Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

Do we have to experience evil?

"The Experience of Evil Theodicy"

If you had any sense at all, you'd know that your arggument was entirely one-sided. In order to prove Christians wrong, you have to PROVE them wrong i.e. use their Bible. Point out somewhere in the Bible where God was immoral or Evil.

Proven? Read the Bible

God did many things that we are taught not to do. There are celebrated examples of divine genocide all the way through the Old Testament: the great flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing all the Egyptian First-born to let the Israelites escape Egypt, the fall of Jericho... to name but a few. You just have to pay attention in sunday school :)
I'll say God did set a good example for Hitler, although Hitler can't quite match the scale of deaths...


God was Evil (Anonymous) Expand
Re: God was Evil (Anonymous) Expand
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Tim's thoughts...

That would be the Calvinistic ideal of thought about Christianity. I personally believe God is playing a game of sorts, with himself. He either 1: is insecure about himself and needs people to choose to love him, 2: decided to make people suffer, giving them choices but inevitably knowing their doom, or 3: is evil himself, and decides to mislead people into a deceiving trap and we all are going to burn anyway. I just think he's in for the fun of it. We don't have free will, He knows before he creates us as a fetus that we are going to choose to burn in Hell. He knows the past, present, and future, right? Therefore, he knows who will serve him. The angels are dumb. They haven't figured this out yet? Oh well, it's none of my business. I'm going to die, just the same as everyone else.

There is a loving God that will forgive you!

The best part about God is you can write all these thoughts about him and he still loves you. He can forgive you for these false teachings. I pray you change your thoughts and look at God as a personal friend.

Re: There is a loving God that will forgive you!

Sometimes, God should forgive himself...
So the Lord sent pestilence upon Israel and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. And God sent an angel unto Jeruselem to destroy it and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld and he repented him of the evil and said to the angel that destroyed, "It is enough, stay now thine hand". (ibid)

This is worth reading


A third way

If God is everything, then God is both moral and immoral (and the world reflects that){I believe Jesus is alleged to have told his associates that there is no sin, except what they call sin.) Under these circumstances, God then is neither moral nor immoral and is therefore amoral. Morality, like evil, is a human-in-the-space-time, egocentric world construct. The third way is spiritual (aka moral) anarchy wherein each and every person "kills" their ego and surrenders to God as Creator in the ongoing, "everlasting" emergence and unfoldment. If God and Creation are yin-yang, plus/minus, then we have a problem: there will always be pain, suffering, and other dark stuff happening and no chance of the Universe and God transcending space-time unless there is some kind of "perfect" balance / harmony -- ie all humans are good, loving and joyful and every volcano on the planet is popping off, etc -- or some other ultimate "good" that resides out there in the land of uncertainty.


We have to be begin to understand we are locked behind our senses. That is our senses or collectively our consciousness is limited, but not confined.
How do we know? How do we know we know…the answer is we don’t but relative to what we did know and some objective evidence we judge something right or wrong (This I call marginal sense use). Take the study of most scientific endeavours and you shall find no end stage, no beginning with an end point, just more theory. The answer at this end is that we just don’t know.
Imagination and science are attempts to go beyond the senses in order to provide possible clues/answers to hard or paradoxical questions. It has to be understood that paradox signals the limit of human consciousness at this point in time. To go beyond paradox requires an understanding of consciousness and a willingness to increase the developmental evolution of consciousness. Questions such as god, infinity, good and evil could be to us what a human being is to a bacterium. The consciousness distance between being able to know that you have a question and what that question is may have a dimensional context that our consciousness has not reached.
The feeble attempts to answer questions such as ‘Why are free market mechanisms not perfect’ betray themselves as questions beyond our evolutional dimensional consciousness. This is also the problem for A.I. ‘Why won’t the thing think for us if we give it enough information?’ We can go on collecting knowledge but if we are not conscious of why we collect knowledge or by attempting to answer these questions with reference to the big questions – paradoxes, we are effectively citing knowledge as the precursor to greater consciousness; It is this that I disagree with for if I don’t see what I know then I am blind! If greater consciousness begets greater knowledge then perhaps then the big questions will yield; but the paradox of consciousness and knowledge is the paradox of the chicken and the egg.
An example might elucidate this idea. A foetus must have written within it’s DNA an algorithm either for consciousness leading to learning or learning leading to consciousness. What comes first? Perhaps knowledge has blinded us to the pursuit of consciousness and that more attention to consciousness is in order, yes, yes I know this is also the pursuit of knowledge.

happiness v sorrow

I think of it this way: Christians tell us that there is no suffering or sorrow in Heaven, yet joy cannot exist on it's own - how would we recognise it without a contrast? Therefore either there is both suffering and joy, no emotion at all, or no Heaven.
Personally Earth is my only idea of Heaven - my search for knowledge more important than knowledge itself, and the challenges more exciting than the rewards. If God cannot cater for every individuals' personal tastes then he is not a perfect God, or he takes free will from us.
Which is it to be, Christians?

