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Vexen Crabtree 2015


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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

Logic and God

"The Universe Could Not Have Been Created by God" by Vexen Crabtree
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Logic is more powerful than God, but sadly Faith has nothing to do with logic. It's almost an antonym, in fact :)

Human beings are far too complicated to behave in a maths-logical way.

Computers are also moving in that direction. Although dead annoying, I see "illogical" behavior resulting from immense complexity to be one of the essential elements of what we call life because we're unable to admit (most of us) that life could be purely maths-logical and mechanical.

www.learntruthwith.us (Anonymous) Expand
(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
God created Logic. (Anonymous) Expand
(Deleted comment)
I don't know if I'd call god Logical or rational.
Human tought may have some kind of continual continuaty but frequently deveates from Logic infavor of instinct or emotion.

one would have to assume that if god exsists he must be more rational than logical since without emotion he would have no drives to do anything especialy embark on such a massive project as either createing or even just shapein or for that matter even bothering at all to influence the univers. That kind of thing takes serious drive and given that he apperently gave us free will I would say a great deal of curiosity too.

Logic vs. God

God is the storngest being of all creation
God is the creator

Can God create something that is more powerful/stronger than him?
If he can, he's not the strongest

Re: Logic vs. God

I want to reply this question using my head only. If we look into our head, we see that:
Our brain – the best computer one can ever see- is protected in our skull.
Our eyes – the best camera that takes the pictures and send them to our tiny memory – are protected in eyes’ holes very well. if compared to nose.

Our eyelashes are the windshield wipers of our eyes and protector of our eyes from the dust.

Our ears are the best receivers which identifies all the sounds all over the world.

Our hair is our beauty dress for our head and covers our head against the cold weather.

Our eyebrows, apart from our beauty lines, are the protector as well that prevent sweat coming into our eyes.

Our nose is a well-designed smell detector which identifies all the flowers and fruits and other things like smoke a sign of fire or gas. Wet nose hair prevents the dirty dust at the gate –nose- of our lungs.

Our tongue is the doorman of taste for our stomach. Bitter food is spited out but sweet ones are invited in. Our tongue helps us speak as well. Lips are the curtains for our teeth to make us look beautiful.

In 6.5 billion world population, people have all the same face although they are different in images.

Moreover through our computer like brain, we can think, evaluate and judge what is right what is wrong or which is logical and which one is absurd1 Then if we use our head and the logic in our brain, we conclude that there must be a creator who creates our head so well and so perfect rather than considering random causes as creator which downrightly conflicts with reason and logic. Thus God does not waste anything creation and does not do anything in vain. He can create a more powerful thing but why does he do that? Do we need that? He does not need to prove anything more to prove that he is the only creator who provides us with everything we need. He already created a wonderful world with all necessary things in it for us; servant -like animals, fruit stall-like trees, factory like soil, our body, a wonderful and best at creation, a seven-layer shield over our world, a best heater-like sun with no gas and coal heating us for million years with no waste materials – please don’t think about that nuclei of hydrogen atoms to fuse into the nuclei of helium atoms via a series of reactions makes the energy. These are the reasons that God created in it to refer to our logic from HIS ultimate wisdom and knowledge. Otherwise God of course is able to create energy for us without a sun. If any ordinary heater we buy for cold days requires a maker, how come, a miracle like-heater sun does not require a maker?

Briefly, what I observe through the e-mails is that audience is lost in their own debates like God or logic etc. We call Wisdom and infinite knowledge in God’s creation, where we cannot reach it with our very human perceptions and logic. And while we have thousands of blessings in our lives, like breathing, digesting, fruits, foods, walking, talking, seeing, hearing, smelling, giving birth and babies creation in mother’s womb etc. We can still ask the questions that are irrelevant to what we are blessed for.

God bless us all with his mighty eye-opener events and guide us to use our logic, the best blessing of all, to reach the border of His wisdom and Infinite knowledge through His miracle-like creations.

Translated from Risale Nur collection.
David Chamber
e-mail: erenlight@hotmail.com

If God is bound by no logic, what can he not do? Nothing? Then he can make himself known to us can't he? And he can also make us not bound by logic, therefore we can know him too? He could also defy logic and create himself/herself, no?

A being cannot create itself. If it has not yet created itself, then it can't defy logic because it can't do /anything/.

Re: there you go (Anonymous) Expand
"If God can contain a property of "logical", then the following must be true: That the Universe, that requires no cause or creator, also can contain logic. This means that if this defense is true the Universe doesn't need God in order for logic to exist anyway"

You cannot apply thought to the universe. The statement "The Universe, that requires no cause or creator, also can contain logic." is false in that the Universe has no thought. When these actions are "done" by the Universe, it does not think if them as logical, but as what it does. We do not say, "That tree is logical, it is siting in the best spot on this piece of land." We do say however, "The *placement* of the tree is logical, it is in the best spot on this piece of land."

