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Vexen Crabtree 2015


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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015


"Universalism: If there is a Good God, Everyone Must Go to Heaven" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

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I can't believe your brain fits in your head!!! I think I'm in love!!! lol

Hi, I'm curious and I thought I'd ask... did I see you two weeks ago (on saturday) outside London Arena before a Korn show? Either it was you or someone who looked remarkably like you.

Oh and your essay was really interesting to read.

No, last weekend I stayed at my girlfriends house and didn't go anywhere! And I've never been to a Korn concert, although I'd like to one day.

I think it was saturday sept 7th.

... Well I really enjoyed the concert and I was especially happy when they played "One" by Metallica. Well, only a part of it. And I was front row too. And I got caked in food and coke and water because there was a huge food fight! And they had lots and lots of glitter falling down from the ceiling at the end.

And I'm sure that's more than you care to know about. I'm still getting over how good it was even though it was 2 weeks ago!


Vexen, you are a liar, an agent of Satan, and an enemy of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Universalism is GARBAGE.

You need to repent of your unbelief and trust in the LORD JESUS CHRIST for real.

The fact that you love that garbage called the NIV, what I call the Nutty Idiots Version, instead of God's perfect preserved words, the KING JAMES BIBLE, and you adore that evil heretic Origen, proves this out.

The Bible does not teach universalism. It teaches that God is love and God so loved the world (past tense!) that He sent Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God/God the Son, to die for our sins. But God loves division between the Saved and the Lost. The Bible is full of such DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THE SAVED AND THE LOST.

Again: God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked but He does take pleasure in DIVISION AGAINST THE LOST SATANIC WORLD SYSTEM.


Revelation 20:15: Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 14:11: the smoke of their torment goes up day and night forever and ever.
Mark 9:45-48: The Lord Jesus Christ described Hell as a place of unquenchable fire where their "worm dyeth not".
Jesus said fear not them who can kill the body but He, God, who can destroy the body and soul in Hell. That is eternal and forever.
2 Thessalonians 1:8: in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 16:31: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
John 3:18: He that believeth on Him is not condemned; he that believeth not is condemned already.
Outside of the Lord Jesus Christ all people are born condemned, lost, and once they die without Christ, that is it. No reincarnation no second chances. Universalism is a lie and Satanic garbage.
Hebrews 9:27: It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement.
People who die without Jesus Christ can never be saved because they are in a state of SIGHT and no longer FAITH. ONLY in this ONE LIFE can someone have FAITH in CHRIST and be saved.

Babies and Mental babies (retarded/developmentally disabled) go to Heaven when they die as do aborted babies and such, because they are unaccountable. Everyone else is accountable even if they are a jungle native deep in the forest.

Noone in Heaven will be sad or hurt about lost family members and friends and other humans burning in Hell forever. And no, God will not make us forget them like some mistaken Christians try to say. We will remember all of it and we will REJOICE WITH GOD OVER HIS ETERNAL JUSTICE UPON THE LOST. When a lost person dies they are forever confirmed in their lostness and their choice was this: They chose the same punishment of Satan. Hell was created to punish Satan and his fallen angels and when a lost person dies they are forever under the same punishment.

Jesus Himself said if one does not put Him above even their family members they are not consistently following Him. I had family members who died lost and they are now BURNING IN HELL forever and I am alright with it. I love Jesus that much. It is sad that they were foolish enough to reject Him but that was their choice and they made it.

If God were to empty Hell and let all the lost into heaven heaven would become Hell.

If there is no room in one's heart for Jesus there is no room for them in Heaven.

Revelation shows saved people in Heaven REJOICING when God sends His judgements and plagues down upon the lost people of Earth during that Tribulation period. We will be totally experientially (saved) conformed to Christ and we will be glad for all of His judgements on the lost and on Satan and his devils.

A very good synopsis of and arguments for universalism! Thanks.

Thanks :-)

I have 25K of text notes on the original essay that is behind this one and the parables ones, which is a compelte scriptural and philosophical presentation of pro-universalism. As I got stuck and bogged down in endless (and disorganized...) notes, I produced 2 complete essays from existing notes (which are the 2 you just commented on) and have left the final part (a pure scripture based one) until later. I haven't been "doing" Christianity for a few monthes, but I'll return to this epic task at some point and will probably need your help or comments because it's a bit out-of-my-rights and depth to write such text!

