotle. But it was he who taught that: (1) the Earth is motionless and at the center of the Universe (physically and ideologically), despite rising evidence to the contrary. Scientists found the Universe to be utterly vast, that the Earth orbits the Sun, and quickly theorized that it was not important in the grand scheme of the Universe. (2) That orbits are perfectly circular. It is "this" doctrine that reinforced Ptolemy's complicated retro-grade circles to make the phenomena fit the observational data. This was NOT Christian doctrine. It is Aristotelianism. I honestly don't know where the other points you made originated, but they are not essential teachings in any theological book I've ever read, which is not ALL, but with a masters in theology, I have read 100's. Nowhere does the Bible teach that the earth is flat. It does imply a three-story universe. Hell below the earth, heaven above it. But never does it claim the earth is flat. That was "your" addition; perhaps to buttress your argument. And yes, many Christians believe in a "young earth," but not all do. That is another discussion. So, I argue that you have you have attributed the theories of Aristotle to Christian theology. I hope you might, out of intellectual honesty correct your assertions. Thanks for reading! Cheers!

Re: You mean Aristotle, not Christianity

The list of doctrinal mistakes, based on biblical text, is prepended with the words "The Church argued", in the past tense. So there is nothing to correct.

I'm hoping you read the page, and biblical notes, and not just the summary posted here on LiveJournal.

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