The nature of logic

Your fundamental mistake is treating logic like an entity. Logic is not an entity. It is a description. It does not exist by itself. When an argument is presented the descriptions of that argument are created with it, logic included.

Re: The nature of logic

I think I mean "the laws of cause-and-affect" when I say "logic", I mean the very basic rules of the universe that make anything "logical" work, rather than have random results follow random events, and therefore invalidating all thought (as only random thoughts would be possible without "logic").

Re: The nature of logic (Anonymous) Expand
Re: The nature of logic (Anonymous) Expand

God and Logic

"is it not true therefore, that atheists are at least somewhat more rational and logical in their beliefs? "

No. Agnostics are more rational, because you can't prove the excistence of god more true than false. When thinking about Descarte or Hume and what we can't really proove as true premises of the world, we are cut quite short. The only thing we can actually prove to excist is our selves.

Believing in god is question of faith, in my oppinion. And faith is the way we accept arguments without logical reasoning, just because of the "feeling" or whatever you want to call it. So, yes I think in that way god excists out of human logic. I think the proof of god is a paradox for the human mind, and can never be prooven.

Think about the beginning of the world? What created the big bang? If I say god, you can always say who created god etc.etc it's a paradox.

There are limits to human knowledge. We are just so overwhelmed in scientific details and complexitys of logical structures, that we don't often find it necessary or even have the capacity to see what it all cannot explain. There is still a lot of that left in the world, and a lot of subjects that scientific reaserch cannot touch (things that are out of our senses)

One might go on and argue that logic is a structure created by the way of the human mind to percive things, and tells us of nothing more than the way we think and store knowledge. It doesn't really reach anything from the "outside" world.

Re: God and Logic

I believe that atheists make fewer assumptions than theists (i.e., giving the "uncaused cause" such qualities as consciousness, will, aim, thought, etc, make for a greater set of assumptions than the atheist makes about a scientific first cause), but I agree that agnostics can put a case for the possible existence of an actual creator, but, that Occams Razor and "likelihood" make it more sensible to assume an atheist universe.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/assumptions.html (Assumptions theists make)
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/faith.html (Uncaused Cause of Atheists & Theists)

logic is man made and has human limits

God is way beyond human perception. You can't possibly explain infinity and fully comprehed it right? but it still exists. our restricted minds can't percieve everything. you are right! you can't put God into HUMAN logic. deep down I know you know why too. God is not to be put in our little human imperfect box of understanding. Besides its not about us Its about God! I hope you find out before you Die. because Then it'll be to late.

Re: logic is man made and has human limits

I don't think God would judge me on account of my knowledge & understanding. Because people can't put forward a logical argument for god means that I don't believe in God... if God exists, it can't really morally blame me for not believing. If God judges people by their knowledge (which is incidental & nothing to do with how good a person you are), then God is immoral and a monster, and in that case I don't want to spend eternity in Heaven with such a creature.

The idea of God and Logic or God and Thought is another example of trying to project human traits onto a "Wholly Other" being. To do so is natural, given as humans, it's the method we have. But's it's also an error.

Take for example the statement "If God thinks and plans." What makes anyone think that God THINKS? God is the fountain of all knowledge, wisdom and logic. What would He (She)(It) have to think about? When you know all, thinking is not necessary. If I were to say to you "The sky is blue" over and over, long before the 100th time, you'd say, "What's wrong with you, I know the sky is blue. You don't have to tell me over and over" The problem is our rational. Thought breaks things down into parts and
tries understand through reduction. With God, this completely the wrong method. God cannot be broken down into parts. He is one incomprehensible, infinite but indivisible, pure essence and Being. You also can't separate Her from Her characteristics. God does not think, God Is thought. God does not Love. God IS Love. When mystics write of their first encounter with God, they do not write of their feeling Her "power", or His "love" or any one individual aspect. With God, you get it all. God doesn't do things in half measure. You get Him all. Bam!!!!! with a capital B. It's a Gestalt at it's infinite. You feel Her love, wisdom, power, holiness, and an unfathomable, infinite number of other things. That's why every mystic at all times forwarns us that language is completely and utterly inadequate in relating the experience of God.