Part of my notes consists of some quotes from yourself, at the moment there are some really quite big Empiress-quotes that it almost looks like a tribute essay! There is a big chance I'm going to release a "Sociological factors of Universalism" essay which contains these (hopefully further clarifying/simplifying the remaining Scripture-Alone argument for universalism).

Apologies (as usual) for the lengthy reply, I just had a coffee :-)

Why your arguments for universalism are invalid...

There was no use of Scripture.

Re: Why your arguments for universalism are invalid...

The arguments are valid.

You didn't say WHICH scripture you think would be valid. The Koran? I-Ching? Hebrew scriptures? As you sound like a moron, I'll guess you meant Christian scipture as not many other people are so arrogant.

Relying on Scripture is limited, confused, wrong, short-sighted, illogical, irrational, stupid, closed minded and wont get you anywhere.

HOWEVER, here is some scripture for you


Re: Why your arguments for universalism are invalid...

have you ever READ the quran? because i assure you that it has been proven over and over again to be the word of truth. scientific evidence for once.
go on to this webpage and you will have all the evidence needed

Re: Why your arguments for universalism are invalid...

The Qur'an in scientifically illiterate. This page you're commenting on now includes the way that Qur'an contradicts itself in its verses on whether people remain in hell forever, or not.

Great Universalist Arguments

Although I came to Universalism through different reasoning (based on that fact that since no one has is really able to "choose" to accept Christ, and he is in fact a loving God, then he must save all people), I like your arguments as well, and they certainly will be more effective againts those numerous free-choicers. I do have one question to follow up all of this praise. I haven't read enough of your articles to know what faith if any to subscribe to (although my guess is agnostic), but I was wondering, upon the assumption that there is a God, what his intent would have been in putting us on earth (also assuming a determined world).

A Huge "Thank you!"

I have had similar ideas but could not put them into words. You, though, have wonderfully combined the right words with logic in a way that has helped many people. I don't want to believe that only people who know Jesus will be saved. I have struggled much in the last few weeks, but your website has brought much needed peace. Thank you!


Re: A Huge "Thank you!"

Hi! I agree with you on alot of things.God has just shown me that we are all completely innocent.Found the loop hole.All of our spirits (hearts) are broken.The symptoms of that are the same as for post-traumatic stress disorder.Equals=helpless,hopeless,depressed,angry,hateful,resentful,revengeful,low self-esteem,self destructive additions(see how everybody fits under this?)Jesus said in Mat.22:37-40 that the 10 commandments=Love God,your neighbor and yourself.You need a good working heart to love,and all of ours are somewhat damaged.Some are completely dead.Took another to break our heart=we are innocent of all charges.Last June I reread Adam and Eve.After the apple bit they also had some of these symptoms=hiding,afraid,self-conscious(put on fig leaves),and they started blaming everyone else.This is the curse of mankind.We "catch" it from each other.Some "cruel" person comes along and breaks our heart,then we are now a carrier,and break other people's hearts.For 19 years I've been waiting for the end of this world.I believe this is it.The system.Our beliefs are the only thing keeping us back from World Peace=Heaven on Earth! The cure is to see all this. Your conscience clears,spirit starts mending,and you start getting back the "fruits of the spirit"=Love,joy,peace,temperance,etc.Gal.5:22 You have to get yourself better first,then you'll see the innocence of others. After a few months I noticed how I was sure defending others.I wondered what was going on with that? Answer?My heart was starting to work again. I think Jesus said in Luke that you cannot see the kingdom of God unless you are born again. Before the apple God told Adam and Eve that the day they ate from that tree, they would surely die.They spiritually died that day.Looks like this all is a resurrection.Spiritual one. Anyway God did help me with all of this.Five years ago my husband died.Then I set out to help a heroin addict.God then told me "you are not the bad person this world has made you out to be".I then became extremely paranoid thinking that there was a conspiracy against me.The police sent me to a nuthouse to get evaluated.I got out ,but I'd left reality. I thought I was in Hell to fight the Devil,and most everyone was on his side.For three years I was stuck in spiritul wacko world.When I saw this truth,that my spirit broke when I was 7,I finally got released from that place.Adam and Eve covers everybody.I wish you all the best!Love Gayle (imagine not being mad at anybody anymore.I'm almost there)