Love in Satan

Ow this site hurts my eyes... I would love to read the rest of it pain-free, you couldnt make it black on white instead?? :P


the free will theodicy is not something that can be used as a conclusion to saying there is no god you cannot prove this with petty words about heaven about heaven and suffering, the real truth is far beyond anyones grasp

The real truth is certainly beyond your grasp, but perhaps you should work out more of the issues raied in the essay if you don't understand how the conclusion is verified. If you think it isn't justified, provide some comments saying why. Assertions are useless, engage with some philosophy/theology or the truth certainly will never darken your door.

Before Adam choose to sin, he did not know evil. The garden of Eden, like heaven was not an evil place. In order for free will to exist, only the posiblity of evil needs to exist.

a sin in its essence as we understand the word is evil.
if adam chose to sin, he knew evil. He was told specifically not to eat from that particular tree so he sinned, however, If, as I understand it he was told not to eat from the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil"
he could not possibly understand what evil meant because he had not yet eaten of it.
Then I must ask what kind of idiot creator would put a tree containing the knowledge of good and evil on the earth let alone right in front of them, if he didn't want them to know about good and evil.
I will not put a handful of broken glass, a bottle of poisonous chemicals or a loaded handgun in front of my child, tel them not to touch it and walk away. Do you know why? because they will touch it. I know it and I am only a human. If god didn't know they would eat it them he/she/it/they is either completly stupid or evil in every sense of the word because though you and I never ate thae fruit we are punished for it.

Free Will

Free Will Defence of Evil
The existence of Evil, despite their being an all-powerful, benevolent creator, is normally explained away by saying that free will is more important than happiness, that it has a higher moral worth. Allowing us to choose between good and evil, and creating us so that we are capable and inclined to do so, is more important than there being no suffering.

God is not all powerful. How can God be all powerful if man has Free Will? Since man has Free Will, he makes his own choices. God does not directly control us, therefore man controls part of his destiny. This is partially what is meant by God 'creating Man in his own image.' Man has creative powers -- power to choose, like God does.

As for Good and Evil -- God is Goodness, his creation is good and man is his great work. All creation is good. Evil arises when Man is self-decieved into thinking that he can benefit from ignoring the happness of others, and rewarding himself without regard to others. This is egotisim, vanity, narcisisim, or psychosis or worse.

There is no suffering in heaven, and no Evil. This is our assumption. Also, as Free Will is more valuable than lack of suffering, if heaven is a more valuable place then the beings who exist in heaven must also have Free Will.

An Argument Against God
Heaven is a place where there is free will, but no evil. This means that the evil and suffering which exist are not necessary for free will. This means that the free will theodicy is not valid.

Heaven is a condition of the mind (soul) you are free to go there, or to leave. You are free to come or go. To be in heaven is to love others, it is to live in a conscious awareness of others in that love. This is joy of life. Certainly there is free will in Heaven. All creative acts are a celebration of this great love of creation and others who are ourt fellows.

And you are right that Free Will is not justified by there being good and evil - evil is a miss step and problem created as a by-product of Free Will combined with lack of Heavenly awareness, lack of 'joy of life' awareness.

Explains more clearly why "free will" and "omnipotent god" cannot both exist.

There is a Heaven

Okay, I'm sorry to say but you guys are WAY OFF.. if you would like to prove us christians wrong I would first recomend you to actually pick up a bible,(you obviously haven't because you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about) god didn't create evil, god just gave man the idea to choose and he wants people who believe in him to be in his kingdom, not people like you who question his existance. And also, the devil was created to tempt you so god could tell who was worthy enough to come into heaven. The devil creates evil not god. But there is still hope for you because god is a loving god who will forgive you, no matter what you do, hopefully you'll get on the right path soon, because you are way off right now. god loves you even if you don't love him back... try to look at the other point of view so you really know what your saying, because im not sure you know what your talking about:-/.... hopefully you get help somewhere, try going to church;-)

Re: There is a Heaven

Actually I have read the Bible and the Koran and found them both interesting in some places and boring in others. I've also read Catch22 and found it to be better in many respects, but mostly because I laughed more. There arn't many jokes in the other books.
Seriously though, I used to believe in God and decided to read the Bible VERY carefully. Big mistake! It stopped me believing. I can't explain why in such a small space, but you try it and I bet you will find the same. Make notes while you read it and as you go you will start to find ideas and stories that make you check back though your notes. Gradually a pattern will imerge... go on... trust me!

I recently thought of the Author's argument and assumed my idea was new. Blast ! Someone else has thought of it ! I even thought I should write a book with this argument as one of the key ideas, but I am now discouraged. Unlike most people, I HAVE read the Bible, all of it, more than once, very carefully and it convinced me that it's mostly stories or rough history and primitive explanations with a bit of poetry thown in for good measure. For those who can't be bothered to read it all, I recommend the sermon on the mount, especially the bit about praying in private and not as the heathen do, in public and not praying the same thing over and over again, as if God will hear you better for all that. Then go into a Church where you hear the things Jesus said are wrong !

What next ?

OK, I am willing to accept that God DOES exist. That will save a lot of time.
Also, I promise not to sin. Anything else?

No problem

I am told that God loves me.
I am also told I will burn in hell for eternity.

As someone once wrote,
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible,
It ain't necessarily so.


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