Logic is very weak

God existed in a non physical plane before anything existed. There wre no random events since events could not happen because God is timeless. There was only a creator, and He was about to create. Logic would be needed, and by these laws the universe would abide. There was nothing but everything, and then everything was created by the Forever that is God. Try to make God abide by YOUR laws that God created for you and you will no doubt belittle God. What is Intellect? What Is logic? Is it there? Tangible? Evidence of logic? What created logic if not God? And what created you FROM logic if there was no God? Does what you call logic REALLY make sense? Could God easily have made a different kind of logic, one that would seem ordinary to someone whos lived by it, but bizarre by our standards?

Does logic REALLY matter in the argument of God? What if God is logic? What if God IS logic in itself, but with a consciousness? And with will, power?

Arguments for and against God will always fly one way and another, each argument more powerful than the last. And you know what? It won't mean a Goddamn THING. Laws and Physics... Logic and Morals. It means nothing. It could have easily wound up as being something absolutely different If God wanted. It just seems absolutely hopeless when someone starts saying that God doesnt exist. What can you do about it? They'll talk about logic and science. Why? What's the laws of the physical got to do with the laws of metaphysics? Can you prove or disprove the existence of God? Can you rid 100% of all possibility in the existence of God? Is it even worth TRYING?! What's the point? I mean really? Can you match up to the power of eternal possibilities? Can you even COMPREHEND eternal possibilities? God is forever. Whether you believe in him or not, there just HAS to be a God.

There can't just have been a BOOM and then several millions and billions of years later life began? When did the mind begin? Consciesness? When did life itself begin? When did the first cell take off and start respirating? WHY?!

Infact... why did the big bang come along? HOW did it come along? Was the creation of the universe the result of a random, ILLOGICAL explosion? Or was it something more? Something away from mundane laws and physics? Something fused with infinity? Something we can never question beyond our wildest dreams... the cosmos is large... yeah... what's outside of the universe? What is past the final star? We have only seen probably less than 1% of the universe. What else is there? Where else is there? Whats it all about? If my arm was long, strong and rigid enough, could I touch the end of the universe? Could I feel it? (Assuming the nerveous message was sent fast enough) Could I break past the edge of the universe? Is it lgoical for an outside to exist? Is there just emptyness past the final star? Is there just NOTHING?! Emptiness would be something, and darkness and black would be something... or would it? Is it just utterly cold, dark? Infinitely energyless? Or infinity charged with energy? Is there total light? Is there utter heat? Can you answer even that? Then how can you answer a question like "Does God exist?" aswell when God also lies just outside our borders?

I probably sound like a crackpot, but you just CAN'T disprove God totally... you just can't. Theres always the possibility that there is a God.

You can't argue about it. You might want to, but I can guarantee you right here and now you CANNOT rid all chances of the existence of God through petty science.

I put it to you.. without a metaphysical, there is only physical... therefore, it is possible that one day we may be able to replace our dying cells with medicine (dont ask me how it might be done) and therefore live forever by replacing our consciessness into another body. It's possible right? If all that there is to us is just chemicals and flesh, then we can be fixed right? Like toys. Are we just toys?

Is it possible that we are just flesh and chemicals?

Re: Logic is very weak

I don't have time to reply properly, but you started out by saying:

"God existed in a non physical plane before anything existed. There wre no random events since events could not happen because God is timeless. There was only a creator, and He was about to create."

This doesn't add up - if God was timeless (i.e., static), and no events could happen, how was God "about" to create? In timelessness, how can something be "about" to happen? It's either happened or it hasn't.

This brings us to a pantheistic problem:

If God is perfect, then God knows instantly and immediately every aspect of what it is to create. As soon as God exists, it creates existence as we know it. God cannot pause - there can be no reason. Especially if it is beyond time, and all-knowing! Therefore, according to the few bits of information you've given me about your God:

As soon as God exists, the Created Universe exists. This means that the Universe has been eternal; God is beyond time, the Universe must have been created, by God, with a beginning that is now an eternity ago.

This leaves some traditional forms of theism in a bit of a contradiction!

Vexen, I very much enjoyed your piece on God being restrained by Logic. I agree.

I am writing a similar paper now where I say God is restraiend by the moral order. Your thoughts on it would be really helpful.

"God Has No Free Will" by Vexen, 2001 Dec 31

An excerpt from: "God Has No Free Will" by Vexen, 2001 Dec 31

"God, as the ultimate creator, created goodness. God is also said to be a perfectly good benevolent God. This means that God fulfils every possibility of the goodness it has created. It is the be-all and end-all of goodness, perfectly good and inerringly good. If God was not 100 percent perfectly moral, God would not be perfect. This results in a complete lack of free will for God.