While God's Word, the Bible, tells us that He is patient, there is absolutely no evidence for Him possessing infinite patience. Quite the contrary. Read the accounts of the Flood, the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah and the prophecies of judgement in Revelation. According to God's Word, there IS a limit to His patience. Which God do you believe in, Vexen? A god of your own creation (an idol) or the one true living God revealed through the pages of Scripture? Jesus said that God seeks people to worship Him in spirit and in TRUTH. God IS love... look at the cross. God is also holy... look at the cross. Sin must always be punished for God's justice to be satisfied. Christ's sacrifice on the cross has paid for the sins of those who will turn from sin and wholeheartedly believe in Him, thereby making a way for sinful man to be reconciled with a holy creator. Whoever rejects Christ must pay for his sins himself. God takes sin and the rejection of His Son very seriously. May God graciously gude you into All truth. Carl.Essex, England.


While God's Word, the Bible, tells us that He is patient, there is absolutely no evidence for Him possessing infinite patience. Quite the contrary. Read the accounts of the Flood, the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah and the prophecies of judgement in Revelation. According to God's Word, there IS a limit to His patience. Which God do you believe in, Vexen? A god of your own creation (an idol) or the one true living God revealed through the pages of Scripture? Jesus said that God seeks people to worship Him in spirit and in TRUTH. God IS love... look at the cross. God is also holy... look at the cross. Sin must always be punished for God's justice to be satisfied. Christ's sacrifice on the cross has paid for the sins of those who will turn from sin and wholeheartedly believe in Him, thereby making a way for sinful man to be reconciled with a holy creator. Whoever rejects Christ must pay for his sins himself. God takes sin and the rejection of His Son very seriously. May God graciously guide you into All truth. Carl. Essex, England.

For the faithless Universalists

"It's not WHAT you believe, it's HOW you believe it"-Universist Movement; http://www.universist.org/ http://www.faithless.org/

In Reason:
Bill Baker


I thought your logic was very good, and if your assumptions were correct in the begaining of your logical steps, then I might believe what you said. I think the problem is this, you assume you know what is "moral" and "not moral". Was it not God who created everything? Everything incudes the ideas of "moral" and "immoral". So it is God, not you, that defines "morral" and "immoral", so therefore decides whether what he is doing is moral. And, God{being a perfect being} in your words "always makes the right decision", then his decision that casting unbelievers away is moral.

do murderers, rapists, hitler, molestors, genociders go aswell?

so, you are claiming that everyone goes to heaven...hmmm...ask the children who saw their father beaten brutally, their mother raped and misfiguired and their house burnt down in germany, palestine, chchniya and any other country that is or was ruled by a dictator or zionosts?

i am a muslim and islam is a rligion of peace. this is the proof; any person who commits a serious crime and sincerley repents and never does it again shall be forgiven by Allahs mercy and will go to heaven. but any other person who does NOT fell guilty and does NOT repent will go to hell, and that is logic and fairness is it not? think about it. if somebody murdered your mum or raped your girlfriend and does not feel guilty or repent would you like to see them in eternal bliss? no i'm sure you would not but in fact the opposite, you would like to see them in eternal torture for the digusting crime that they have commited.
i have this theory in why you suggest that everyone goes to heaven. i think that you are so afraid of commitment to anything that you believe that no matter what you do you will go to heaven. so, as to get out of any commitment and anything that goes with it you have convinced yourself that you will still go to heaven no matter waht yoi do. so in actual truth; you are lazy. simple and pure lazy i'm sorry to say and i really think you should change.
and i also think that you should take waht you said about God being evil back because Allah is perfect and no one is as perfect as him. you can not begin to comprehend the majesty and beauty of God. our puny human minds can not imagine his immortality and his greatness which is why we tend to rebel and deny his existence.
i beg of you to rethink your ideas and consider the truth. because although it seems easier to deny Allah's existence believe me its not.
have you ever asked yourself why we exist? and what comes after death..is it just nothing?

God's Empathy!

Vexen, you are, in my opinion, on exactly the right line of thought. One of the things that brought me to sharing your belief is that God (assuming there is a god- I am pretty sure there is) must be perfect in every way. This is because 'the maker' is always more complex than the 'object' made. E.g. No matter how advanced human technology becomes, we will NEVER make anything that is more advanced than ourselves (the human body is mind bogglingly complex, more so than most would think). So God must be perfect as the universe he created is (physically) perfect (with its laws and constants co-operating perfectly).-God must be more complex/perfect than the universe.

As God is perfect, HE MUST HAVE PERFECT EMPATHY. He must be able to perfectly empathise with anyone and everyone. He understands why criminals do what they do. He understands how their upbringing led to their brains seeing crime as acceptable. When Hitler ordered the slaughter of countless Jewish people, he saw it as an acceptable action, at least to his standards. But Hitler could not go to Heaven with these standards. That's why the idea of 'temporary Hell' makes perfect sense. In Temporary Hell, Hitler may recieve a mixture of teaching and punishment (in what form I wouldn't know). The latter of which would most definately be neccessary as Hitlers views would probably have been deeply engrained in him.

Anyway, point made:- assuming God is perfect, he has perfect EMPATHY, and so will forgive the sins of all people (no matter how bad), and will have them (the people) 'treated' so that they see how wrong they were.

P.s.-sorry for the LOOOOONNNNGGG message.

Advise needed Vexon (off topic)!

Hi there, I'm the same guy from the message above. I wanted to ask Vexon a question, a question on moral ethics in fact. What are your views on sex before marriage? I'm 17yrs old, and to me it seems ethical in most ways. One of the only problems I think there is with it is that if you leave your partner after having had a sexual relationship with them, you may have made an emotional bond with them and so would be hurting them by leaving them.

Yet is sex before marriage (on more than one occassion/ with a number of different people) okay if you and the partner understands the likelihood that there will be a break-up, and that you know you will both be fine emotionally when that time comes.

My main problem is that as a teenage male, I have URGES. I make SURE that these urges don't result in any thoughts of ADULTERY (that goes for peoples girlfriends aswell), but I feel that if I abstained from sex then I would have great hardships, which would reduced the quality of my life. I feel that if you can forfill you 'needs' without being immoral then that okay. I am right in thinking this? PWB THANKS!

P.s. your probably a busy guy, so if you haven't time to reply don'y worry about!

Re: Advise needed Vexon (off topic)!

1. Sex requires recognition of the emotional and societal implications and responsibilities. Sex, responsibly done, is one of the greatest beauties.

2. Marriage is a social legal construct; an ideology.

3. It is odd that people think the first has anything to do with the second. Marriage is often abusive - especially in history and in countries that haven't experienced the secular Western enlightenment that most developed countries have.


Responsible and wise sex is such a force for good that it should not be hindered (backwards), or forced (forwards) by legal contracts such as marriage.

Be sensible, be wise. Be sensible about sex, and wise about sex. Also, be sensible and wise about marriage. But don't confuse the two: Marriage is a completely different thing to sex; the former is an institution involved with politics and idealism; NOT something you want to tie up with sex unless you are really in a good relationship!

Immoral is what harms people; it is society that harms people by forcing superstitions about marriage upon people who it does not suit.

Think for yourself; don't let definitions and structures hinder relationships and exploration. Be honest, not legalistic!

Click for another debate on Universalism on my journal started by a different post (also in 2002).

In my eyes there is not an argument in your passages from Matthew and Luke promoting Universalism.

Matthew: The vineyard owner is giving people OPPORTUNITIES to work with the same reward no matter how hard they work. They have the CHOICE to turn down the offer of work and go their own way.

Luke: God does indeed reach into our lives and save us...but again it is our CHOICE to either carry on with God in our lives or go off and do our own thing again. - But that is not to say God wont go out and find us again and give us the same choices because he will TRY to save everyone...but you cannot save people who do not want to be saved.

I do commend you on your in depth research...even if it is taken out of context.

Relaunched with two new sections. (1) Added text on the arguments for and against universalism in the Quran. But it is largely a one-sided argument as the verses that condemn people to hell "forever" quite outnumber those that might imply the possibility that God will eventually save everyone. (2) Also I've added text on the difference between religions that claim to be universal, and those that don't.

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