God knows the nuances and complexities of every situation. God knows which actions are optimal, it knows which actions are perfectly good. Only God, I would guess, is capable of performing actions that are perfectly good. And it does so inerringly, constantly, because it itself is perfectly good and never errs. It is all-knowing and perfectly good. But, the problem is for free will, in any situation, of all the possible things God could do, God does the perfectly morally right one. It never chooses an inferior course of action because it is perfect. If it acted imperfectly, it would not be perfect.

So, in any situation, a perfectly moral God has no choice: It must carry out what action is most good. God, in creating goodness, and being perfectly good, is completely limited to only a set, predetermined series of actions. In any situation, at any point in time or out of time, God has no free will: It must robotically and automatically carry out the precise action that is perfectly good.

But herein lies contradiction: How can a God that has no choice be described as "moral"? A computer, for example, is amoral because it cannot make moral choices; it's programming defines it's actions accurately. Likewise, God accurately has to follow the optimally most perfect and moral path. God's morality is the same as a computers: It makes no truly moral choices. This contradiction shows up a fundamental flaw in the English used to describe God... it cannot be perfectly moral and moral. In short, God must be amoral (with no free will) or imperfect."


god=logic think about it

Re: god=logic

Human being's logic can reach the border of Wisdom Of God. The Guys' logic like Stephen Hawkings or Einstein. By the way Einstein proves and clamis that God created the universe? So are we Einsteins or what?

A Problem

You are assuming alot of things here. How do you know that God is not the same as logic? Also, logic is not a being. It is simply a word that we give to what we know as an explanation that can suit our minds. Another thing: logic doesn't necessarilt dictate God, but rather the other way around. And us, as humans, don't see everything God does as logical. Alot of it is beyond us. Logic can more so be a part of God. God gave us logic when He gave us our knowledge. Remember that God has always been, and logic must have been with Him. You do not know that the Universe doesn't need a creator, in fact it is illogical to think that it doesn't need a creator. According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the total amount of usable energy in the Universe is constantly decreasing. This means the Universe had a starting amount of energy. Thus there was a time of creation. To think that the Universe came from nothingness is illogical. It must have had a supernatural force create it.
Allow me to state now that most atheists I have met are more illogical than most theists I know.
You have there a bunch of mingled and twisted arguements. Once again, you assume too much, God uses logic, but logic does not use God.

My logic

Some day in future, the software that I have created will be evolved in such the way that have I expected: it could reason by itself. It will be able to trace back its orgin up to the bit 1 and 0 which are the smallest elements in its universe that it can perceive. It may be intelligent enough to understand that by logic that I have programmed it then it will think that I am the logic as his creator. Of course, I am logic but how can I make it understand that I am just a programmer as human understand? I am working hard on this. To fill the gap of understanding, I introduces "Faith" to it rather than logic only. Hope it work.

The Satanic Fallacy

God is Absolute Truth. The Universe is manifested Relative Truth. The Absolute Truth is ineffable reality and supramundane. The Relative Truth is conceptual and mundane. Thus there are two Planes of Reality: Absolute Reality and Relative Reality. Thus, two logical perspectives. Absolute Reality is Uncreated Reality, immortal. Relative Reality is Created Reality, mortal. Absolute Reality is void, empty of all things. Created Reality is replete with all things. Logic is a thing. All things have names and forms. There are no names and forms on the Absolute Plane of Reality. Absolute God has no name. Absolute God makes himself known to mortal, created beings by names. If God created the Universe, then God created Logic. Time and Space are names associated with temporal and spatial forms. Thus, they are things. Absolute Reality is beyond all things, beyond conceptualisation, beyond Relative Reality, beyond logic. Absolute Reality is beyond life and death. Relative Reality is bound by life and death. Absolute Reality has no beginning, middle, nor end. Created, Relative Reality includes non-linear, symmetrical beginningless and endless time, aka Eternity. Eternity is Time created in the image of Absolute Reality. It consists of Three Infinites: the Infinite Past, the Infinite Present (Always Now), and the Infinite Future. The Created, Relative Universe is finite, with a beginning, a middle and end, cyclical because reborn endlessly. It is logical to understand that the Absolute Creator of the Created Relative Universe is totally objective to that Creation. It is logical to understand that the totally objective Creator cannot be logically isolated and analysed beyond "Factor X". The Universe consists of Composite Things and is thus analysable. God is the Totality, unanalysable Absolute Reality, the Three Times and the Ten Directions of Space. It is logical to understand that the Created Universe is a logical subset of Absolute Reality: Creator God. It is illogical to think that the Absolute Reality can be totally understood from the perspective of Relative Reality. That mistake is the Satanic Fallacy.